This week, Rachel tells us the story of Belle Gunness, one of the most prolific serial killers in history and Kiki brings us this episode's missing person Cynthia Acevedo. It's episode 8, which means we discuss our true crime book pick "Among the Bros" by Max Marshall. And then segue into talking about spicy ginger cats and Jane Austen.
Our next book is "Unmask Alice: LSD, Satanic Panic, and the Imposter Behind the World's Most Notorious Diaries" by Rick Emerson. We'll discuss it in episode 12.
Sources:
For Cynthia Acevedo:
FBI: https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/kidnap/cynthia-acevedo
AZ Central: https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2023/12/08/fbi-seeking-information-about-missing-gila-river-woman/71856634007/
Belle Gunness:
The Serial Killer Podcast - Belle Gunness Part 1, 2, & 3
Chicago Tribune: https://www.chicagotribune.com/visuals/vintage/ct-viz-belle-gunness-seriel-killer-bluebeard-indiana-photos-20230420-lz4cfptembfobbatkg3sfe3cze-photogallery.html
Biography.com "Belle Gunness"
Legends of America "Hell's Belle" Gunness - Black Widow of the Midwest
Murderpedia.org "Belle Sorenson Gunness"
Socials:
Instagram: Details Are Sketchy - @details.are.sketchy
Facebook: Details Are Sketchy - @details.are.sketchy.2023
Instagram: Kiki - @kikileona84
Instagram: Rachel - @eeniemanimeenienailz
Email: details.are.sketchy.pod@gmail.com
This week, Rachel tells us the story of Belle Gunness, one of the most prolific serial killers in history and Kiki brings us this episode's missing person Cynthia Acevedo. It's episode 8, which means we discuss our true crime book pick "Among the Bros" by Max Marshall. And then segue into talking about spicy ginger cats and Jane Austen.
Our next book is "Unmask Alice: LSD, Satanic Panic, and the Imposter Behind the World's Most Notorious Diaries" by Rick Emerson. We'll discuss it in episode 12.
Sources:
For Cynthia Acevedo:
FBI: https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/kidnap/cynthia-acevedo
AZ Central: https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2023/12/08/fbi-seeking-information-about-missing-gila-river-woman/71856634007/
Belle Gunness:
The Serial Killer Podcast - Belle Gunness Part 1, 2, & 3
Chicago Tribune: https://www.chicagotribune.com/visuals/vintage/ct-viz-belle-gunness-seriel-killer-bluebeard-indiana-photos-20230420-lz4cfptembfobbatkg3sfe3cze-photogallery.html
Biography.com "Belle Gunness"
Legends of America "Hell's Belle" Gunness - Black Widow of the Midwest
Murderpedia.org "Belle Sorenson Gunness"
Socials:
Instagram: Details Are Sketchy - @details.are.sketchy
Facebook: Details Are Sketchy - @details.are.sketchy.2023
Instagram: Kiki - @kikileona84
Instagram: Rachel - @eeniemanimeenienailz
Email: details.are.sketchy.pod@gmail.com
I'm Kiki and I'm Rachel, and this is. Details Are Sketchy, a True Crime podcast, and this is episode eight, so it's also our book episode, so we'll talk about that after. Oh, I'm sorry.
Speaker 2:We're done.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're going to talk about Bill Gunnis, but I got to do my missing person first. Go for it, okay. Take it away, okay. So the missing person for today's episode is Cynthia Acevedo. She was born October 12, 1979. Her eyes are brown, Her hair is brown, her height is 5'4". Her weight at the time of her disappearance was 231 pounds. She is an indigenous person. Nobody listed the tribe, so I'm not sure exactly. She also has a scar on her left cheek and she was last seen in Levine, arizona.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you for letting us know about her, kiki, and we'll learn more details about her later in the episode. Right, so I for running you over earlier.
Speaker 1:You're just excited.
Speaker 2:I'm eager to get going on my crime today.
Speaker 2:It's an interesting one it is. Today I'm going to be talking about Bill Gunnis. So if you don't know who Bill Gunnis is, she was also known as Lady Bluebeard and Hell's Bells and if some accounts of her body count and now I don't mean her number of sexual partners are accurate, she may be the second most prolific female serial killer ever recorded, second only to Elizabeth Bathory. This Norwegian-born American serial killers Reign of Terror and Whitch. She Killed at least 14 victims, in some sources claim more than 40, lasted from 1884 to 1908. When she died in a massive house fire at the age of 48, or did she?
Speaker 2:To give you some background, bill Gunnis was born in I'm doing my best, so don't slaughter me here if I butcher this Brinheild Paul Stetter Storseth in Selbu, selbu, sortrandelag, norway. I put a little Norwegian flag in my outline. On November 11, 1859, the youngest of eight children born to her parents, paul Embedit Storseth, she was baptized in the Church of Norway, which I didn't even know was a thing, in 1874. At the age of 14, brinheild began working as a literal milkmaid, which is kind of fucking charming, and probably the one and only time we're going to have the opportunity to be charmed by anything else remotely related to this literal horror show of a woman, so let's take a moment to bask in it. She herded and milked cows on neighboring farms so she could save money to join her sister, nellie, in the United States. She was said to be a physically imposing woman, standing 5'9" and weighing over 200 pounds, and was said to be very strong.
Speaker 2:One unconfirmed but popular story about Brinheild and her youth was that at the age of 18, she had found herself pregnant by whom I don't know, and at that time she attended a local dance. While at the dance, she was assaulted and badly beaten by a man whose assault included kicking her in the stomach so hard it caused her to have a miscarriage. The unnamed man was from a wealthy family and the authorities didn't do anything about it. Of course, not who knew Brinheild said that after that, her personality underwent a significant change and not long after, the man who had an assaulted, brinheild died of allegedly stomach cancer. I have a question. Can you wait a second? Yes, did she hit her head? That's a speculation that I have, so there's not much details about the assault other than that he kicked her in the stomach and abdominal area. Okay, but yeah, that was part of my speculation as well, that he either hit her in the head or that possibly she fell down and struck her head somehow. Yeah, so was the man possibly the father and intended to cause a miscarriage so he wouldn't have to do his duty by Brinheild? Or was he just a random violent person? Did he kick Brinheild in the head during his assault or did she fall to the ground and strike her head during the assault? Of course, it's easy to speculate that the so-called stomach cancer may have been poisoning by Brinheild and the man may have been her first victim. We can only speculate, of course, but isn't the speculation fun? And while normally we don't want to assign those kinds of terms to homicide, it's hard to feel pity for a man who would assault a pregnant 18-year-old girl. However, it is very tragic that the possibility that these events may have led to the deaths of Brinheild's other, much more innocent victims.
Speaker 2:By 1881, brinheild had saved enough money to make the journey to New York. So when Brinheild was processed at Castle Garden, she decided to Americanize her name, as so many immigrants did, and changed her name to Belle, so now you don't have to hear me butcher her Norwegian name anymore. She then traveled to Chicago where there were a lot of immigrant communities and a Norwegian community as well, and her sister was living there and she moved in with her sister and her brother-in-law. During her time there, belle worked as a maid before getting a job in a butcher shop as an assistant helping to cut up animal carcasses. In 1884, belle met and married a man and you thought that I was done trying to say Norwegian things, but here's another one Mads Albert Sorensen.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's not bad, that's an easier one.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, that's easier. Love was in the air, for Belle Did it happily ever after away her. Two years after they were married, the couple opened up a candy shop, which sounds so wistful and delightful right yeah, Not wistful, whimsical, that's the word I'm thinking of. But unfortunately it wasn't very lucrative. And when it didn't seem like the business was going so well that the couple might find themselves in a real financial pickle, that candy shop suddenly burned down.
Speaker 1:Wait, can I ask what year this is? Again, I'm trying to picture the candy, sorry.
Speaker 2:So that would be in, I believe, 1886, because it says they married in 1884 and that the candy shop happened two years after. Okay, how odd and unfortunate for the Sorensens, but luckily they were able to collect their insurance on the building and use the money to buy a new home. So the couple was reported to have four children together Caroline, axel, myrtle and Lucy. However, two of Belle's babies died from inflammation of the large intestine. One source said ulcerative colitis. I'm not sure if that's the same thing. Their symptoms included nausea, fever, diarrhea, abdominal pain and cramping. Coincidentally, many types of poison have similar symptoms. And wouldn't you know? Both of these children had life insurance policies? Of course they did, from which the couple collected a couple of fat checks. You know, bad shit is afoot when they're taking out life insurance policies on babies, yep. And therefore their suspicions arise because the neighbors did not recall ever seeing Belle pregnant. However, I have to take that with a grain of salt, because she was known to be a larger woman and it can be harder to tell that someone is pregnant if they're already a bit large. A lot of people didn't know that I was pregnant with my second child on the side of me, so while it could definitely be possible, especially given the time, for her to just magic herself up some random babies to pass as her own, it's also possible that her neighbors just weren't able to recognize pregnancy in a woman with her stature and body type. On June 13, 1900, the census recorded Belle as the mother of four biological children, two deceased and two alive Myrtle A and Lucy B, and as the adopted mother of a ten-year-old daughter named Wargan Couch, who would later be renamed as Jenny Olsen.
Speaker 2:Belle's husband, mads Albert Sorensen, had a life insurance policy. His old policy was soon to expire, so he needed to take out a new one. There was one day in which both of his life insurance policies overlapped, in which they were both active simultaneously. On that day, july 30, 1900, sorensen suddenly died. The first doctor who saw his body thought that Sorensen had died of strict nine poisoning. Well, that conclusion just wouldn't do so. Belle got a second opinion with Sorensen's family doctor who had treated Sorensen for an enlarged heart. This doctor concluded that Sorensen had died from heart failure and since there was nothing untoward about his death, there was no reason to conduct an autopsy. Mads relatives did not agree and insisted that there be an inquiry into his death. They claimed Belle had poisoned Sorensen in order to collect his life insurance money. I wonder where they got a silly idea like that. However, no charges were ever filed.
Speaker 2:Belle received $8,500 total, which in today's money would be worth $320,462.55. And with this money she purchased the farm outside of Port Indiana. Not long after she made that purchase, the boat and carriage houses they had been living at burned to the ground. As Belle was making her arrangements to move to her brand new farm in Port Indiana, she happened to stumble upon an old acquaintance she had known from her time working in the butcher shop, a man named Peter Gunness, a fellow Norwegian ex-patriot and a recent widower, a butcher by trade. They had so much in common. Shortly after they were reunited, belle and Peter tied the knot in the Port Indiana in 1902. A mere week after the ceremony, belle was alone when Peter's baby daughter and I meet a literal infant, and the baby died unexpectedly of unknown causes.
Speaker 1:So it's not Belle's daughter. If Peter had another wife and had a baby, no, yes, and probably the mother died.
Speaker 2:Peter had a baby from his previous wife who had passed away, and Belle was alone in the house. So that baby and that baby mysteriously died just a week after their wedding. At that point I would have packed up my shit and left, yeah.
Speaker 1:Although would he have known about the mother? Two deaths, no, no.
Speaker 2:I suppose he didn't really have cause to suspect. And children died a lot during that time.
