In this episode, Kiki tells us the stories of Mary Bell and the Parker-Hulme murder case and Rachel brings us the disappearance of Danyanira Marquez. We also talk 90s teen classic 10 Things I Hate About You and cults.
Our next book is "Unmask Alice: LSD, Satanic Panic, and the Imposter Behind the World's Most Notorious Diaries" by Rick Emerson. We will also be reading Go Ask Alice (one of the "diaries" mentioned in the book). We'll discuss both in episode 12.
Sources:
For Dayanira Marquez:
12 News: https://www.12news.com/article/news/local/phoenix-police-looking-for-missing-14-year-old/75-09573ea3-0117-4ed6-8732-4b9a5e9b65bd
Fox 10 Pheonix: https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/arizona-missing-persons-cases-2023
If you have information please contact Pheonix Police .
For Mary Bell:
"The Mary Bell Case"
Killer Psyche: "Mary Bell"
For Parker-Hulme:
Wikipedia: "Parker-Hulme Murder Case"
Absolute History: "The Most Bizarre Murders in Oceania's History"
"Ian Rankin Talks to Anne Perry (Juliet Hulme)"
Socials:
Instagram: Details Are Sketchy - @details.are.sketchy
Facebook: Details Are Sketchy - @details.are.sketchy.2023
Instagram: Kiki - @kikileona84
Instagram: Rachel - @eeniemanimeenienailz
Email: details.are.sketchy.pod@gmail.com
In this episode, Kiki tells us the stories of Mary Bell and the Parker-Hulme murder case and Rachel brings us the disappearance of Danyanira Marquez. We also talk 90s teen classic 10 Things I Hate About You and cults.
Our next book is "Unmask Alice: LSD, Satanic Panic, and the Imposter Behind the World's Most Notorious Diaries" by Rick Emerson. We will also be reading Go Ask Alice (one of the "diaries" mentioned in the book). We'll discuss both in episode 12.
Sources:
For Dayanira Marquez:
12 News: https://www.12news.com/article/news/local/phoenix-police-looking-for-missing-14-year-old/75-09573ea3-0117-4ed6-8732-4b9a5e9b65bd
Fox 10 Pheonix: https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/arizona-missing-persons-cases-2023
If you have information please contact Pheonix Police .
For Mary Bell:
"The Mary Bell Case"
Killer Psyche: "Mary Bell"
For Parker-Hulme:
Wikipedia: "Parker-Hulme Murder Case"
Absolute History: "The Most Bizarre Murders in Oceania's History"
"Ian Rankin Talks to Anne Perry (Juliet Hulme)"
Socials:
Instagram: Details Are Sketchy - @details.are.sketchy
Facebook: Details Are Sketchy - @details.are.sketchy.2023
Instagram: Kiki - @kikileona84
Instagram: Rachel - @eeniemanimeenienailz
Email: details.are.sketchy.pod@gmail.com
I'm Kiki and I'm Rachel, and this is Details Are Sketchy A Turcran podcast. So in today's episode, rachel's gonna do a missing person and I will be doing two cases One, marybell, and the second one is the Parker Hume's murder, better known as a heavily-in-creatures murder that famous movie from the 90s.
Speaker 2:And that's what we'll do, okay cool, my wife's still sending me memes, alright, so I'm gonna go into talking about my missing person Today. I'm talking about Dianneira Marquez. So she is a missing 14-year-old, missing from Phoenix, and she's considered endangered. She's described as Hispanic or Latin female, 5'3" in height, weighing around 130 pounds. She has black hair and brown eyes, and at the time she was last seen, dianneira was reported wearing a black shirt and blue jean shorts. So I'll go into. I don't have a lot of details about her, but I'll go into a little bit more details later on, after Kiki covers her case. So take it away.
Speaker 1:Kiki. Alright, thank you, rachel. So I'm gonna have some content warnings for this one, specifically Marybell for child murder, physical, sexual and mental abuse of a child Before I start. If you don't know who Marybell is, she was a young girl who killed two young boys. I mentioned that ahead of time because a lot of people call her evil and monstrous and all of that stuff. And Candice DeLong did an episode on her killer psyche podcast that reminds us that at least in this case it's a little more. And I do find that they say some. I mean, what she did was absolutely horrible, but it's definitely more gray.
Speaker 2:I don't like terms like evil, because I think I don't either. Allows us to dismiss the darkness in our own humanity.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it gives them too much power, too Absolutely.
Speaker 2:I think it's more terrifying that they're human.
Speaker 1:So Marybell lived in Scotswood, which is an inner suburb of Newcastle, in the 1960s. Newcastle was going through a lot of development at the time and one of the things that they were doing was knocking down the worst parts of the poor areas in order to build high-rises. There was a section in Scotswood called Rats Alley which was being demolished for that purpose and in the process became a playground for the local children. This will come back later. There will also be another one that I'll mention. So anyway, mary lived in one of the worst parts in that area.
Speaker 1:She was born in 1957 when her mother, betty, was 17. She had a younger brother a little bit later, and the person she believed to be her father, billy, was a violent alcoholic and habitual criminal with crimes that included armed robbery, and her mother was a sex worker who specialized in sadomasochism. That also becomes important here in a few minutes. Betty did not want to be a mother. She is reported to have said to the nurse right after Mary was born get that thing away from me. Yeah, which should have been a major red flag. They should have gotten her away from her.
Speaker 2:This is why we need abortion access, people and access to birth control.
Speaker 1:Yes, so Betty was a terrible person. She would disappear for weeks or months and just leave her kids there. When she was around, mary tended to suffer a lot of household incidents, in other words abuse. Betty had also tried to kill Mary on several different occasions, a few times by overdosing her on pills and once dropping accidentally in quote marks Mary out of a window. A relative caught her. There was also an incident when Mary was hospitalized for three months after Betty gave her iron pills, claiming that Mary thought they were candy. She was too little to get the pills out. Yeah, she gave her away at least once, possibly more times, it depends on the source you look at.
Speaker 1:But Betty's relative I think Betty's sister took Mary back and made Betty take care of her or at least Betty took her back because she would reject any offer her family made to take Mary in and, as terrible as it is to say that she gave her away Candice DeLong brings it up and I think it's true you probably what happened would never have happened if she, if anybody, had taken Mary away.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sounds like she sustained a horrific level of abuse. Oh like it's worse oh fantastic, yeah.
Speaker 1:So at age four Betty would leave Mary at older men's houses to be looked after. But she was actually being molested. Yeah, at age five she was forced to watch Betty entertain her clients. Remember, it's not just sex, it's sadomasochism, so it's pretty violent.
Speaker 1:She forced Mary to participate in oral sex with them and would tell her, no one would believe her, and if they did they would send her. Mary to jail. Betty gonna keep going. Betty let men sexually assault and even torture Mary, and at the end of that she would then give Mary treats for servicing her clients. By the time she was eight, mary would charge men to have her watch them masturbate. She would also approach cars with men inside, get in and then threaten them like saying that they raped her, molested her, whatever, unless they paid her. The police were finally called about the abuse when Mary accidentally used all of the water for a bath hot water, I should say for a bath and Betty tried first to drown her in a cold tub. Mary managed to escape that and Betty went after her, beat her and her younger brother with a dog chain. She, when the police came, mary told the police that nothing happened and when she returned back into the house, the abuse continued.
Speaker 1:Mary became known as an angry child in the neighborhood, understandably, and she also began acting out of school. Not a surprise. She did have one friend though, a 13 year old named Norma Bell. No relation to her. Many have said that Norma had an intellectual disability, while Mary is said to have been cunning and sharp and Mary was definitely the leader in that friendship.
Speaker 1:Now there were a few big red flag incidents that happened in the lead-up to the murders. On May 11th 1968, mary, who was 10 at the time, and Norma were playing on top of an embankment I think it might have been in that rat alley area I mentioned, but if not there, it was in a similar area and they were playing with Mary's three-year-old cousin. Someone probably Mary pushed him off the embankment. He had a deep laceration on his head. I take it they all went to the pub, it says. When Mary and Norma took into the pub the pub great place for children it was not a good place to be where they were. Alcoholism was rampant, yeah, and so was domestic abuse. So I'm sure this was not a nice pub. But anyway, when they went to the pub I suppose where the adults were they chalked it up to an accident. The next day Mary and Norma saw three girls playing in a sand pit and strangled each of them. When questioned by the police, norma said quote Mary went up to one of the girls and said what happens if you choke someone? Do they die? And then Mary put both hands around her throat and squeezed the girl, started to go purple and quote. The police let Mary and Norma go with a warning because of their ages.
Speaker 1:On May 25th, the day before Mary's 11th birthday, the body of a four-year-old boy named Martin Brown was found in a derelict house. His body was surrounded by pill tablets and, other than a little bit of blood and foam around his mouth, there were no signs of violence. Mary and Norma watched as local workmen tried CPR on the little boy before Mary and Norma ran to tell Martin's aunt that he was hurt in an accident, and it ultimately was ruled an accident, though it was later discovered that Mary had strangled him. The next day, mary and Norma went into a nursery, vandalized it and left four handwritten notes claiming responsibility for Martin's murder. They said quote I murder so that I may come back. End quote and quote we did murder Martin Brown. Fuck off you bastard. End quote. That was the first two notes. The third and fourth notes were similar. The police dismissed the notes, believing them to be jokes because the spelling and grammar were so childlike. Obviously, no one wants to believe that a child could kill another child. Mary and Norma actually go to Martin's house and ask if they can see him. When his mother replied that he was dead, mary said oh, I know he's dead, I want to see him in the coffin.
Speaker 1:Two months later, on July 31, 1968, three-year-old Brian Howell was murdered and left for dead in a what is described as a wasteland within Scotswood called Tin Lizzie so kind of like that rat alley. He died of strangulation and there were postmortem wounds to his genitals and thighs. His hair was cut in sections and the initial M was carved into his stomach. The coroner concluded that the killer was a child because of the tentativeness with which the cuts were made and the small amount of force used in the murder. 1,200 children were interviewed, including Mary and Norma. They said that they had been playing with Brian shortly before his time of death, or I guess it was known that they had been playing with Brian shortly before his time of death. Mary told the detectives that she had seen an eight-year-old boy playing with Brian and that he was hitting him. She also said that he had a pair of scissors and had tried to cut off a cat's tail with them, but one leg of the scissors was broken or bent. Now this alarmed the detectives because they had not released information about the scissors to the public. Additionally, the boy she named had a solid alibi, and this convinced them that Mary was the killer. As police investigated Mary and Norma, their interviews became more and more inconsistent. In Norma's fourth interview she confessed that she witnessed Mary strangle Brian Howe. Mary was arrested and during their continued investigation they found connection to Martin Brown's death. They discovered Mary's drawings of Martin's crime scene with details that had never been released to the public. They were also able to compare Mary's handwriting to the notes left at the nursery.
Speaker 1:The Trials for the Murders of Brian Howe and Martin Brown began on December 5th 1968. The girls were accused of killing solely for the pleasure and excitement of murder. Candice DeLong thinks that's a bit of a leap by the prosecution, since neither of the girls said that they did it for pleasure or that it excited them. Mary had no emotion during the court proceedings and actually seemed to pay very close attention to what was happening. Psychiatrists said that she displayed psychopathic tendencies.
Speaker 1:We'll talk more about that in a second. Norma was very emotional and was portrayed as a victim of Mary's manipulation, and Norma was ultimately acquitted. For that reason Mary was convicted of manslaughter in the killing of both boys. She was considered to have diminished responsibility because they believed she displayed symptoms of psychopathy, meaning they thought she was a psychopath. We'll come back to that again. We're going to talk about it right now. According to today's DMS-5, a person cannot be diagnosed as a psychopath or sociopath or with antisocial personality disorder before the age of 18. They also have to have a long-established pattern of disregarding the rights of others. In other words, mary couldn't have been diagnosed as a psychopath Because her brain isn't remotely close to developed.
Speaker 1:Yeah. The judge wanted her to go to a psychiatric hospital where she would receive proper care, but there were no beds available for adolescents her age in the entire country. Mary ultimately cried when the verdict was read. Mary's mother had been disruptive during court and often stormed out, and at the verdict she put her head in her hands and cried. Who knows if that was real or not, or if that was for Mary or for herself. She later told her daughter that no one could be as bad as she was and that no one felt any compassion for her. So Mary was sentenced to a reform school called Red Bank. She was the only girl among 20 boys. Her life finally had structure and support and she was doing quite well, although in 1970 she did report that a teacher molested her and she began cutting herself.