Speaker 2:Who would have known? But in December that same year Peter himself would die in an unexpected and tragic accident. According to Belle's recounting of the incident, he had been hit on the head by a heavy sausage grinder when it just happened to fall off a high shelf onto his head. How misfortune seems to follow Belle. I was feeling asshole-ish. How she must have been struck with grief to lose yet another husband so soon. When the coroner examined the body of Peter Gunness, he was said to have stated this is a case of murder. Furthermore, one of Belle's children allegedly told a classmate that her mother had hit her stepfather in the head with a cleaver. The police investigated but found Belle's story convincing and Belle, frankly, a little intimidating. They decided not to press charges against Belle Despite the fact that the district coroner had ruled Peter Gunness's death a homicide and even convened a coroner's jury. But authorities had already made up their minds to clear Belle of any suspicion of wrongdoing. Peter's death netted Belle another juicy life insurance check to the tune of $3,000 or $113,104.43 in today's value. A year after Peter's death his brother, goest, arrived and took custody of Peter's remaining daughter, a girl named Swanhield, taking her back with him to Wisconsin. She is the only child to live with Belle Gunness and survive. Good for you, uncle Goest.
Speaker 2:After the death of Peter Gunness, an era of suspicion hung over Belle. Locals simply didn't buy them Experienced professional butcher and hog farmer could meet with such a clumsy accidental death. However, belle had a surprise in store for everyone, because she was pregnant with Peter's child. On May 1, 1903, she gave birth to a son that she named Philip. In 1906, belle Gunness told some neighbors that her adopted daughter and I can't imagine a more unfortunate adoption situation for the poor girl Jenny Olson, previously known as Morgan Couch, had gone away to Lutheran College in Los Angeles. Other neighbors were told she had gone away to a finishing school. Her body would later be found among the other victims buried at the farm. Jenny was the child reputed to have made the careless comment to her classmate about her mother and the meat cleaver.
Speaker 2:In 1907, belle hired a farmhand named Rain Lamphere. Rumors quickly spread in the small community that their relationship would be on what was strictly professional Rightward, get drunk at the local watering hole and brag about sleeping with Belle. Those who heard were not impressed, as they viewed Belle as a plain and sturdy woman who often dressed in men's farm clothes and was known for butchering her own hogs. Belle, however, had a large sexual appetite and it turned out that Rain Lamphere didn't quite satisfy her itch, so as she put out a lonely heart's advertisement in the papers of nearby cities, belle was fishing for her next love slash victim and, lucky for listeners, I have that personal advertisement for your listening pleasure. Personal Comley Widow, who owes a large farm in one of the finest districts in La Porte County, indiana, desires to make the coindance of a gentleman equally well provided with a view of joining fortunes. No replies by letter considered unless sender is willing to follow answer with a personal visit. Triflors need not apply.
Speaker 2:It wasn't long before this suitor started arriving. One gentleman was a man by the name of John Moe, a man hailing from Elbow Lake, minnesota. He brought with him $1,000 to pay off Belle's mortgage, which today would be worth $37,701.48. Belle told friends and neighbors that he was her cousin who had come to stay with her. Within a week he had vanished. The next unlucky taker or lucky taker as you'll come to see was a man by the name of George Anderson, hailing from Tarquio, missouri. George was a little more savvy and he agreed to pay off Belle's mortgage, but on the condition that they first marry.
Speaker 2:One night, while sleeping in the guest room, george was awakened in the middle of the night to find Belle standing over him, staring at him with a candle in her hand, and a face so malevolent he was startled into a loud yell. When he yelled out, belle quickly turned and ran out of the room. During the entire event she had to remain completely silent. Anderson felt uneasy about the encounter and felt that Belle had meant to harm or even kill him. He was a man with great instincts. He immediately got up, dressed and left right. Then in the middle of the night, leaving his things behind.
Speaker 2:He took the first train back home to Missouri and never sent for his things or contacted Belle again. Cheers to you, george. Your quick thinking and sharp instincts kept you alive. That and a little luck, george Anderson, would be the only one of Belle Gunnice's suitors to escape. This next victim was a widower of a distinguished age by the name of Ole B Budsburg. I'm not sure. I don't think that's supposed to be Norwegian, ole, ole, I don't know, I don't know Oli Oli maybe it's spelled O-L-E From Iowa, wisconsin.
Speaker 2:He was last sighted at the La Porte Savings Bank on April 7, 1907, where he mortgaged the deed to his land in exchange for several thousand dollars. When his sons wrote to Belle looking for their father, she informed them that he had never shown up to her farm Around this time Belle had started regularly ordering deliveries of large trunks to the farm. A hack driver which is sometimes used to mean taxi driver, but in this time and place probably referred to its original meaning of the driver of a hackney carriage Clyde Sturges delivered many of these trunks to goodness. He commented on the strength of the robust woman, saying she could lift these heavy trunks easily quote like boxes of marshmallows and would sling them up on her shoulder to carry them inside. They don't really describe the trunks. I imagine they're maybe like big, steamer trunks, trunks large enough to maybe hold the body inside.
Speaker 1:Yeah, their trunks were pretty big back then, there are few cases of people hiding bodies in trunks, or maybe she cut them up a little bit.
Speaker 2:Well she did. We'll get into that, but still I imagine that Clyde Sturges wouldn't be impressed unless they were big, heavy trunks Right. Her house was shuttered up day and night and neighboring farmers who traveled past her farm at night sometimes saw her digging in the hogpen. Here let's go with Ollie. Ollie B Budsburg.
Speaker 2:Several other men arrived and disappeared at Bell's farm and we don't know exactly who these men are. There's a list of some missing men, but some of those men weren't ever positively identified. So but what we do know is that in December of 1907, bell started corresponding with a farmer from Aberdeen, south Dakota, a bachelor, a bachelor named Andrew Hilgelien. They exchanged a number of letters, but one particular letter from Bell, dated January 13, 1908, swept poor, unassuming Andrew off his feet. The letter was recovered from the Hilgelien farm and reads as follows Okay, here we go.
Speaker 2:Okay, to the dearest friend in the world. No woman in the world is happier than I am. I know that you are now to come to me and be my own. I can tell from your letters that you are the man I want. It does not take one long to tell when to like a person, and you I like better than anyone in the world, I know. Think how we will enjoy each other's company. You, the sweetest man in the whole world. We will be all alone with each other. Can you conceive of anything nicer? I think of you constantly when I hear your name mentioned, and this is when one of the dear children speaks of you, or I can hear myself humming it with the words of an old love song. It is beautiful music to my ears. My heart beats in wild rapture for you. My Andrew, I love you. Come prepared to stay forever.
Speaker 1:Oh, racy and terrifying yeah.
Speaker 2:When I read that last line it gave me chills. Yeah, she was absolutely a ruthless, cold-blooded predator For sure. Poor unsuspecting Hilgelien was cast under her spell and he rushed to get to her in January 1908. He brought with him his life savings in the form of a cheque for $2,900, or $99,826.95 in today's currency. A few days after his arrival, him and Belle were seen at the La Porte Savings Bank depositing poor Hilgelien's fat cheque into Belle's account.
Speaker 2:However, while Andrew Hilgelien was just another means to an end for Belle Gunness, he would unwittingly spell trouble for her. Her farmhand, ray Lampere, remember him. He had fallen in love with Belle. Why the fuck ever for, we don't know. But he did. Ray would do anything for Belle, take on any chore, even the gruesome ones. He was her little minion and not the cutesy yellow capsule-shaped ones. But despite having an insider's perspective on the farm, he was growing increasingly jealous of Belle's suitors, and Hilgelien proved to be the last straw. When Belle introduced Andrew Hilgelien to Ray as her intended husband, he threw a tantrum. Belle fired him on the spot. Soon after Belle was seen again at the bank depositing another $1,200. But this time Andrew Hilgelien was not in her company, nor would he ever be again. This next move was to appear at the La Porte Courthouse to declare that her former employee, ray Lampere, was of unsound mind and a public menace. She was able to convince the local authorities to hold a semi-hearing against Ray, but that backfired on her because Lampere was found to be seen and released on his own recognizance.
Speaker 2:A few days later, belle was back again to try a new tactic. This time she told authorities that Lampere had visited on her farm and started an argument which she meant threats against her family. This time she succeeded in getting Lampere arrested for trespassing. But that didn't last long. Ray Lampere posed a significant threat to Belle. He knew what she had done and now he had caused to use that information against her. He was an unpredictable threat. Lampere returned to her farm repeatedly, over and over, and she drove him away. I wonder why she didn't kill him, but I guess she knew that the connection would have been too obvious, since the community was already suspicious of her after the death of her second husband. That's why she was killing victims that she'd drawn from surrounding states. In any case, lampere threatened to go public with what he knew Once he'd come into another local farmer, william Slater Helguin won't bother me no more. We fixed him for good. I wonder what it was about Helguin that bothered him more than the other ones, since to Belle, he was just another victim.
Speaker 2:I don't know. I guess we'll never know Anyway. So during this time Belle wasn't put off from fishing for new victims. In March 1908, gwyneth proposed a proposition, a horse dealer in Topeka, kansas. Via a series of letters she invited the man, a gentleman named Lon Townsend, to visit her. He was amenable to the idea but deferred to visit until the warmer spring months. He never made the visit because the fire on Belle's farm occurred before his scheduled visit. Belle was also working on luring in an unnamed potential victim from Arkansas to whom she had sent a letter on May 4th 1908. But he too did not make the trip due to the fire, allegedly.
Speaker 2:Belle Gwyneth also proposed to another man during that period named Bert Albert, but seemed to have dropped the idea when she learned that he wasn't wealthy. Richard Helglien's brother, o'shle Helglien wrote Bert Gwyneth searching for word on his brother. Gwyneth responded that Andrew wasn't with her and suggested that he had traveled back to Norway to visit his relatives. O'shle responded he didn't think it was likely Andrew would do that and he thought it was likely he was still in the area in which he had last been seen, around La Porte. Belle boldly suggested that if he wanted to come and conduct a search for his brother. It would be expensive. She was willing to help if O'Shle would pay her for her time and efforts. O'shle Helglien would come to La Porte, but not until after the fire. Between the threats presented by Raedlem Fear and Andrew Helglien, belle Gwyneth felt the walls closing in Her crimes, if revealed, could send her to the gallows. She talked to a lawyer in La Porte named ME La Litter that she feared for her life and the life of her children. She asked to drop a will, which she did, in which she left her entire estate to her children. What a saint. She then went to the La Porte Bank and paid off the mortgage to her farm. She did not go to the authorities or place any more complaints against Ray Lamphere for his alleged threats. It was likely these new allegations were false and merely made up by Bell to point the finger away from herself for her impending arson.
Speaker 2:In the early hours of April 28, 1908, gunis' new farm hen Joe Maxson woke to the smell of smoke in his second-floor room in the Gunis' home. When he opened the door to his room he was met with a solid wall of flames. He called out for Bell and her children. To no response, he closed the bedroom door again and jumped out the second story of his bedroom in his underwear, escaping narrowly with his life. As the flames quickly consumed the house, he ran to town for help but of course in those days help was slow in coming. By the time the fire brigade arrived at the farm, all that was left was a pile of smoking ruins. The remains of four bodies were recovered from the ruins Gunis' three remaining children still in their beds and the body of a woman who could not be identified as Gunis because the body was missing its head. The head was never found.
Speaker 2:Everyone in town had heard about Ray Lampier's alleged threats against the Gunis' family, including the county sheriff. The lawyer Lalita came forward to give a statement about the story Bell Gunis had told him and her son's desire to draw a will. When the sheriff's smutzer found Ray Lampier, he was said to have asked quote did Widow Gunis and the kids get out all right End quote. Before he could even be told what had happened, however, he denied having anything to do with the fire. A teenager named John Solium said he saw Lampier running away from the Gunis' farm shortly before the house exploded into flames. Ray Lampier was arrested and charged with murder and arson.
Speaker 2:When investigators began to dig deeper into the evidence, they found some disturbing inconsistencies. A neighboring farmer refused to identify the charred remains as Bell Gunis and stated the remains were not those of his neighbor. Multiple neighbors and friends of Bell Gunis, some of them even dating back to Chicago, testified the body did not belong to her. Furthermore, when doctors measured the body and estimated what the total height of the body would be if it were intact, they estimated the body to be a woman of 5'3 and weighing about 150 pounds. However, bell Gunis was widely known as a woman standing over 5'8 and weighing around 200 pounds. Measurements of the dead woman's body were taken and compared to the clothing measurements on file for Bell Gunis at a number of La Porte shops. The conclusion was that the deceased woman could not have been Bell Gunis, even taking into consideration shrinking or wasting of the body due to fire damage, when a La Porte doctor sent the internal organs of the body to a pathologist in Chicago, it was found they contained lethal amounts of the poison Strick Nine.
Speaker 2:Despite this evidence that the body found did not belong to Bell Gunis, there was a separate piece of evidence found in the ruins that would lead to the body being declared to be the body of Gunis. After all, gunis Dentist said that if teeth or dental work belonging to the body were located, he would be able to positively identify whether it belonged to Bell Gunis. On May 19th 1908, a miner who had been hired to sift through the debris with a sluice found a piece of dental bridge work which included two human K-19s with roots attached, with porcelain teeth and gold crowns in between. The dentist Norton was able to identify this piece as a belonging to Gunis and so, despite other evidence to the contrary, the coroner concluded that the body found in the burned remains of the Gunis farmhouse belonged to that of Bell Gunis. Shortly afterward, o'shley Hegelin arrived in La Porte and informed the sheriff that he believed his brother had been the victim of foul play at the hands of Gunis. Joe Maxim, the new farmhand, also came forward to report that while working for Gunis, she had instructed him to cart wheelbarrows of dirt to the large Finston area where the hogs were fed. In that area there were many depressions in the ground. Bell had told him that the depressions contained garbage and instructed him to level the ground, which he did. The sheriff recruited a dozen man crew and they began to dig through the farm. On May 3, 1908, they unearthed the body of Jenny Olsen and two unidentified children. Shortly after that the body of Andrew Hegelin was discovered. It was later found that Ray Lampier had possession of his overcoat.
Speaker 2:More and more bodies were found in Bell Gunis hogpen, including the remains of all the men mentioned earlier in the story. Some more victims that were included were Thomas Lindbow, who had moved from Chicago three years earlier to work for Gunis. Harry Gurgholt from Scandinavia, wisconsin, who had traveled to marry her a year ago, bringing her $1,500. He was identified by his watch. Olaf Svengerud of Chicago and Olaf Lindblum from Wisconsin. So here I picked out a sampling of possible victims that were not positively confirmed because many of the bodies could not be positively identified. But these were compelling stories that seem to indicate that these people may have been Bell Gunis' victims. And there were other names on the list that didn't have stories attached that I didn't include, not because of course those names don't matter, but because of brevity, for brevity's sake.
Speaker 2:Christy Hilken of Dovera, barron County, wisconsin. He sold his farm and came to La Port in 1906. Charles Nieberg, a Scandinavian immigrant from Philadelphia. He told his friends he was going to see Gunis in June of 1906. He never returned. He had been working at a saloon and took $500 with him.
Speaker 2:John H McJunkin, who lived near Pittsburgh, disappeared after he left his wife after corresponding with a La Port woman. Olaf Jensen, a Norwegian immigrant from Carroll, indiana, wrote to his relatives in 1906 that he was going to marry a wealthy widow in La Port. Bert Chase, a Mishawaka Indiana, sold his butcher shop and told his friends he was going to look up a wealthy widow he had met. His brother received a telegram, allegedly from Aberdeen, south Dakota, that said Bert had been killed in a train wreck, but when the brother investigated he found that the telegram was made up. A hired man named George Bradley was alleged to go to La Port to meet a widow with three children in October 1907. T G Tiefling, a Minneapolis, allegedly went to see Gunis in 1907.
Speaker 2:John E Hunter, a Pennsylvania, disappeared on November 25, 1907 after telling his daughters he was going to marry a wealthy widow in Northern Indiana. Abraham Phillips, a railwayman from Burlington, west Virginia, left home in the winter of 1907 to marry a rich widow. A railway watch was found in the debris of Bel Gunis home. Benjamin Carling of Chicago, illinois, last seen by his wife in 1907 after telling her he was going to secure an investment with a rich widow. He brought $1,000 with him and may have secured additional money to invest along the way. In June 1908, his wife positively identified his remains, based on the contour of a partial skull and three teeth.
Speaker 2:Because of the rough recovery, the number of the bodies on the farm could not be absolutely determined, but it was believed to be around 12. So Ray Lamphere was arrested on charges of murder and arson on May 22, 1908. His defense leaned heavily towards the argument that the body of the headless woman was not that of Bel Gunis. Lamphere's defense lawyer called a local jeweler as an expert witness who testified that although many pieces of gold found within the household from the plating on watches to jewelry the gold crowns in the bridge work allegedly belonging to Bel Gunis remained relatively undamaged. When local doctors tried to replicate the conditions of the fire by placing a similar style of bridge work into a blacksmith's forge, the result was that the real teeth disintegrated, the porcelain teeth became severely pitted and the gold melted. In addition, the hired hand, joe Maxim, and another unnamed man both testified that they had seen the sheriff remove the piece of bridge work from his pocket and plant it at the scene before it's alleged discovery. Ray Lamphere was acquitted of the charge of murder but was found guilty for arson and sentenced to 20 years. He wouldn't get to serve out much of his sentence, however, because he died of tuberculosis in 1909.
Speaker 2:In 1910, the Reverend E A Schell, who had attended Ray Lamphere when he was sick and dying, came forward to make the deceased Lamphere's confessions public. In his confession, lamphere spoke of Gunis' crimes and swore that she was still alive. Lamphere told the Reverend that he did not kill anyone but that he had assisted Gunis in burying many bodies. Lamphere said when one of her victims arrived, she would welcome him and make him feel comfortable. She would cook for him and charm him. Then she would drug his coffee and when he wasn't a drug induced state, she would split his head with a meat cleaver. Other times she would wait for her victim to go to bed and then, entering his room with a candle Some familiar. Like the account of the man who escaped, she would drug him with chloroform, carry the sleeping man to the basement, strap him to a table and dismember him, then bury the body parts in the hogpin and around the grounds.
Speaker 2:According to Lamphere, thanks to her second husband, peter Gunis the Butcher, she was an expert at dissecting bodies. We'll also remember that she herself had spent time working at a butcher shop. That's how she met Gunis in the first place. Sometimes, he said, she would just directly poison her victims coffee with strychnine. Sometimes, he reported, she would dispose of the bodies in ways besides burials. Some of those ways were using quick lime, in some instances in the hog, like the vat that they would, I guess, boil off the hogs after slaughter. And occasionally he reported, when she was feeling particularly tired, she would simply feed the body parts directly to her pigs.
Speaker 1:Oh, that is like one of my worst nightmares, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then the people would eat those pigs. Yeah, yum. Lamphere reported that the headless woman found in the burnt house was a woman who Gunis had brought from Chicago under the guise of hiring her on as a housekeeper only a few days before the fire. Once she arrived, gunis had drugged her, bashed her head in, decapitated her and, attaching weights to her head, had sunk it into a swamp. Then she chloroformed her children and dragged them in the headless corp into the basement. I didn't know if that meant Gunis' children or the housekeeper's children, since there were two unidentified children found in the pig pen. It could be that the housekeeper had children that she brought in, that brought brought, and that Gunis had disposed of them that way. Yeah, but also she could have killed or knocked her own kids out with chloroform and then planted them back in their beds. Right, you can't really put anything past her. She was absolutely cold-blooded and she never hesitated to kill her own kids. So, like it was nothing, lamphere reported that Gunis dressed the housekeeper in her clothes and set her false teeth teeth beside the corpse to add to the connection that the body was Gunis. Lamphere admitted to helping Gunis start the fire, but she screwed him over one last time, escaping in the opposite direction to where they were supposed to meet. Lamphere told the Reverend he estimated Gunis had killed 42 men and that she had taken money from each of them ranging from $1,000 to $32,000. He estimated she had about a quarter of a million dollars to her name, or about $8.6 million today. Wow, and a few days before the fire, belgunis had withdrawn nearly all of her money.
Speaker 2:In the years following, many people claimed to have sighted Belgunis in cities across the United States. The sightings of her were reported in Chicago, san Francisco, new York and Los Angeles. She was also reported to be living on a bunch of land in Mississippi. However, we're going to explore the most interesting possible connection right now, which, if you're familiar with this case, you probably know was a woman named Esther Carlson.
Speaker 2:In 1931, a woman named Esther Carlson was arrested in Los Angeles after the suspicious death of her husband's best friend. August Lindstrom died suddenly and unexpectedly, and examinations concluded that he had enough arsenic in his system to have killed 40 men. Esther was a surprising beneficiary of his estate, and evidence was later found indicating that she had purchased the poison. Men in Esther's life had a mysterious way of meeting there on timely ends. Her first husband, a man named Charles Hansen, had drowned nine months after the start of their marriage. Her second husband, named Charles Carlson, whom she married in 1911, had passed away in 1925 after an illness ruled a stomach cancer but plausibly poisoning. A man living with her family passed away from alleged suicide by Stricknein ingestion.
Speaker 2:A February 28, 1931 article in the Los Angeles Times suggested a similarity between Gunness and another California woman, but later on in the article noted the similarities between Gunness and Esther Carlson as well. Esther denied that she was Belgunas, stating that she held from Sweden, not Norway, and she was too young to be Gunness. While awaiting trial for the murder of Lindstrom, carlson died of tuberculosis. Authorities tried to examine her body in order to identify whether she was Gunness, but an identity could not be made. One LaPorte resident said quote both women possessed the same peculiar twist of the mouth and had the same high cheekbones and eyes. End quote A photograph of three children was found in Esther's trunk. Two witnesses testified that the children looked like Belgunas' children. Esther Carlson had claimed to have no children. Both women used Stricknein and arsenic to kill their victims. Both women lured men into their homes with promises of marriage before killing them.
Speaker 2:One researcher, however, believes that he has found a few discrepancies that may put a pin on the Belgunas is Esther Carlson. Theory Researcher Knut Erich Jensen found that some prior names for Esther Carlson included Augusta Carlson, augusta Esther Hansen and Augusta and Esther Johnson. He concluded her full name when she immigrated to the US was probably Esther Augusta Johnson. A 1910 census from Arizona listed Esther as 30 and a 1920 census from California and her listed as 40. If these records are accurate, that would make Esther 20 years younger than Belgunas, who was 48 at the time of her alleged death slash disappearance in 1908. Still, it wouldn't be the first time a female murderer had shaved a seemingly ridiculous amount of time off her age. We're looking at you, glad I spread herst.