Speaker 1:About that time. She briefly stayed in a hospital and, once released, became very focused on securing her freedom. Her mother, however, would continue to victimize Mary. Betty would sell her daughter's private letters and poems to newspapers. Some of the letters were fictitious they were actually written by Betty. She would also take pictures of Mary and her underwear and show them to the press, all while pushing the narrative that she was only interested in doing what was right for her daughter. Despite doing well in school and not committing any further acts of violence, mary was transitioned to an all-female prison. There she was frequently in solitary confinement, once simply because she bled on government property and twice because she bled in an injury or like menstrual.
Speaker 2:I don't know.
Speaker 1:I don't know. That's all they said was.
Speaker 2:I mean it shouldn't matter, no, no, it really shouldn't, definitely shouldn't be grounds for solitary confinement, but I know that it's often a problem if you don't provide adequate menstrual products.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and twice because she attempted suicide. She managed to escape once but was caught. She was released from prison and given anonymity in 1980 at age 23. She had a daughter at age 27 and when that daughter was four, mary's identity was revealed and the parents from her daughter's school petition to have her daughter excluded. I don't know what that means exactly. In 1998, after moving and changing identities five times, the press found her and revealed her daughter's identity. Her daughter would have only been 14 at the time. In 2003, after years of being pursued by the media, mary won lifelong anonymity by the High Court for herself, her daughter and her granddaughter. Lifelong anonymity is granted to those individuals who are convicted of crimes as children. These orders legally prevent a person from ever being identified, and I don't think she's been identified since 2003. Sometimes the press are fucking awful. They are, you know. I can understand not wanting to have Mary around your children.
Speaker 2:I get that fear.
Speaker 1:But that's exactly what I'm saying. You know the daughter and the granddaughter? They're not. They didn't do anything. Yeah, they weren't even a twinkle in her mother's eye. It's bullshit.
Speaker 2:And so there was never any other instance, though she was not like from then on, like there wasn't any, no incidents of violence, or like she wasn't known to be, like violent to her daughter or anything like that right right that was.
Speaker 1:I think that was partly Candice DeLong's point is that you know, as Horrible as her crimes were and as Unforgivable as they are, you know it was clearly a product of what she went through the incredible Vicious abuse? Yes, and her mother should have been just as culpable.
Speaker 2:That's what. That's what I was gonna. It's incredible to me that her mother Didn't face any responsibility For her actions. Yeah, I mean I would think there should be like did they investigate the mother? Did they do anything to? You know, like, when a, a ten-year-old you know commit some kind of act, you know your, their parents are responsible for. You know caring for that child, for Making sure you know knowing where that child is taking care of that child, don't you investigate the parents? Don't you see you're?
Speaker 1:also putting contemporary thought into a past. They believed the Stuff around children was very different than it is now very true, even though it wasn't that long ago. You know, and they did know the abuse and all of that stuff was common knowledge, according to at least one of the documentaries.
Speaker 2:I think that you know that the mother should be a full responsibility for the desk and All those kids.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, I agree, I agree, and I think most people would Just as much as Mary is culpable. But I think that's the point that Candice along was making is that you can't. I mean she in everything that you see are pretty much everything that you see about Mary Bell. They always label her as evil, right and monstrous, as I said before, and I think if you look at just the horrendous abuse, while it is not an excuse at all, you can see that it is a Little more gray and then there is a lot more to it that maybe she is not a natural born killer. Right, she was made and Nobody Helped her. Yeah, not one single person Helped her. Right, not the police, not the family. They knew what her mother did. I mean, the relative knew, they knew. Right, the nurses knew and the doctor knew On day, one.
Speaker 2:I mean, I'm just thinking about what we know about what childhood trauma does to the brain. Yeah, I'm the wonder, like you know what kind of what kind of physiological Changes that yeah, her brain underwent and honestly, it's pretty miraculous the recovery she was able to make. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So I mean, we don't really know how well her life that's true turned out, or how she would, but apparently she's not. But that's right?
Speaker 2:No, she's not arrested anything to hurt anybody else.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's yeah or at least we don't know that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's hurt anybody else because once people start that, they usually don't stop right so the next case Is also about two young girls Teenagers who committed murder.
Speaker 1:Okay, so this is the story of Pauline Parker and Julia Hume. Now I will say something on the last name. It's spelled h-u-l-m-e, but every place that I heard the pronunciation- At least she was not American pronounced it Hume without the L.
Speaker 1:So that's what I'm going with. Yeah, so Pauline Parker, who is also known as Pauline Reaper, was born on May 26th 1938. She came from a working-class background and her parents were living together, but we're not actually married. That piece of information was not public knowledge and was not revealed until the trial. Okay now, normally that wouldn't be a big deal to us, but that was part of the sensationalism right at the trial and it was not a done thing at the time. Julia Hume was born in London in 1938 and emigrated to New Zealand in 1948 with her parents. She was the daughter of a physicist who became the rector of University of Canterbury. Now, I say these things Because, again, it's kind of part of the trial.
Speaker 1:I won't really talk about the trial, but there is a lot of Classism right and there is a big difference in how the English are viewed in Comparison to their Colonies or their Commonwealth right folks like New Zealand. So New Zealand's gonna be below the British, okay. And she's also High. Juliet is also higher on the socio-economic ladder, okay. So both Juliet and Pauline attended Christ's Church Girls High School. The girls had both suffered illnesses as children. Paulie, pauline, suffered from osteomyelitis. I will spell that O-S-T-E-O-M-Y-E-L-I-T-I-S. I don't know what that means. I meant to look it up but I forgot. And Juliet suffered from tuberculosis. That seemed to form the basis of their initial connection, because, I mean, otherwise, they really have anything in common, right? They both Apparently romanticized the idea of being sick. The girls formed an elaborate fantasy life together. Were you gonna say some?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was gonna ask you if that's a. That was a common thing of the time.
Speaker 1:The illnesses or two romantic to romanticize it. Probably in literature. I mean, I'm not an expert in that literature, but I know from the little I've read it's Somewhat romanticized, at least.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they like the the innocent sick yeah, caricature kind of yeah, and they were.
Speaker 1:These girls were very imaginative.