Speaker 2:However, the record of Esther Johnson marrying her first husband is dated from 1907. That's the year before Gunas' disappearance, a year that she was known to be in La Porte, indiana. Additionally, a Michael Burns who claimed to have been Esther's brother-in-law identified the body as being that of his sister-in-law and his wife's maiden name was Johnson. So Esther may not have been Belgunas after all. However, a descendant of Esther Carlson's victim, august Lindstrom, and a descendant of Belgunas' sister, nelly are believers and a Nuuk Eret. Janssen himself admits that if Belgunas killed the original Esther and stole her identity, then that would still leave the possibility that the Esther who killed Lindstrom was Belgunas and from everything we've learned about Belgunas well, I wouldn't put it past her. All right, that's the end of my Wow. Okay, so let me give my sources real quick. So La Porte County, harold Dispatch, murderpedia, legends of America, biographycom, the Chicago Tribune and the Serial Killer podcast, belgunas, part one and two, nice.
Speaker 1:What'd you think? Well, she's terrifying, for sure.
Speaker 2:Definitely. It's absolutely chilling how ruthless and cold-blooded she was. Just yeah, the variety and the quantity of people that she killed, the way that she was basically anyone means to an end to her Like if you had something she wanted, she would kill you for it.
Speaker 2:It didn't matter if you were her kid, it didn't matter who you were, if she didn't care. It seemed like she had no, completely emotionless. I mean, it can't be right. It can't be emotionless, but no consciousness, no empathy for her, even her own kids. That's what I think about that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's a novel that came out a few years ago, called In the Garden of Spite, about her, and I think the undercurrent is that she did that because of female rage. I don't know, though. I mean, why would you kill children if you're angry, although maybe the children were a visible symbol of being a woman at that time? You don't have the freedom to be what you want to be. You're tied to husband and children and home.
Speaker 2:Well, it seemed like she kept her children around until they became inconvenient to her. And then she was ready to kill them at the drop of a hat. But if you have seen that portrait of her sitting with her like three kids, she doesn't look very pleased. She looks quite put upon like guess, I'm sitting the fuck here with these fucking kids.
Speaker 1:Do you know when it was taken?
Speaker 2:I do not know when it was taken. I guess I could look that up right now.
Speaker 1:It's not that important. I was just wondering because it used to take a really long time to take a picture.
Speaker 2:But it shows her with three kids I imagine it was taken sometime 19-0 something Because it shows her with the three two girls and one boy and the boy she had with her second husband that she killed. So I imagine it was taken sometime after his death and after she killed her adopted daughter as well, because there's just three kids in the portrait.
Speaker 1:She's definitely a greedy lady.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely Like unquenchable. But I mean, clearly she also just enjoyed killing. I mean she worked at a butcher shop and then she opened a hog farm and butchered her own hogs, so she seemed to just enjoy killing as well. So I don't think it was entirely about the money, but I think it was like if I'm gonna be doing this, I might as well get as much out of it as I can. Yeah, that's an interesting thing. What is the getting, getting that money aspect? Yeah, and it seems like that's something that we seen from more than one female serial killer is like getting the money getting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, it's hard to be a woman not saying don't, don't become a serial killer. Right Well they're like how can I?
Speaker 1:maximize this? No, it is. It's hard to be a woman and marriage is terrible for women. Yep, Not that you should kill. You shouldn't kill. Don't do that.
Speaker 2:But if you're someone like Belgunis, I guess, yeah, luring men in with as much money as possible and yeah, she took advantage of the time, I mean, women weren't really convicted of things like that. Yep, although very often, like they said, she was worried that she would go to the gallows. I'm sure if they had found yeah, found her guilty, found all those bodies on her property, she definitely would have been a candidate for it.
Speaker 1:It certainly, although she could have been let off if she went to a trial to depending.
Speaker 2:Yeah they could have. She could have plenty sanity or something like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's really hysteria, right, and juries were all male and they tended to go pretty easy on women. If her defense attorney could come up with a good weepy story.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, she didn't seem like a very weepy woman. No, she didn't.
Speaker 1:No, she didn't Okay, is that it?
Speaker 2:I thought that was very intriguing about that. I hadn't found that information, about that much information about Esther Carlson before, dating back prior to Belgunis' disappearance. But I do still think it's possible. I mean, the picture is, she's much thinner, she's much more haggard looking, but there is a very, very strong resemblance between them. And although they said that she was identified, the person who identified her was her brother-in-law, and I have to wonder how well did he know her? When was the last time you saw her? Right, you know? And if you look at the pictures as well, belgunis would have been 71 in 1931, had she survived. Esther Carlson was supposed to be 51. The photo looked like a bit hard-worn for 51. I mean, it was a hard time, yeah, but she looks quite hard-worn for a 51-year-old woman, in my opinion. So Possible, it's possible. If not, it's quite a coincidence that these two women would have all these similarities and look so much alike, I mean.
Speaker 2:But the world's a funny place, I guess the truth is stranger than fiction. Blah, blah, blah. Okay, let's move on All right.
Speaker 1:So back to the missing person, cynthia Acevedo. So she was last seen on or about August 15, 2019, walking near Levine, arizona. Her mother reported her missing to the Agua River Police Department on August 31 of that year. As she had not been heard from for approximately two weeks, which was considered unusual, investigators find the circumstances surrounding her disappearance and potential death to be suspicious. Right A reward of up to $5,000 is being offered by the FBI for information that leads to the indictment, arrest and conviction of the individual or individuals responsible for her disappearance and potential death. That's all the information I got from her, and all of this information comes from the FBI website on her. But also AZ Central wrote a little thing, but they basically copied the FBI website and the AZ Central thing came out not too many days ago, in December, so it seems to be pretty up to date. Yeah, but they didn't really go to D2.
Speaker 2:Okay. Do you want to give the number? Is there a number?
Speaker 1:Oh sure, although I didn't copy it down, go me. All it says is if you have any information concerning the persons, please contact your local FBI office or the nearest American Embassy or consulate. Okay, this particular poster from the FBI comes from the Phoenix Field Office. Okay, then we're on to the book. Yes, we're on to our bros. What did you think, kiki? I actually liked it. I mean, there were issues, but like there was a lot of detail about the partying which I could have done without. Yeah, it took them a long time to get to any of the crime. Yes, not just the murder, but any of it really.
Speaker 1:Right, but other than that, I found it interesting. Yeah, you said something about are we supposed to feel sorry for these privileged people. Yes, what was your term that you used? Oh God.
Speaker 2:I don't remember. I can probably look over the other one. Oh, it's not important these privileged assholes?
Speaker 1:probably they're something along those lines. Yeah, let's see. Was I supposed to care about these privileged, arrogant little fuckheads? I hadn't finished the book at that point. I was only about a quarter of the way through, but I didn't, and I didn't get that either.
Speaker 2:Well, thanks, phon. At some points I felt like the author was a little bit in love with that, a little bit in love with Fratt Life. It seemed like he really liked the Mikey guy, like he was pals with him. He was waxing on about his elaborate like going away party and how they spent so much money on like the fanciest lobster place and when he got drunk at like this strip club and I was just rolling my goddamn eyes, I know At all. And then before that he got to spend what, how long at the stupid golf resort His parents like golf resort house.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I didn't see the author like admiring that part, but the Fratt stuff yes, but he was also a frat boy, so I'm sure he's having some college nostalgia there.
Speaker 2:Not admiring, but like. I mean admiring the Fratt life, but like toward not admiring, like that life, because he also has that kind of life and those kinds of experience, minus the jail stuff. But excessive sympathy, excessive, what's the word? Allegiance?
Speaker 1:See, I didn't get that I didn't get the first part, like allegiance. Yes, I mean, he was a frat boy himself and perhaps he might be a little bit defensive, since fraternities have not been doing so hot in terms of the media and how people think of them, right, but I think he was also critical of it, like he was not just aware of the racism and the toxic masculinity and all that includes. I mean, he did mention several times the classism and elitism.
Speaker 1:He mentioned it, but I think he could have been a little more Well. He left the reader to make that connection for a lot of the book, but it was there. He explicitly says it at the end.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But he makes the reader make those connections for themselves. For a lot of it I think he puts a lot of trust in the reader to be to make a lot of connections.
Speaker 2:That he doesn't outright say I think you're more generous towards the author than I am.
Speaker 1:Well, look, I wasn't at first. I mean I'm not saying that I have any sympathy at all for the frat boys or that I like the frat. I think Greek life is ridiculous and that partying I mean I was just rolling my eyes at all of that. But then I caught myself and I was like you know, for two years I went to a school that was intellectually rigorous and they don't have frat life and they don't have sports and stuff like that. But I was thinking, you know, yeah, we studied the great books and we were pretentious assholes and we did all that stuff. But we also had a weekend long party at the end of the year. We partied hard.
Speaker 1:The saying there was we party as hard as we study, which is to say a lot. We just wrapped it up in an intellectual bow, you know. So, like, one of the main parties is the symposium party. So freshman year, after you discuss Plato symposium in seminar, everybody goes and they get as drunk as they possibly can on red wine and then they drunkenly say a lot of bullshit about what love is, because that's what the symposium is about, right, but I mean it's really just an excuse to drink and smoke a lot of pot and party. So I guess I can't really. I guess at that point I was like, well, I can't judge their actions too terribly much. I mean it's different, but I also can't judge. I mean I was very much part of all of that.
Speaker 2:You know, I'm not saying that fraternities are certainly not the only vehicle for toxic classism and elitism. No, I wasn't saying that either. Yeah, I know you're not. Intellectual academia is definitely also big, has a big part in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I do what I'm. What I was trying to say is that I can't judge them for parting so hard, which was what I was doing when I was reading. It was being very judgy, did you, did you?
Speaker 2:ever go out and get bottle service, spend like $36,000?
Speaker 1:No, obviously obviously, obviously they were on a different level in terms of money and privilege and all of that stuff. I mean, I went to a school that was very expensive, but I was not somebody you know like I wasn't the. I think one of the kids that went to the school was like the son or grandson of the people who owned borders, which was a big bookstore at the time, and I think something somebody was related to, like a Pepsi CEO or something. So there were rich kids, but no, we were not out there spending that kind of money. What I what I just mean is that I was judging them for being stupid and partying the way that they partied.
Speaker 1:Yeah when I went to like I'm better because I went to a different school and you know we did all these things I let my pretentious asshole out. But really I mean I at 18, 19, 20, I party just as hard as them.
Speaker 2:Yeah you know it's not, it's not the, you know, quote, unquote stupidity, Although it does seem at times that it's intentional, like I don't really have to go to class, I don't really have to study because I'm rich as fuck and I can do whatever I want, yeah, kind of attitude. But it's, it's not that so much as yeah, just the excessive privilege and just the. You know, we, they can talk about like, oh look, there's racism, oh look these, these frats are almost exclusively white and they have, you know, an unspoken policy to exclude members of color and they have racist chance and there is rampant sexual assault and there's rampant drug dealing and these kids are getting away and getting away, getting away. And what was pissing me off was the which I guess in part was the stupid police departments policy was that they kept catching kids and those kids can make a deal to turn in the next kid.
Speaker 2:Who can make a deal to turn in the next kid? Who can make a deal to turn in the next kid. And then the only kid who ended up serving any significant time was the Mikey kid, which, look, in general, I don't. I believe that all recreational drugs could, should, be legalized, not because I think that they're safer. Good, necessarily, but because I think that there's more, lots more problems with having them be illegal than having them be legal, and I think that they should be dealt with as a health crisis and not a criminal crisis. But the fact that black and brown people are being institutionalized I'm going to get upset.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, they get institutionalized at a much higher rate and they tend to get much higher and much more egregious sentences.
Speaker 2:And yes, for sure.
Speaker 1:There is racism in the legal system as well.
Speaker 2:And that only one of these kids saw any kind of jail time and that they're. They're Paul. Their stupid policy was that, oh, if we make a deal, that we are going to get to the top of the drug ring, but they're not going to get to the top of the drug ring because, like they pointed out, once they got to the Mikey kid, he couldn't turn in the next guy up right without being killed and that shit, yeah, and so it's not a good policy and it's just letting all these other kids, yeah, walk away. And the other thing that pissed me off is they that Rob I don't know how to say his last name right, they, they gave him a reduced sentence under some stupid youth clause.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and he, he didn't even qualify. First of all, the youth clause was like 18 to 25 years. That's not a youth. That's not a youth, and for black and brown people, they're never considered a youth at that age. Yeah, and he didn't even qualify for it because he was 26. And yet he got to serve 24 months in some like baby prison.
Speaker 1:Well, when the crime was committed, he was within that range, though.
Speaker 2:All right that's true, but he's still a grown man.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, I agree.
Speaker 2:He's still a grown man.
Speaker 1:I agree, I agree with all of that. It was ridiculous, you know, and it's because they're privileged and because he's related to, or at least has the same name as a very important person in South Carolina.
Speaker 2:And the one who pissed me off the most was the Zach Klingman guy. Oh, I know, and he had been. He was arrested over the course of the book like six times, yeah, with massive amounts of drugs, yeah, massive amounts. And that biggest arrest he had 3.5 million counterfeit Xanax pills, one and a half pounds, yeah, of cocaine, and he got no time. He got two years probation. And then he was arrested again for domestic violence, yeah, and he got time served. And this was also the guy who was implicated as being behind the murder and the police refused to even investigate him. Yeah, even though lots of people said this is a big enemy of the victim, yeah, and he was afraid of this guy and they didn't even investigate.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I wonder, I wonder what he has, because he's not a privileged kid, he doesn't. He's not like Mikey, he doesn't come from money.
Speaker 2:Because they said his, his dad, owned a joke shop. I told I was telling, because I was telling Jay that I was like I don't understand how this kid keeps getting away because his dad is just the owner of a joke shop. And Jay said that sounds like a front.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, well, I mean, that's kind of what I was thinking Like. He's either a informant or something. Yeah, but they called him the Charleston Kingpin and he didn't get anything, I know, and they also at the time didn't have what the author kept referring to it as his annex law, which a lot of states I don't think had it at the time. I think it's a more recent thing when, if they, had.
Speaker 2:They had whatever, like 5000 pills. It's the same as having a handful. Up to infinity pills, right yeah.
Speaker 1:Ridiculous. It is ridiculous. We didn't even really talk about the crimes. I I found it interesting how these young kids and they're young and at 40, I'm going to call the 20 year olds kids, you know. I mean I look back at my, what I was doing at 2021 and I was not an adult. I may have legally been an adult, but I was not making good decisions.
Speaker 2:And, yes, I can recognize that your brain isn't fully mature until you're around the age of 24 or 25, but what I'm pointing out is the disparity yes, no, I understand that I'm not. I'm not the the infantilization of White young adults compared to the adultification of black and brown young adults.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I understand that. I wasn't going against that, I was just saying their kids. My grander point, or bigger point, was that these young people, these kids, are so able to Become such huge Drug dealers you know like how, how about network has I?
Speaker 1:Mean, I mean it's being run by young people. You know, like I mean, I this all Kept making me think of like some of my college days. Right, like we had a bit of big. We had a bit of a drug scandal on the campus that I went to and a kid Got caught with pills yeah uh, drugs, I forget what See as an enough that it was going to cause this person problems, right, right, so they made the deal. Where did you buy these from? And it was another fellow student right.
Speaker 1:But I mean, this is like a small network. I mean it was just a Handful of things. It wasn't like millions of dollars worth of stuff right in this huge scheme. I think that's what is just so mind-blowing. Yeah, just how big the thing was it's not, it's not the usual Small campus knowing that usually happens.
Speaker 1:It's huge and it was all people under 25. That's insane. So about the murders? So okay, so this whole book I don't even think we summarized it, did we know? So this whole book is About a. That's what you supposed to read along. Yeah, it's about a sea of sea. What is that? College of Charleston, college of Charleston Fraternity that got caught up? Kappa alpha fraternity order. Order it technically so technically it wasn't a fraternity even though it's a fraternity, gentlemen or some.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolute crock of shit. Yeah, it's bullshit, but these young frat boys got or masterminds and got caught up in this huge drug ring right or drug empire, whatever they were huge. And on the Side of this that is still a part of it there is a young man, young boy, patrick, who also goes to the school, not part of a fret right.
Speaker 2:No, I don't believe that yeah, as part of a fret.
Speaker 1:He was one of the Zaks dealers until he got picked up.
Speaker 2:It seemed like everybody was a goddamn dealer, like all of his fucking housemates were dealers, yeah. Who wasn't a goddamn dealer?
Speaker 1:Yeah, um in the book. So he got caught up and Zat and this, that guy believed that he had snitched.
Speaker 2:He had been caught like selling cocaine, yeah, at a football game, and what happened was that he was supposed to wait for this that guy to hire him. His attorney sent his attorney to represent him, but his Parents sent their attorney instead, and so that made the Zack guy believe or at least Patrick Believed that the Zack guy believed that that would make him an informant right.
Speaker 1:So he left for a while because he was scared. But he came back to make one last big deal and he got a bunch of pills and he allegedly Sent a text to a Guy, a black guy, that's important to the story, and that black man tried to rob him and in the process was killed. So this alleged shooter, charles Mulligan, was something like that. Yeah, weren't there three of them? But they only found two, and then one was supposedly three.
Speaker 2:There were two, two men, they named the other man and the third person was unnamed, but when so he had been. The Patrick guy had been seeing Like his ex-girlfriend, but he had also been seeing this girl named Jordan passi-passiante I don't know how to say her name. And when the police officer found Patrick shot in the chest and and his like housemate had like tried to staunch his chest wound with Chipotle napkins, patrick was able to say he said Charles, or he said Charles, his, his like nickname Dalat and Jordan passiante Robbed to me and the. The only person that the police ended up convicting was Charles, yeah, and. And Jordan's phone mysteriously dropped into the ocean and they never ended up convicting her.
Speaker 1:In fact she testified yeah and even though her alibi is also kept, you know, but anyway. So there is a murder. Now, again a black, this Charles Mulgan. I think my headphones are dead.
Speaker 2:Is it?
Speaker 1:recording. Yeah, it's recording. Okay, so the this Charles person was convicted. Now there is question about whether or not the police officer, police and the Prosecutors Prosecuted the right person. Can you hear me? Yeah, I can hear you.
Speaker 2:Okay, cuz I I can't hear.
Speaker 1:Oh, I can hear you, but I can't pull out your thing and then put it back in again. Okay so, but there's some question about whether or not the person who's convicted did it.
Speaker 2:The implication is racism, of course or If he did do it, there's some Question that possibly the Zach Klingman guy had hired him right hit man right.
Speaker 1:But my question was what do you think? Who do you think it was? Zach hiring somebody or hiring that person, or do you think it was something else, like it really was a robbery?
Speaker 2:cuz that does happen, right see, the thing that gets me is that that the kid, charles, refused to take the plea deal because he said he was not guilty, yeah, and that he, even though everybody his lawyer, his mom, every a judge begged him to take the plea deal, yeah, he refused to do it because he said he wouldn't plead guilty because he didn't do it right. And so I wonder, even if it was somebody in his group, maybe it wasn't him, I mean, you know, maybe somebody else pulled the trigger, although I guess South Carolina has a law where if somebody involved in a robbery Get shot, that everybody in In yeah, that's a lot of things.
Speaker 2:That's not a lot of states is guilty, which seems kind of ridiculous to me.
Speaker 1:Well, that's because a lot of people were getting off really sure and it's also hard to actually there's other convictions, so you can actually tell who the shooter is, sometimes, so that I think the idea is to try and stem you know all of that from happening with with you, knowing that if you're part of it You're gonna get life or death or whatever. I don't know.
Speaker 2:I don't like it because it seems like a broad swath of just like I throw as many people in prison and we don't have to do our due diligence to find out who it was. But anyway, so it seems to me that since he was so he was so, you know, had so much conviction about it, mm-hmm, that I think that at the very least he wasn't the shooter, yeah, and so I don't know in the end. So I think it's it's very possible, I think it's possible that he got shot in in that circumstance. I think that, I mean, I think it's probable, did. Was Zach behind the the whole thing? I Don't know. Yes, he behind. I mean, you know, the whole thing is that Zach was behind all of the things, right, like he. You know, all of the pills came from him, yeah, regardless, like Patrick wasn't, couldn't buy from Zach, and so he sent his housemate to go buy, buy him pills, and he bought the pills from Zach, mm-hmm, that post that he posted where he said I'm the plug, this seems like maybe incendiary. I don't know why he would say that suggests, right, he's the source right of the drugs, right, and that seems like he's trying to pick a fight. I don't know why he would Do that or post that. I mean, he's not, maybe not a very rational action, maybe an impulsive behavior that you know could lead to a bad decision.
Speaker 2:And they said that the Charles Mulligan didn't. They couldn't find ties from him to Zach Klingman. I wonder if the other, if Jordan paciente and the other Person who is at the scene, did they have ties to Zach Klingman? Yeah, they didn't say they didn't look into it. Yeah, and so, at the very least, I feel like the police should have looked into it, they should have done their due diligence and they didn't that they were so dismissive about it. Yeah, I think that's a big problem. Yeah, so that's my take.
Speaker 1:Well, I know, but so you? So I Don't know, you don't know, it's what I. There's not well, I know I know you're not saying, you don't know. What do you think? What's your guess, just based on the information? Oh my god.
Speaker 2:What's my guess? I'm guessing that Zach had some kind of hand and something, because I think that he was behind all of the things. So do I, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think, oh god, that was it a chick who did the, did the screenshot of the snapshot and started that whole yes, yes. Yeah, that was.
Speaker 2:I was like I was like what's her deal?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a shitty thing to do what I found was interesting.
Speaker 1:It really doesn't have anything to do with the crimes or anything, but when Rob is finally caught and he gives up Mikey, yeah, right, everybody.