Speaker 2:It was like tiny Tim, or like Jane's friend. Yeah, and Jane here, what's her name?
Speaker 1:Helen, yes, helen, yeah, okay, yeah, anyway sorry, I mean those were written prior to this, but yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, I'm sure the girls had read it or knew of it right stuff. So the girls formed an elaborate fantasy life together. They wrote plays, books and stories centered in the world they created. They invented their own personal religion with their own ideas on morality, and worshiped their own saints. They envisioned a dimension called the fourth world, which was basically their version of heaven. The fourth world was a place that they felt they were already able to enter, occasionally During moments of spiritual enlightenment. Pauline said they had achieved the spiritual enlightenment because of their friendship. So I'm not really going that in depth for it, but it was a really in-depth world.
Speaker 1:Right don't quote me on this because I couldn't rewatch the deadly women episode. This season 3 is not available even for purchase, but if I remember correctly, they had a hard time Telling the difference between their fantasy world and reality.
Speaker 1:Okay, as children tend to do, is kind of like wasn't at the slender man, yeah, killing. So it's In a sense like like that right. There was an intensity in the friendship that was very concerning for both sets of parents. For example, juliet would become withdrawn and ill when Pauline would leave her home without her. So this intensity caused both sets of parents concern, as I was saying before, but More because they were worried that they were engaged in a sexual relationship. Remember, this is the 1950s, so homosexuality was at the very least considered a mental illness, if not illegal. Both families continued to allow the girls to see one another, though, and that included for sleepovers and vacations.
Speaker 1:In 1954 Juliet's parents separated. Problems with faculty and the board forced her father to resign from his position and her mother was having an affair. The family plan to return to England, but decided that Juliet would be sent to live in South Africa with relatives, and Presumably that was for her health. I don't think England is very good for tuberculosis. Yeah, both girls were heartbroken over the impending separation and decided that Pauline should also go to South Africa. Now, they thought that Juliet's parents would agree, but Pauline was certain her mother would not allow her to go. In fact, some sources say that the mother absolutely wouldn't allow Pauline to go with Juliet and and actually couldn't wait for her and the Hume's family to leave, and I think Juliet said in a later interview also that Pauline threatened to kill herself if they couldn't be together Was that because they thought they had an intimate relationship, that she didn't want her to go, that the mother yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh yeah. And also I think that the Very intense I mean even if there wasn't a lesbian relationship that's too much intensity. Right Nothing good is going on Like codependent. Yeah. So the girls decided that the remedy would be to kill Pauline's mother. Oh, brilliant yeah. On the afternoon of June 22nd 1954, pauline and Juliet had afternoon tea with Pauline's mother and I do not know how to pronounce her name Anora H O N O R A H, and the last name was Reaper. Reaper, well, well, again, wasn't married.
Speaker 1:Yeah so I guess they called her that, or maybe that was the married name and she was actually Parker. I don't know who's Parker and who's not. Okay, so anyway, pauline's. They were having tea in a shop in Victoria Park. They walked through a wooded area of the park approximately 430 feet down the path. One of them dropped some type of pretty pebble is what it was described as, and when mom bent to pick it up, the girls began beating her with either half of a brick in an old stocking or a rock in An old stocking it kind of depends on what source. Ultimately they hit her 20 to 30 times. Yeah, they then ran back to the tea shop they had just been in and were met by the owners of that shop, agnes and Kenneth Richie. The girls told them that Pauline's mother had fallen and hit her head, but once the body was found it was discovered that she had major lacerations on her head, neck and face and Minor injuries to her fingers. So obviously she didn't just fall and hit her head.
Speaker 1:The brick was found in the nearby woods and Again the girls story of accidental death quickly fell apart right so the trial was sensational, with lots of speculation about the girls possibly being lesbian and thereby insane, or separately insane, and Because you can't see, but I'm rolling my- eyes.
Speaker 1:Yes, and Also again, because there was some of that Elite ism we were talking about. One was poor woman's rich, which was from England, one was from New Zealand. Pauline and Juliet were convicted on August 28th 1954 Now they were Children, well teens so they were too young to be considered for the death penalty and they each wound up spending Five years in prison. Yeah, some sources say they were released on the condition that they never contact each other again, but others, including the then secretary for justice, said there was no such condition. So that's always been a question Right, and I will tell you why in a moment. Okay, following her release, pauline was given a new identity as Hillary Nathan, and from at least 1992 she was living in this small village in England or in, I'm sorry, in a small village in England and running a children's riding school, or she was a headmistress of a school for special needs children. Again, it depends on the source. She became a devout Roman Catholic somewhere along the way and she had never spoken to the press, but in a 1996 statement that was released through her sister, she expressed strong remorse for having killed her mother. Her sister further stated that quote Pauline committed the most terrible crime and has spent 40 years Repaying it by keeping away from people and doing her own little thing. After it happened she was very sorry about it. It took her about five years to realize what she had done. And quote Juliet's spent time in England and the United States after her release.
Speaker 1:She later settled in Scotland. She became a member of the Mormon Church around 1968. She also became a successful mystery writer under her new name and Perry. If you've seen, isn't that the Peabody books? Do you know Amelia Peabody? I think those are hers. It wasn't until 1994 that it became well known that Perry was Julia Humes. There's some speculation. Well, I speculated, probably because that was the year that Heavenly Creatures was released. It was a really big deal. But she also about that time started talking about the murder.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:One person says she only really talks about it when she's releasing a new book. So yeah, who knows? In March 2006, and Then Juliet stated that while her relationship with Pauline no Hillary was obsessive. They were not lesbians. I'm not sure if Hillary is still alive or not, but and died on April 10th of this year, 2023. Peter Graham, a crime writer who recently gained access to Pauline's diaries I think they were Pauline's diaries says that they were actually lesbians because the diaries mention it. According to him, and also in the Diaries there's no mention of suicide. So he questions and Perry's Account account trying to I don't know diminishing or something like she's caring for her friend or something.