Speaker 1:They were supposed to be such good buddies, their best friends, and I mean he spent a lot of time lying to Mikey, right, you know, getting him to talk about it, all of that, denying that he was yep part of this, that whatever, that he was betraying him, right, and you know the the author makes a point, and I felt it too was like that's kind of a shitty thing to do to rat out your friends, right. But then the writer talks about his friends who are also frat bros, right. So this is supposed to be a Really close bond, like not just best friends the whole point of hazing and all that, according to, is to make yeah, but all of his friends who he's been friends with since this frat days, so they would all go. I said that they would do the same and I was like, yeah, that's kind of true, they would and then he was like, yeah, I would do the same too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, which? I mean it's still kind of shitty, but it's understandable, because I would do the same as well. I mean, I know I joke and say that I would bury a healthy bury body, but yeah, no. I would rat you out well, and I would expect you to rat me out as well.
Speaker 2:I'm not gonna kill anybody, so don't worry.
Speaker 1:Well, no, I know you bury a body, I know, but that also made me think in a wider sense of the issues with the, with the Fraps and stuff. Is that like he brings up the Kavanaugh thing, right? Yeah, all those senators, they were all shitheads. Yes, that all went to bat for Kavanaugh, who, I think we can all agree, raped someone.
Speaker 1:Yes, I got away with it that that is something the brotherhood will do, like your brothers will, you know, pat you on the back and cover for you in that, but they draw the line and go into prison. I just kind of found that interesting. I mean, it's nothing profound, I just found that really interesting.
Speaker 2:I mean, at the end of the day, they're looking out for themselves, Of course.
Speaker 1:I would be too. Hopefully I have better morals than to support a rapist. Well, that's the difference right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, but yeah it's. I also liked that he brought up the point a few times, but very clearly at the end, that in these elite fraternities not all fraternities, because I think we've said before in a previous episode there are fraternities where it's just regular nerdy people, right, I think the history department had a sorority, I don't know, had some sort of Greek club thingy, but that these elite fraternities and sororities to a point, but mainly fraternities and other types of fraternity like. So elite clubs, elite groups, like at, you know, eating clubs, I think is what he mentioned at one of the Princeton or at some really amazing school that they create or not create, but they fill themselves with people who will be, have some sort of network or connection to people who are already in parts of power and it's just the self-feeding machine and they continue to run the world.
Speaker 2:And while I always knew that it's kind of nice to have it written in the Strengthening the generational and inter-communy wealth within the same group of people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I. It's refreshing to see another American talk about classism, particularly somebody who's part of it, right On the higher end I mean, because that doesn't we tend to deny that there's classes in this country or that there is, that we have a society reminiscent of England.
Speaker 1:We may not have titles, but we very much have aristocracy and all of that shit. Maybe not in name, but in actuality we certainly do. I was actually gonna bring up that similar point. Yeah, I mean, we even have, you know, people from these wealthy families, not so much now but back in the late 1800s, who married into nobility overseas right. So like Winston Churchill's mom was actually an American, yeah, it doesn't matter. Anyway, my point is is that it was nice to have that like written down in a accessible way. That's not in a book that you're only gonna read in college, you know.
Speaker 2:But the thing is that you know more than race, more than queerness, more than any other social status that separates people. I think wealth conquers all you know. The wealthy stick together no matter what, yeah, so so moral of the story Wealthy people suck.
Speaker 1:Eat the rich. Eat the rich. It was. I thought it was an interesting book. Would you recommend people reading it? I think I would.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I mean, if you're interested in the subject matter, I would recommend, and if you have a, you know, strong gag reflex then go ahead.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there may seem to be some enraging things in it, but and not necessarily the things that actually should be enraging. Somebody called it an epic. I don't know if I would call it an epic? No, not at all, but it was definitely an eye-opener and what I also liked about it. I don't think it would have been as good if the writer hadn't been a frat person.
Speaker 2:You know, I think the insight perspective is key and he probably would have gotten so many interviews if he hadn't had those connections.
Speaker 1:Rachel's so salty. Okay, so is that all we have to say? Yeah, okay. So that book was called Among the Bros Fraternity Crime Story by Max Marshall. Our next book excuse all the microphone noise is Unmask Alice. It's a thick one, so, wishes luck, it is a bit thick. Unmask Alice. Alice D Satanic Panic and the imposter behind the world's most notorious, notorious diaries by Rick Emerson. So just an FYI, this is about a diary, or maybe a couple of diaries that came out what back in the late 70s, the first one and most famous one being Go Ask Alice. And it turns out there's some fraud and some other things happening behind that. So if you want, if you've never read Go Ask Alice, maybe read that alongside it. It doesn't seem to be particularly long, I don't think.
Speaker 1:No, but the we picked that one up to read as well. Yeah, but the true crime book is definitely let's see how many pages. It is 348 pages, so if you're in for a long one, that's what she said. And that we'll talk about that in episode 12. I will give you the date in the show notes and definitely in the next episode. I don't have my calendar with me at the moment, but Okay, that's it. Do we have any fun things to talk about? Did you watch anything?
Speaker 2:I can't even fill in my phone anymore. I wrote it down this I couldn't remember anything I watched, except for Alien. That I watched over the course of two nights, because I fell asleep on the first night shortly after the chest booster scene and so apparently that's a sweet, sweet lullaby to my eyes, and so the next night I had to go back and watch from that point on to the end.
Speaker 1:Have you seen that I've been spending way too much time on Instagram Like I go to check very specific pages. Most of the time my friend, my close friends and like a few other people that I follow, but I get caught up in some of these things right. I just start scrolling, but I found the doom scrolling. Yes, I found a meme about Alien which I thought was funny. It says Alien is a movie where nobody listens to the smart woman and then they all die, except for the smart woman and her cat.
Speaker 2:Absolutely Four stars, 100% accurate.
Speaker 1:It is absolutely accurate. Listen to the smart ladies.
Speaker 2:Well, part of it is that she keeps getting gas lit by the Android, that evil Android.
Speaker 1:So that's part of the problem.
Speaker 2:But yeah, they don't listen to her. And if you haven't watched Alien, what the fuck are you doing? It's on Hulu.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a great one. That's a good one. Let's see what did I do. I wrote some down.
Speaker 2:There's aliens, there's space, there's Sigourney Weaver, there's a cat. What could possibly go wrong?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and isn't the cat a ginger? Yes, those are the best cats. They're very spicy.
Speaker 2:Kiki has a ginger cat, so she's partial to them.
Speaker 1:Yes, I have a ginger cat named Tanae. She's a chonker and she hates everybody. She's a little spicy. She's a bit spicy and she especially hates black shoes. So she will attack you if you come into the house with black shoes.
Speaker 2:My inner charcoal grits haven't been attacked yet that's good.
Speaker 1:Well, now she's considered a senior cat now. So, now she just tends to sleep a lot.
Speaker 2:Sleep and eat those are favorite things I've seen her sleeping on the bed and resting next to your grandma. She's given me the evil eye a couple of times. Yeah, she does that.
Speaker 1:Alia likes me, though Alia likes everybody. She's such a sweetie.
Speaker 2:And they say that, like tortis and calicoes are supposed to be the spicy ones, but everyone I've met is super sweet. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:They know what they like, though or at least Alia does Like when I got her. I got her when she was a kitten from the pound, and I was actually about to walk right by her because she was in the back of her cage. She didn't want to have anything to do with anybody the people that were walking before but by the time I got by her cage, she stuck out her paw and grabbed onto my shirt, and so I stopped and I asked the lady yeah, and asked the lady if I could see her, and she jumped right up and curled up on my shoulder and neck and she claimed me.
Speaker 1:Cats do claim. Yeah they do. They know who they want and what they want. They do not. Let you say no. You're not allowed to say no.
Speaker 2:When I got Agnes, I had told Jay I wanted to get a cat and I wanted a calico cat, because I've always wanted a calico cat. But Jay was like I want a fat, big black cat. And so I was like, well, maybe we'll get a black cat, because black cats get adopted at lesser rates than other colors of cats. And so I was looking and I saw an ad for free kittens, as one does during kitten season, and I always make sure that they were getting their mama cat spades, so we're good to go. So I contacted them and they had two kittens and I was like, well, I'm interested in your green eye kitten. And they were like, well, you can meet her, but we'll only let you have her if she likes you. And I was like, OK, pass the test Right. And so they handed her to me and she just like melted my arms and started purring and I was like, hell yeah this is my cat, yeah, yeah, yeah, they definitely pick you.
Speaker 2:And she's a very particular demanding cat. She could be a little bit spicy not Hanaya spicy but she's not a cat to be trifled with. But when she wants her love she's going to get it. But she's definitely, or I'm hers. You know she'll come and she'll lay on me and she low key bullies, my or sometimes high key bullies, my puppy, who also wants to constantly be on me, and then so next will be curled up on me and then Agnes will come, jump on me and give next the eye and next will skedaddle out of there, Alia.
Speaker 1:The only, the only issue with Alia is that she hates Jack. Jack is one of my dogs. She'll tolerate Lenny, but if Jack goes anywhere near her she'll swat poor Jack which is because Jack is the one that wants to be friends. He's never met an animal he doesn't want to be friends with.
Speaker 1:And it's so sad to the point where he's scared Like I have to. If he sees that the cat is out and not like sleeping in some other room, I have to walk with him to go outside or whatever, because he's so scared. Poor baby, I know. Okay, now that everybody knows better animals, I have one more animal, we'll talk about him.
Speaker 1:I'm sure any of the contest Any opportunity to talk about kitties and puppies. Have you ever read oh my gosh, I have forgotten that book now, by the author of Cersei, about Achilles. I can't think of the name of that book.
Speaker 2:Do you know what I mean? Maybe I don't think I've read it.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, I was just going to say, I just realized what cup I was using. It has Achilles and Petrocholus on it from that book.
Speaker 2:Like. I know about their story, but I don't think I've read the book.
Speaker 1:I haven't read the book either I may have read like an excerpt from it. I think it's called Song of Achilles. Maybe that's it Okay yeah, now I haven't read it either, but I had a couple of subscription boxes and that mug came in and so I just noticed that I thought maybe you'd read it. You read everything.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I have not. Maybe we could read it for one of our classics.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that'd be great. Did you read Cersei?
Speaker 2:No, I haven't read that either. See, there's lots of books. I haven't read. Cersei's a good one, so we could read either or both of those. You know how they call like a woman-love-woman relationship, like sapphic, they call men loving men relationships, achillian.
Speaker 1:That would make sense. I wonder if it comes from the popularity of that book or from the Iliad.
Speaker 2:I don't know, but I just know that that has become popular in recent years. So, there's like an equivalent, that is like a more encompassing term. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because it's encompassing of like bisexual and pansexual people, as well as gay and lesbian you know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So, that's why those terms exist. Awesome, I hadn't heard of Achillian.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:That's cool. I was wondering if they were going to come up with something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I just learned about it recently too. Also, there's, did you know? There's like a gay pride flag for like Achillian people, and it's like white, blue, green, like gradient stripes. It's really pretty, oh nice. So.
Speaker 1:So in the last couple of episodes we're recording this part after the fact by a good month or so.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So we're at the end of January.
Speaker 2:Correct.
Speaker 1:And last time we spent an extraordinary amount of time talking about our New Year's resolutions. Right, have you stuck to them?
Speaker 2:Oh my God, what the hell were they? I don't remember either. Walking more that was one of my resolutions and I am walking more. I haven't doubled my average step count and I haven't done that yet, but I am walking on average about a thousand more steps so far than I was doing last year. So, oh, that's awesome. Hopefully I can keep that up and, like you know, keep increasing it yeah.