Speaker 1:My sources for those two stories. So we'll start with the Heavenly Creatures one, since I just finished with that. Mainly I got it from Wikipedia. The Parker Humes murder case, also a small snippet from the most bizarre murders in Oceana's history, which is on YouTube. And then Ian Rankin did an interview with Ann Perry and it's called Ian Rankin talks to Ann Perry For Mary Bell. I mainly listened to Killer Psyche, season 2, episode 32, mary Bell, 11 year old killer, and then I got a teensy tiny bit from what is called the Mary Bell case. I don't know if that's actually what it was called. Somebody lifted it and put it up on YouTube like 10 years ago. It is an older documentary. I don't recommend it unless you want to hear a bunch of old men being dickheads. Not particularly, yeah, so that's it.
Speaker 2:Okay, my thoughts are Be gay, do crime but not murder. Yeah, and I was also thinking how Both of these women went on to to join pretty conservative religious orders. I know now the Roman Catholic Church recently said they will recognize Queer marriages, right, but I mean that's just now, right, so, and he said 1990, whatever.
Speaker 1:For the Mormons it was 1960. I don't know when the other woman became a Roman.
Speaker 2:Catholic the Mormons definitely still yeah.
Speaker 2:That's a very anti queer homophobic, non acceptable to be Queer lesbian by any kind of sapphic or, yeah, queer person in those Societies. Yeah, so those are my thoughts about that, that you know, whether or not they had a sapphic relationship that later on in there in those kind of communities that, yeah, wouldn't be free to admit it if they had, yeah, and With this sensationalism that surrounded that relationship, they probably Wouldn't have wanted to after that anyway, yeah, but yeah, that's why we don't murder folks, I mean among the many right right don't murder yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it'd be interesting to read the diaries, because I'd rather Interpret them myself. Yeah, I have a, and that was the other thing I was gonna interpret them because I mean, I mean closeness doesn't mean lesbianism, doesn't mean yeah gayness yeah not yeah, not necessarily yeah.
Speaker 2:It would be interesting to know even holding hands and kissing.
Speaker 1:There are lots of cultures where that is absolutely permissible and there's nothing. That is you know, and it's not construed in that right.
Speaker 1:Yeah it would be interesting to know what was said exactly rather than somebody else's Interpretation and it could, since there's only the diary of one of the girls. It's believed that Pauline's diary was destroyed by the family before her child right, or and or Julia, I don't know. I keep forgetting which one is which one the one that is, and Perry's her family probably destroyed it. The other one is the one whose Stuff is still around, and so it's entirely possible she may have been gay.
Speaker 2:That's that's another and have feelings for Paul's gonna say, could have been that one of them was queer and the other one wasn't right. Or both of them were queer and I either than were queer, you know yeah, any combination. Right, right, yeah, but uh yeah, it would be interesting to to see whether they had a romantic relationship or not, though I don't think that that necessarily pertains to their actions, you know yeah, no they had a close relationship and they Didn't want to be separated, and no, I think people to.
Speaker 1:I don't think if that happened today, I don't think it would be no sensational for that reason, but back then it was so tied to mental illness I was played into the insanity Absolutely thing, so people would think that it is part of it, right, you know? And also they were young, I mean young Lesbians, you know. Of course people are gonna be excited, right? I mean? What other reason could there be right to kill a mom?
Speaker 2:I thought it was interesting that they said that the one Girl took about five years to recognize that it was wrong to murder her mother.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the time she was in prison, yeah, yeah, well, I mean when she can't you recognize Immediately that she may have been like I didn't do justice to the strength of their fantasy life. Yeah, you know. So she may have. It may have taken a long time for her to get right out of that mental point space.
Speaker 1:Oh, the reason that I cuz I clearly forgot to write it up in my notes the reason that the claws about not seeing each other is kind of a big deal on people who talk about this case is distribution is because proper, well, one that relationship. Did they ever see each other? There's no proof that they ever saw each other, but they only lived towards the end there I think they said like 123 kilometers away from each other at the end. So they were close enough to meet and I'm sure they at least Hillary would have known who Amperi is, since Amperi wasn't quiet about it. So nobody knows. Though.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's possible, or it's possible. They're like, wow, I never want to see that person again yeah. At least. Well, I guess the one, the author one didn't. I was gonna say maybe they just wanted to close that chapter of their life, but you said the author kept bringing it up whenever she released a book, right?
Speaker 1:So yeah, Did the other one bring it up? I don't think so. Yeah, things are so confusing. Again, it's one of those cases where people have very set opinions and they maintain their own narrative and so sources and stuff are spotty. So one video that I saw I think it was a fairly recent one, but I can't tell you how recent it may have been a few years ago, maybe this year, I don't know. It was kind of like a news report, I think, maybe for England or Australia or something or New Zealand, one of those. I couldn't tell the accent, but they were interviewing the mystery writer who I've talked about at the end. I think his name is Graham Jones. Yeah, I want to say that's his name. They interviewed him and then there was another man who bought the home of Hillary and he found a mural that Hillary did a secret mural. And if you look at it, graham Jones and the other dude look at them and say that clearly Hillary was still thinking about the relationship with Anne when they were teens.
Speaker 2:I can't remember who she was.
Speaker 1:Well, they did have little pictures of it To me. I saw a lot of her Roman Catholic religion, right, it was a lot of saints and stuff, although I don't know the ins and outs of the religion they made up, so maybe I had some of that in there. I don't know. But anyway, I think my original point was that they said she was a recluse. At the end they have these comparisons, anne Perry. They don't ever say it, but it's implied. Anne Perry capitalized on it and Hillary was so distraught that she did the right thing and stayed out of the public eye. Quote, quote right thing. So that's the implication. I don't know. It's hard. When you see Anne Perry talk about it, it's hard to tell if she was remorseful or not. But I don't really know what remorse looks like. I mean, I know what it looks like.
Speaker 2:Me yourself right.
Speaker 1:But I don't necessarily know what it looks like to another person. I mean, just because they don't cry doesn't mean they're not remorseful. There are those of us who have been taught, or either by others or self-taught, that you don't display emotions in public of any kind.
Speaker 2:I can agree with that. I do think that trotting it out whenever she's trying to sell books, that was really shady, but I also don't know if that's actually true.
Speaker 1:That's what Graham Jones says. Graham Jones is not a fan of Anne Perry, so a lot of this stuff is just hearsay. So I mean, I've seen a lot of interviews with her talking about it. I don't know if she only talks about it because that's when people ask her and she's open about it, or if she seeks it out. You know what I mean. Why would you just have an interview?
Speaker 2:and talk about it. I mean that's a good point that interviewers may bring it up and sometimes in whatever the show videos and people have been asked questions, but they don't show the question that's been asked, they only show their response.
Speaker 1:Right, but also because if she had done something like called up the BBC or whatever and was like, let's have a sit down so I could talk about it, everybody would hate her for that. That would also be the poor thing. So I'm not saying she shouldn't be judged, but I don't think it's fair necessarily to stick your nose up and say she only talked about it when she did. You know, like you don't fucking know, you don't know what the situation was. I mean she could have said, no, I won't talk about it, but then she'd also be judged for that.
Speaker 2:You know like the woman.
Speaker 1:It's a damned if you don't say yeah, exactly, but yeah, a lot of people.
Speaker 2:The surefire way out of it is don't murder.
Speaker 1:Yeah, don't murder. I mean I can say that when she talks about it she tends to one either diminish it or try to leave things out like she's distancing herself, and I don't know if that's because she doesn't want to admit her culpability or really accepts her culpability or if it's one of those situations where it really is like you're not in your body like you're somebody else doing this thing.
Speaker 1:I don't know if other people have had situations like that, but I have where it's right, this is so see, yeah, where something happens to you and it doesn't even need to be something terrible you just have a moment where you're like it doesn't feel like you yeah. Not that I'm trying to make excuses for a murder, but it's.
Speaker 2:I really know what she experienced. Yeah.
Speaker 1:But that's just something I think about whenever I see her talking on in her interviews.
Speaker 2:A lot of people do a lot of stupid things when they're teenagers. But I don't know. You know what you're doing. You know, you know right from wrong. So you can't really say you know that they didn't. They can't take responsibility for their actions.
Speaker 1:Right. Yeah, they certainly knew right from wrong. It's just, it's the fantasy thing Like, if it yeah.
Speaker 2:Right. I wonder like how? How are we from reality worth?
Speaker 1:it, yeah, and it's also that thing where, like you may know, it's wrong, but you've convinced yourself that that is the Right Only out. Not that that's an excuse, but I think that that is something we don't necessarily like to admit. When we talk about these murders, right, we always say, well, they could have done something else. Well, yes, obviously.
Speaker 2:But they've convinced themselves that that's the only way out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, or that that's the solution to their problem. Again, doesn't make it right, but you know it's yeah.
Speaker 2:And you have to, because I mean, yeah, I have to. I mean unless it's a crime of passion Like you know, if they were thinking through, they would think well, obviously if we murder her, then we're not going to fucking wherever South Africa together, Right. But so obviously they're not thinking. You know, quote unquote rationally, I yeah.
Speaker 1:And maybe they're made up. Religion has something to do with it too, right, like they already, it's their own morality. I mean, they clearly at that time, you know, didn't believe the Christian stuff that they were brought up with. They had their own whatever, and they felt that they had already reached heaven.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I don't mean quote, unquote rationally, in that it's OK to rationalize.
Speaker 1:Right no.
Speaker 2:But I mean in that the concept of rationality is grounded in like a white, western, centric thought and conceptualizations, and so it's a subjective concept, basically Right. And so that's why, because it's not, it's not, it's not universal, but I think what is universal is that murder is typically see, is wrong.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Like everywhere around the world, right murder is wrong. Yeah, so I think that there's there's really no way around that. I mean the group think aspect of it also. Yeah, I think there's something to that as well. Like they're playing off of each other. Yeah, for sure, that's a dangerous thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think if they had never met or if their relationship hadn't gotten so caught up in that fantasy land, I don't think that they would have that murder would have ever happened or any murder would have happened. Absolutely. So what have we been reading, watching, listening to? Ok?
Speaker 2:So, yeah, we watched Ted Things I Hate About you last night, because Jay had never seen it before. I was like, oh my God, you have to see it. But then, of course, they fell asleep and I was like stay awake, babe. I was like, wake up, wake up, like they saw, like probably like the first third of it or so they fell asleep. Like they fell asleep through everything I know, I know, because they that's like their sleep time. Yeah, but like we don't have other times to watch stuff, yeah.
Speaker 2:So like I tried to wake them up for this scene where, like Heath Ledger sings yeah. And sorry if you haven't seen 10 Things I Hate About you because it's been out for a million years, since 1999.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I found in theaters.
Speaker 2:So if you're like Jay, go see 10 Things I Hate About you because, holy shit, it's a great film it is.
Speaker 1:I think it's one of the best. Not only the best teen movies from the 90s, which was like the heyday of teen movies but also, I think, a really, really great. I keep wanting to say interpretation, but it's not interpretation Adaptation.
Speaker 2:Adaptation of Shakespeare.
Speaker 1:Not just Taming of the Shrew, but Shakespeare in general. It's true, it did it in such a way that you could see the source material, yep.
Speaker 2:And they even incorporated.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they incorporated Shakespeare and also really kind of brought in the whole like 90s stuff. Yeah, yeah, and yeah, I think it's good because I've had to watch a lot of adaptations of Shakespeare, particularly Hamlet, and they're horrible. I mean, some of them are great, like I like Kenneth Branagh, generally speaking, you know, but those are more like the play, but in movie form rather than like a true adaptation.
Speaker 2:I guess you could say and you feel about the Lion King as an adaptation of Hamlet.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, I mean it's fine. I don't think I've actually haven't seen the Lion King since it came out in 1994 or whatever it was.
Speaker 2:But I mean, the Lion King is a fantastic movie. Yeah, I don't know how fantastic it is as an adaptation of Hamlet yeah, I don't think so, like I don't know if I did it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't think if I knew that, if I didn't know that it was an adaptation, I wouldn't know that it was an adaptation?
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:My favorite one, but favorite only because it's horrible and only because it makes me giggle. Every time I think about it, Like I can be in the worst mood and think about the one scene and it makes my day and I can't remember which one it is, but I think it's a dystopian version. But the scene that makes me laugh is when the ghost of is it the father? Comes out of a pep like, walks out of a Pepsi machine. In what? In an adaptation of Hamlet.
Speaker 2:I don't know if I've seen that it's a terrible movie.
Speaker 1:I wouldn't recommend it. Okay, no, I haven't seen that. Yeah, it's a dystopian one. I don't. I want to say what is it called? I don't know. I don't know. I've seen it once and I blocked the vast majority of it out of my memory and when I saw it it would have been 20 years ago because I was at St John's and we were doing Shakespeare and we were doing Hamlet and we had to watch a bunch of this.