Speaker 1:So I think you said something about eating less red meat. We just had some red meat, yeah, today.
Speaker 2:That didn't go well, but yeah, overall I have been doing that. Yeah, we had turkey burgers the other day instead of regular burgers and yeah, we've been eating like a lot of chicken and turkey. So, other than that, did I tell you about the ham fiasco?
Speaker 1:No, you said your mom wanted you to make a ham, but I didn't know about the fiasco.
Speaker 2:My mom bought a massive ham, like a 10 pound ham, and she was like, oh Rach, I got this ham on clearance and since we didn't have a ham for Christmas, I thought you could fix this ham. And I was like, oh fuck. I was like I really don't feel like making like a whole fucking like Christmas dinner scenario, right? And so I mean I didn't make a whole Christmas dinner scenario, I didn't even want to make a whole fucking like look, 10 pound bone and ham, which is what she got. But I was like, obviously I have to make this now, right. So yeah, I did the thing. I like made all the criss-cuts and I poked in all the fucking clothes and I made a goddamn glaze and I glazed it every like 20 fucking minutes and then we had ham for like four fucking days after.
Speaker 2:And I also made another meal with the ham. I made like a ham casserole with the rest of potatoes. I like chopped them all up into tiny little cubes and then I parboiled them so they could go into this like cheesy casserole. And then I made like a bechamel sauce with like Swiss cheese and like mixed it, and then, of course, we had leftovers of the casserole for two days. So yeah, in total like four or five days of ham. Wow, it is food and yeah it was. It was tasty Like I didn't not enjoy it.
Speaker 1:Right, it's just a lot to have all at once. Exactly, right, yeah.
Speaker 2:Every day. Yeah, but I think my point was not so much with the not red meat in that scenario, so, but other than that, Well good, I don't remember what else we said either, but you've pretty much been sticking to your things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I haven't stuck to a single one. What were yous again? I don't know if I ever mentioned getting keep getting my nails done. Yeah, you did, I did do that one. I did do that one, yep.
Speaker 2:They're very cute and pink and they have hearts on them. Yes, which? Is typically out of character for Kiki, but it's very cute.
Speaker 1:Wait, oh, the pink. Yeah, with hearts. Yeah, I'm usually not. I'm not a color person and I'm not really a cutesy person.
Speaker 2:But I went with it. It's okay to be cutesy every once in a while or as much as you want. As often as you want, right Wait, which for Kiki is not that often. Try something, you're in your cute girl era.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, I did. One was read at least one book a week I have, so those are the only ones that I did.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I've been reading lots of audio books. I haven't read a single physical book yet this year, so I haven't.
Speaker 1:Well, I read that one book. That's not quite a book. I mean, it's a book, it's a coffee table book.
Speaker 2:But oh yeah, might have been audio books too.
Speaker 1:And neither one of us has read the ones that we assigned ourselves this month. That would be my rebel goblin coming out, I guess.
Speaker 2:Oh, I did read one physical book, so I lied the Lost Village by Camilla Sten. That was a paper book. Oh yeah, nice, I checked out from the library. Out of the many books I checked out from the library, that was the only one that I read. I had very good intentions to read them all, but yeah. Yeah. I'll check them out again another day.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I haven't stuck to any of the ones I didn't mention either. That I didn't really put down as resolutions, but they're kind of things I wanted to do Like book track at the time, like I've done it on Goodreads, but I have like a fancy spreadsheet yeah, haven't done that, and I had that like short story a week thing. No, right, I read that one. Yeah, I read that one. Okay, so the Rebel Goblin has won this month. We'll see how it goes next month.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean it's early so.
Speaker 1:I mean I'll, yeah, I'm not that hard on myself. It's a new school year, right, it's a lot. Yeah, I mean I picked non-hard things and I still couldn't follow through.
Speaker 2:Well, it's hard when you're yeah busy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you read some things.
Speaker 2:Yes, I read and watched some things. I read like three and four of the Murderbot Diaries, I guess.
Speaker 1:I should mention that I didn't even know you read two yeah.
Speaker 2:I loved two.
Speaker 1:Yeah, did you like that other, the Sentium ship? Yes, yeah.
Speaker 2:I loved it. Yeah, yeah, I really liked two. Yeah, I won. Is that going to come back?
Speaker 1:That I mean I just published one this year or this past year. Okay, it just came out.
Speaker 2:I haven't been able to find it in a murder, the ship character is going to come back. I have no idea. Yeah, I don't know. That would be cool, it would be, yeah. So then I read, I read like three and four and like one day, because they're pretty short, or no. Maybe I read one one day and the other one the next day.
Speaker 1:Combined they would be one novel.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, yeah. And then let's see the most recent one I finished was Phantom by Helen Power, which was a pretty cool premise and I enjoyed the book, except for I felt like the ending was rushed, which was, you know, a disappointment. Yeah, of course, but the rest of it was pretty good. It's about like a lady with not so great of habits. She's like a gambler and an alcoholic and she's got like a bad attitude and no friends because she's kind of an asshole. Yeah, and she is an artist, but she's not a very, not a successful artist.
Speaker 2:Yeah, she meets this guy at her friend's art show and she ends up sleeping with him and he then she steals like money from him and he finds her again and he proposes to buy her left hand, which she's left handed, so her dominant hand, yeah, and she's like a good friend for a million dollars and at first she says no, but like her life starts to like fall apart.
Speaker 2:She gets fired from her job not unwarranted, because she was being a dick to customers, yeah, and her like ex-boyfriend turns up and like he's like a drug dealer but turns out he's like kind of a dangerous dude and he like kills some money in front of her. So she's kind of in the fear for her life and shit like that. So she ends up taking the deal on the condition that she gets the money and also like he makes her boyfriend disappear. So she takes the deal, she wakes up and her hand is gone and then she starts experiencing all this phantom limb pain like really severe. So she starts to get like therapy and stuff for it and she gets recommended to like an experimental drug that makes her pain go away.
Speaker 2:But then she starts to be able to feel her like phantom limb that she's missing and she realizes that it's attached to a serial killer that is strangling people to death. Oh that's interesting. So it was a pretty cool book. Yeah, like I said, until the end, when everything seemed like so like rushed and like cramped together and like kind of unfulfilling, so it did maybe imply the potential for a sequel. So maybe that's where the author was going with that, maybe.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that sounds interesting. Yeah, you watched In the.
Speaker 2:Shadows what we do in the shadows.
Speaker 1:What we do in the shadows.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I watched a bunch of that, which, yeah, it's kind of like a hilarious documentary style, like the Office show about this group of vampires that live together, and they're ridiculous and hilarious. The other show that we've been watching is Picard. So, or mostly I've been watching because Jay falls asleep, right, and I'm like look, jay, it's 709, look at what's happening.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and look there's a Borg cube and they're asleep. So they haven't brought back the stupid species that's supposed to be more terrifying than the Borg from Voyager. Oh, no have they forgotten that those exist.
Speaker 2:I haven't gotten too far into it.
Speaker 1:Well, no, I didn't say they were there. I was asking yeah, I don't think they would bring back the species. I was just wondering. Every time I hear Borg, I think of that stupid episode from.
Speaker 2:Voyager.
Speaker 1:Do you remember that? Did you watch it?
Speaker 2:I have watched some of Voyager, but not all of it.
Speaker 1:So there's this. I think they're partly in Borg territory for a chunk of the show and it turns out there is a species I forget. They have a species with a number, they don't really have a name, and they're supposedly the enemy of the Borg and they're able to destroy the Borg, like like. The Borg are terrified of them, essentially right, you know, but I mean they weren't. How are they able to? I don't remember. I saw it once when it came out and then I never saw it again because it's the stupidest thing in the world, but I was like I was like well, that's not terrifying.
Speaker 1:The Borg are still more terrifying and I would think the Borg are still more powerful than this. I don't Understand what's happening.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so maybe they tried to bury that one? What's their advantage over the Borg? I don't remember.
Speaker 1:I don't remember. I'm sure there had something to do with like different, not different universes, but like they can go in and out of like ours.
Speaker 1:I don't know, I don't know the science words for it Like they can move between like parallel I just remember they can kind of like disappear, but they're not really disappearing but they're going back to where they. Star Trek science. It's Star Trek science. I may be completely wrong. I I watched this. I mean, this was more than probably 20 years ago, so I don't actually remember, but I do remember looking at the species and just watching the thing and going this is stupid right, the Borg scared this shit out of me when I was a kid.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:I didn't. I didn't see next gen until I was older. But they, they are scary. Yeah, yeah, anything else.
Speaker 2:Yes, right now. I just started the the woman in me by Britney Spears.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean I did read more stuff than that, but I feel like I should not mention all the things because then I will be Talking for a really long time about it.
Speaker 1:But you're enjoying it so far.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's really fucked up. I.
Speaker 1:When you told me you were, you put that on hold. I was really shocked, like you don't. I like the kind of person who would read a celebrity.
Speaker 2:Well, I don't.
Speaker 1:I don't usually like I read the Patrick Stewart, right, I mean that's yeah, I think, an exception to the rule, but definitely not Britney Spears, because of the?
Speaker 2:what's that thing? That conservatorship, conservatorship. Yeah, that's so fucked up and, like you know, I want to know more about. Like how did it all fucking like get to that point? Right, and I can already fucking see why, like they basically Treat her like you know their own little cash machine, like, yeah, dancing singing slave, yeah, sorry, you had such a fucked up childhood, britney Spears.
Speaker 1:Let's see, I read some books. I won't talk about them cuz they're embarrassing. I want to hear about your embarrassing books. They're just their romance novels.
Speaker 2:Yeah, don't be ashamed. Let your freak flag.
Speaker 1:Jane Anne Krintz and also her alter ego, amanda quick. She has their Paranormal kind of romantic suspense. Okay, like ghost no, not that kind of paranormal, like the characters have some sort of Ability, okay superhuman like. Maybe they have like really amazing Strategic brain, right, it's just kind of intuitive to them or they have.
Speaker 1:Like they can see footsteps and in the footsteps what I said super cock, no, she's not that dirty. Okay, she's like. I know some of this stuff. Yeah, I know, on my scale shoots like a two, a one Maybe, but like some of them can like, see footprints and in the footprints they can tell if the person's like okay or whatever. Okay. It's Other fun things there's, like the sirens who can sing at a certain octave and kill you, right, or whatever.
Speaker 1:All of this stuff is interwoven between Jane and Krintz and Amanda quick, and then you've also got the Jane Castle ones which are sort of kind of related to those. Yeah, it's a whole big thing and I got sucked into it a few years ago and now I can't stop reading. So, and I hadn't read any in like over a year because I just wasn't, I couldn't focus, but yeah, for some reason I've been able to. So I got three or four of those done this month, right, which is amazing. I mean I don't think I've read that many books in a month. Yeah, this whole year, I mean since last like February, yeah, so that's exciting stuff that you enjoy.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, I, I enjoy all kinds of books. I just those ones. I do strictly audiobook. Should we pick more romance books for no, I still might not read them. It's the rebel goblin, I'm telling you. I'm telling you.
Speaker 1:She just doesn't Want me to do what I want to do and like the, once I listen to him, the car it just kind of like oh well, you have to go to work, so you got to do something, right, right. And I think maybe it's because I'm like, well, I actually really want to listen to a podcast, and my little rebel goblins like, no, you're gonna listen to a book. So yeah.