Speaker 2:Now what if I like, if I Google it. Google like ghost comes out of Pepsi machine. I don't know if that'll, I don't.
Speaker 1:I seem to be the only person that finds that hilarious. So it may not be that one, but put Hamlet dystopia or dystopian movie. I think Vince Vaughn might have been in it or one of the actors. I always get confused for Vince Vaughn.
Speaker 2:Vince Vaughn or someone like.
Speaker 1:Vince Vaughn. Yeah, it is the father. Right, it is Hamlet's ghost. That Hamlet's father's ghost that comes to visit him. Yes, I've blocked out Hamlet too. I hate that Dystopian. I hate that play. I hate that play. I hate that play. Maybe it's Macbeth, maybe I'm confusing.
Speaker 2:Well, that's different.
Speaker 1:I know, I know.
Speaker 2:In the flesh.
Speaker 1:No, it was Hamlet. I was right. I was right, okay, yeah, no, it was Hamlet, and it's called Hamlet it was made in 2000, and it is not Vince Vaughn although he may still be in it, but it's Ethan Hawke.
Speaker 2:Ethan Hawke doesn't look like Vince Vaughn, I know.
Speaker 1:I know, I don't know why I have Vince Vaughn in my head. Let me check this. The cast Okay, yeah, ethan Hawke, julia Stiles that's also what made me think of it yeah, bill Murray, kyle McLaughlin, lee Schreiber he's the one I always get confused with Vince Vaughn. Okay, I don't know why, but yeah, he's in it has Sam Shepard.
Speaker 2:So it's terrible and we should definitely watch it.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a modern. Let's see, it's a modern retelling of the classic tale of a young filmmaker in New York City struggling with the weight of a production company called Denmark Corp Corp I don't know why I pronounced the P Following the death of his father, including dealing with those who would deprive him of his crown. Okay, but yeah, and I think, is it Sam Shepard who plays the dad? Oh yeah, ghost of Hamlet. Yeah, he comes out of a fucking Pepsi machine, or maybe it might. In my head it's a Pepsi machine, could be a Coke machine.
Speaker 2:It is a soda machine of some kind. I was going to ask if he just floats out of the entire machine or if he comes out of the dispenser report.
Speaker 1:No, he just walks through it. He just walks through it. But yeah, so it's a great movie and they fell asleep.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh yeah they fell asleep. But yeah, they saw the first part and they had some chuckles and yeah, and then they fell asleep before the party.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:What was I going to say? I don't know. I don't know either. I just I don't know. That movie is just so nostalgic it is.
Speaker 1:And it has what I think. It's a great soundtrack too. Yes, it has a fantastic soundtrack. It has letters to Cleo.
Speaker 2:What's the other?
Speaker 1:one, the other group. Um, I'm fronted by a girl, a woman, yeah, I forget, but they're good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, let me look up some like. I'm always like I never know the name of that band, but I love that.
Speaker 1:I mean it has such classic lines. I can't remember the line exactly, but Bianca's. Like I like my sketchers, but I love my Prada backpack. I don't know if that's the exact quote, but I remember there were sketches and a backpack involved Letters to Cleo. Letters to Cleo. Yes, I actually named my dog Cleo after that paint.
Speaker 2:Wow, there you go.
Speaker 1:Have it, listen to them, probably since 2000,. But yeah, Letters to Cleo Semi-Son Say Ferris, that's the one Sister Hazel, Joan Armand Trading I can never pronounce her name the Cardigans also one of my favorite songs, War, yes, Great soundtrack, great film. It was, I think, a perfect point in time. I would say that movie encapsulates that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it does encapsulate it. Of course, I feel sad whenever I see Heath Ledger.
Speaker 1:Well, I know, yeah, that's why I haven't been able to watch that Batman. He was in. I loved that Batman. I saw that Batman a million times but, yeah, since he's died, I haven't been able to watch it.
Speaker 2:Celebrity death that you can't get over, right.
Speaker 1:I know I haven't been able to watch Golden Girls since Betty White died.
Speaker 2:I was telling Jay the other day that I haven't been able to listen to David Bowie's Black Star album. I was like I would just be devastated. I can't.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it took me about I would say maybe about 10 years before I was able to watch the original Star Trek again after D-Force Kelly died. That was gut-wrenching, and I had to take another break after Jimmy Dewin died too, although Leonard Nimoy oddly didn't bother me that much. I love him, I love him, he was great. He is Spock forever and always, and I mean his album with the Hobbit song he has the Hobbits.
Speaker 2:Oh, my God.
Speaker 1:So cute and that music video is just so fucking ridiculous. Yes it is. But yeah, I don't know, I guess. Maybe I guess I was just in a place where, like, none of that really bothered me, or maybe I had been anticipating it so it didn't affect me as deeply.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's how I kind of felt like Meno with the emphysema and stuff. It kind of seemed like Meno and it seemed like in his appearances and stuff before his death that he had kind of been at peace with everything. So yeah, nichelle.
Speaker 1:Nichols upset me. Yeah, that was a hard one too. Weirdly it came out of nowhere, but also it didn't I'm going to be devastated when George.
Speaker 2:Oh, don't even George Takei, dies.
Speaker 1:Oh God yeah that's going to be gut-wrenching. Yeah, yeah, I'm Patrick Stewart and Ian McClellan. Yeah, ian McClellan yeah.
Speaker 2:Brent Spiner just turned 75 a few days ago.
Speaker 1:Brent Spiner.
Speaker 2:Yes, oh, and I was like I can't fucking believe it.
Speaker 1:No, he was in an episode of Night Court, yeah, and just before he got next-gen, I think. Yeah, oh yeah, that was funny.
Speaker 2:You know, I think I may have seen that a long time ago. I think I saw like a clip or something.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think maybe I showed it to you, you probably did, maybe I don't know if I did, but it wouldn't surprise me if you had showed it to me. When I felt so they have a new Night Court. It's supposed to be the daughter of the judge and the. I can't remember his name either, but I can picture him so clearly as one of my first crushes. I can't remember his name, but the lawyer, who is kind of a dog. He was always chasing women.
Speaker 2:Wait, what Night.
Speaker 1:Court In Night Court. Yeah, anyway, he's come back in reprising his role and the Bernadette from Okay.