Speaker 1:Or something, I don't know. She's very contradictory, yeah, but um, I mean, if you want to read more romance, smut, whatever I'm down, I mean I'm I'm open to it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know. Yeah, like a certain amount of it, like after I don't know. Yeah, I have a certain percent that, like you know, I'm like, okay, that's an, you know yeah but yeah.
Speaker 1:I will read some, a certain amount of romance or a certain amount of like.
Speaker 2:you can read like one or two books and you're like I got it yeah like a yeah, exactly like a certain amount of quantity of it and during a certain Like time frame. You know, yeah, yeah yeah, like I can't read like a bajillion of yeah, no, I get it yeah exactly.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, I've got a whole list. Okay, okay, so I read those. That's pretty much it as far as reading watching. I haven't really done much of either.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I've been playing that stupid coloring game like I can't stop.
Speaker 1:It has become an addiction and I knew it would be, so I've like, downloaded and deleted that app 50 times in less like three years, two, three years since I discovered it right and I tried deleting it Like a couple months ago, because I was like this is getting ridiculous and it would work before I'd go a few months without doing it right. Yeah, it I immediately downloaded again the next day. I couldn't stop it's, it's awful. So I've been coloring and then watching TV, but not really watching it, yeah, and for some reason I'm just. I think I got kind of I'm over saturated with true crime. So I was taking a break from that and I was like well, watch one of the movies I bought on, yeah, prime From years ago, and so I put on the mirror has two faces. I don't know if I've ever talked about that one here.
Speaker 2:I think you mentioned it before but, I don't remember if it was in the podcast or just like in person.
Speaker 1:It's a 90s Wrong, although there's not a whole lot of funny in it, but it's not really dramatic either. Yeah, directed by and starting by, barbra Streisand. Yeah, as Jeff Daniels as the love interest At. Has Lauren Bacall as the mom. I Think her name is Mimi Rogers is the sister of Pierce Brosnan.
Speaker 1:Yeah, brother-in-law. It's nice because it's like a they're nerdy middle-aged People who have this relationship and he, like, has this idea that like love is Ridiculous and it's all been. Our ideas of love have all been manipulated by media and blah, blah, blah. And so he has convinced himself that he can have a marriage and and a Meaningful, wonderful relationship with a woman without the sex part. Yeah, so he marries Barbra Streisand, who's supposed to be Unattractive. She's not even in her most unattractive right, is still pretty, but anyway. So they get married and she just wants to be. She's a romantic, she wants to be married and so they get married and then she falls in love with him and he falls in love with her, but it's one of those like he won't admit it to himself kind of thing. So I Don't know. Anyway, it's interesting. I'm not really explaining it, right.
Speaker 2:It was. No, it's a fun movie. Explain it fine.
Speaker 1:It's a fine movie. I, yeah, I it's, for me it's like forensic files for true crime, like I just put it on, and I it's background, yeah, you know, it's just kind of like a background noise, yeah, so I watched that probably 15 times, yeah, last couple weeks. And Also the Jane Austen's book club. Have you ever seen that one?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I've watched that. Rewatch that a few times. Okay, yeah, made me want to read Jane Austen again. Yeah, a lot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but.
Speaker 1:Include. And I do because, like I think my tastes have changed in terms of like which one I like. Yeah, do you have a favorite Jane Austen?
Speaker 2:Oh, my, god, that's hard. I think it's been sense and sensibility, but I like persuasion a lot too, mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:What? Why do you like sense and sensibility? I?
Speaker 2:just like I don't know, it's more practical than like the others right in prejudice, but it still gives like all the warm fuzzies, mm-hmm, you know yeah.
Speaker 1:Wait, cuz none of the the men are super rich and yeah, yeah, it's more. Yeah, the road is.
Speaker 2:It's yeah, it's not quite as like extreme yeah yeah, like, like, oh, like you know, like mr Darcy is like, so like rich, rich and Handsome and all the things. Yeah, I don't know, I like Eleanor.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're kind of an Eleanor.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think so, I think so too. What about?
Speaker 1:you so for the last 20 plus years it's been persuasion like hands down. I've read that book 10 times. I've seen the movies a few times, well, more than a few times. My favorite one I've seen probably 40 times, but I reread that one for my book club. Yeah, I don't know last year and I didn't. It didn't. It wasn't what I remembered. Yeah, I mean, it's exactly the same, like I remember everything I didn't teach you the same way.
Speaker 1:No, and I was like this is so irritating. Yeah, I was so irritated. I felt the wit about persuasion in that, reading the way that I have for pride and prejudice, yeah right, and Now I think I actually like pride and prejudice a lot. I've never liked it it's always been my least favorite, except for Northanger Abbey. I've never read that one yeah but that had always been my least favorite. I hated mr Darcy. I mean, I can appreciate the version At the movie versions. I appreciate that Colin Firth is hate mr Darcy, so yummy.
Speaker 1:Faden is so yummy in that the one with Karen Knightley where he comes out in the like pirate shirt yeah yummy, but yeah, no, I hated, like I didn't get it. I not only didn't like mr Darcy, I didn't like Elizabeth either, yeah, and I Thought that they were just awful. And I always feel bad for Lydia, even though I know she's an idiot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I do feel. And Mary, I feel so bad for Mary. Yeah, that's true, yeah, I do feel bad for them. I mean, I also feel like, though isn't that kind of like a a modern sensibility though? Because, like you know, we can see that, like, obviously, lydia is just a child. Yeah and like she doesn't know, like how the world works and like she's just a fucking victim.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like to them. You know, obviously it's like a right, yeah, yeah, I mean, it is that way, although I never think about it in terms of her being a child. Yeah, I always forget that she's like 14, or 14, 15. I always forget that to me she's older, but even though I know she's not it for me. I guess what makes me feel bad is that just that they're like so judgmental and nasty and so not understand.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but yeah, I mean, of course you know nasty to her.
Speaker 1:Of course there is a Modern sensibility that you're putting on it, for sure. I mean they acted appropriately to their era right but, yeah, I always felt bad for her.
Speaker 1:What was I gonna say? Oh, yeah, I never liked, I always thought mr Darcy was an arrogant prick and I always thought Elizabeth was a bitch, yeah, and I never really understood their Romance like I understood their like Enemy status right, cuz it's a love enemies to lovers story friend of me. I don't even know if they're friends. They're Politely hostile, yeah, to each other and then all of a sudden they're not the right and it's weird to me, like I don't understand where his. Change kid, cuz his change comes before hers.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I never could figure out where that happened she was attracted to him right when she first saw him right, but then when, when she overheard Him talking to mr Bingley and saying that like there were no attractive girls and that, and and he's like a wall, what about?
Speaker 2:he's not she's not pretty enough to me exactly and she was like, well, fuck that guy. And I think he started to be attracted to her right when, when she showed up at At the Bingley like a manor right, and she was all like, you know, whatever wet and drippy and dirty and yeah it was like oh, there is a subtle tea in their change of feeling, but it still feels abrupt.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it feels like like I guess it feels speedy, but I guess it actually there's quite a bit of time that before then. But yeah, my main issue is always just that I thought he was an asshole and she's yeah bitch, and I think so. I haven't Read it since I finished. I mean she is a bitch.
Speaker 2:But I mean I kind of like that because I'm bitchy and snarky and and so I like that about her. But but yeah, you're right, I, I don't like care for how she's bitchy to her, lydia, because I mean they could have like her and Jane, her sister's Jane, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah her that, when she's closest to, could have. Yeah, the elder sister could have offered More guidance and like help, rather than just being like, oh they're idiots, you know, yeah, and being clicky and yeah, I mean I guess that happens though. Right, Of course it does. Yeah, I mean, I know that it happens, you know, I'm from a big family, but yeah, they could have like offered guidance and and been like, hey, be careful. Yeah no, instead of just being like oh, she's such an idiot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I also felt bad for Lydia because I mean, look at the parents. Yeah, they're not great, right, and I don't know if any of the parents in any of the books are particularly great. No no or or the parents, the, the sort of parents like in. Have you read Fanny Price? I mean Mansfield Park. Yes, mansfield Park. Why am I saying Fanny Price? I'm thinking yeah, the character. Yes, I've read Mansfield Park yeah.
Speaker 2:Is it Mrs Bertram Mike? Yes, I've read Mansfield.
Speaker 1:Mrs Bertram, right, so not parent, but Anter cousin or whatever. I forget the the dynamics, but she's just like laying on the couch with her dog and just letting the teens run rampant and and yeah. So none of the parents are particularly good. So I guess I felt bad about Lydia because she didn't have anybody to teach her and guide her, and she was allowed to be.
Speaker 2:No, she didn't like they weren't rich enough to have like like a Governance.
Speaker 1:Yes governance.
Speaker 2:I was like I was gonna be like a Jane Eyre. They weren't rich enough to have a Jane Eyre. Yes, they were rich enough to have a governance, and so there wasn't yeah, anybody to really yeah, did you like Fanny Price as a character? Yeah, I liked her. I thought that she was God. It's been a while since I read Mansfield Park, but I Remember liking her.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I, I can't remember how close the book is to the movie. There there's a movie Version from the early 80s that I watched a few times and I liked that version. She's kind of, um, we should reread all of the Jane Austen, we should. We could totally do that. I'd be down. Yeah, I don't know how to explain it, but she, she was great in the movie. I don't know if I liked her in the book. So, yeah, I don't remember how close they were, but I don't know. Fanny Price is always interesting because she was like she's kind of like the least liked character.
Speaker 1:She's like kind of quieter and yeah and kind of a goodie-goody and Kind of subservient, like annoyingly so, and also kind of judgmental. Yes, for me I like Fanny but I don't like the love story, right? I Just detest Edmund, right?
Speaker 2:detest him Cuz kind of like oh well, I guess you know this.
Speaker 1:The other, whatever thing didn't work out for him.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so he's like okay, yeah. I guess, I guess you're here, yeah, and she's like yippee.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I don't know how did we get on to Jane Austen? Yeah, oh, I guess I talked about the Jane Austen book.
Speaker 2:Yep, yes, that's how we did it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, I don't know. Oh, what else did I go? Oh, the, the crumbly, crumbly, Crumbly Trial, the, the mother, yeah, of the boy shooter in Minnesota. Yeah, is it Minnesota? I think it was Minnesota. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, they're on court TV. I didn't get to watch it, but I watched some Clips from court TV. Okay, so again one more time before we sign off. Our book for episode 12 is Unmask Alice by Rick Emerson, and With that we are also gonna read the diaries.
Speaker 2:It's called go ask Alice when the hell is episode 12 Coming out.
Speaker 1:March 27. Okay, so we've got time.
Speaker 2:Okay, we've got so if you want to read along.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so yeah, that'll the the book will at the book. The episode will be out at the end of March, if you want to Read along with us and there's that, and then if you would, please I don't know what I'm saying Um Subscribe like Download. Yeah, I was a good review.
Speaker 2:Review if you like what we do, and If you don't like what we do, you know, don't, don't bother.
Speaker 1:If you have questions or you want comments, you could hit us up on our socials. No, they will be down in the show notes. Yeah, all right, thank you guys Bye. Bye.