Speaker 2:The Big Bank Theory.
Speaker 1:The Big Bank Theory is the judge's daughter. I saw the first several episodes. They're funny, but I didn't realize until I Googled it after the first episode, that the actor of the judge from the original Night Court died. Yeah, oh god, that was devastating. I cried for like 10 minutes. I was like, oh god, yeah, I mean he was Like. I mean I watched that a lot as a kid, a lot. Okay, now that we've brought it down, how did we get on that? Oh, heath Ledger.
Speaker 2:Yes, heath Ledger, yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh and okay. So what we were talking about last night when you said it? I mentioned that there is a kind of true crime adjacent story to 10 things. Well, not story, but piece of information.
Speaker 2:Andrew.
Speaker 1:Keegan Andrew Keegan, who played the bad guy in 10 Things.
Speaker 2:I Hate About.
Speaker 1:You. He started a new religion and, depending on your feelings about things and how you define cult, it is either a religion or a cult. I call it a cult.
Speaker 2:How can you get so many people to follow him? Because, just like what happened in the movie, his face looks so fucking punchable.
Speaker 1:He seems like a dick, you know, just by looking at him. I don't know, like I was reading about it because I was like I know he has a cult. But then I was like, is it really? Did I, or did I just like make that up in my head? And so I Googled it and it's called like full circle, full circle. Now, again, most people don't call it a cult. I mean, they're not doing anything nefarious.
Speaker 2:Yeah, really, when I read he started in Venice, california. I was like oh that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it does no offense to those who live there.
Speaker 2:Hey, I grew up in California and like that's I was telling you, I was like, why are there so many cults in California and in New Mexico?
Speaker 1:Yeah, my two states. I know, yeah, yeah, and, but anyway, so I, I I read some articles about it and he had been asked about his religion and he said something that made absolutely no sense and I was like that's how you got him. It sounds smart, it sounds like you're saying something, but you were saying it absolutely nothing. And yeah, and I think that's how a lot of it goes, you suggested we should start a cult. Yes, be lucrative, but I don't think either one of us could keep us free.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, we were discussing that because I was saying that we should, we should start a cult because it seems lucrative.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And that we could sound like just like some hippie flower water or something, not anything dangerous, but something that you know people buy Not that silver shit from the mother. God, yeah, not that, but nine that people could buy if they want to give us money for that.
Speaker 1:So we'd be a benevolent cult. Is that what we're going to do? So then we'd be a religion.
Speaker 2:Not benevolent, but just benign Benign.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we wouldn't demand that they give us their life savings.
Speaker 2:Well, we can. We can debate whether or not religion is benevolent.
Speaker 1:That's true. I yeah, you're right. You're right. I don't know why I said that. Yeah, I think that we would be nice. But, like all things, I think we would become power hungry, and that's that's true. You know and power.
Speaker 2:That's the thing.
Speaker 1:That's the thing I think. Cult leaders ultimately start buying what they're selling, right, you know? And that's when things become really dangerous.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, if we start chugging the flower essence water stuck in a duty thing, it's just.
Speaker 1:No, I don't mean the literal selling, I mean they're, they're bullshit.
Speaker 2:But now we've told you about it, so we'll have to come up with a new thing. Okay.
Speaker 1:So, anyway, andrew Keegan, the bad guy in 10 Things I Hate About you, started his own religion slash cult. It's called Full Circle, if you're interested.
Speaker 2:So what if we infiltrate the cult and like like see what's like we could do, like a documentary or whatever, like inside Full Circle or something full circle exposed?
Speaker 1:I still don't think I could do it without a giggle. I can't, oh my God. No, I probably could either. I have no control over my facial expressions. Like none Did I tell you I got called out on something at work for rolling my eyes.
Speaker 2:I get caught rolling my eyes, too, all the time, and I'm not even conscious that I'm doing it.
Speaker 1:I know, I know I was. I was doing like it's like a quote unquote academy. It's not really an academy, but it's like a teaching thing for pedagogy and stuff and we had to do like one day it was about speaking and speeches and we're all like we're teachers, we already know how to do this right and but they made us come up with like a.
Speaker 1:They give us a topic and we had to do one of those like on the spot things. And I got called and apparently I rolled my eyes because I was just like, oh my God, you know, I don't want to do this, I don't want to be here, or why is this happening? And because I didn't realize we it was during COVID and I didn't realize that we were like you could see it that easily in video.
Speaker 1:And he's like, even though you rolled your eyes at me and you clearly don't want to do this, it's your turn. Oh, like sorry, did you turn red? I did, I did. And it became very hard to do that speech yeah, because I was like, I was panicky, I felt bad, like, and honestly I think it was even like just an involuntary eye roll.
Speaker 2:It was kind of a dick move to call you out on it.
Speaker 1:It's okay. Yeah, well, we spend a lot of time on that. So yeah, cults, we won't start one or investigate one, because I don't have the ability to control my facial expressions or my laughter, apparently.
Speaker 2:Okay, here's the thing, though we can have cool masks for our cult.
Speaker 1:Masks.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we have to wear like a cool mask.
Speaker 1:So they won't be able to see your facial expression Like a scarf or something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they'll.
Speaker 1:Nobody can look on our faces because they'll die, because we're so heavenly, yeah, duh. Okay, that's probably going to hurt people's ears when I put that in the laughter, sorry, we entertain ourselves quite a bit, but yeah, at least we're entertaining somebody. You brought up a good point. It seems like California and New Mexico, more than any other place, has cults. Yeah, like more cults. It's a fact New Mexico has. If you want to start a cult, this is the place to go. We have a lot of them.
Speaker 2:Is there like a website or something where they have statistics? Probably.
Speaker 1:Probably.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because now I'm curious.
Speaker 1:I don't remember what my answer was, but I think it was something along the lines of for whatever reason, these two states attract a lot of woo-woo believers and others, and I don't mean spiritual people.
Speaker 2:Spiritual people.
Speaker 1:I don't mean necessarily woo-woo in a bad way. I'm not trying to mock anybody, but just alternative ways of thinking. I'll change my woo-woo to alternative beliefs.
Speaker 2:I wonder if it's something about the West. Could be Because there are quite a few people in Arizona that are real spiritual too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, for some reason the West has a lot of. There's a lot of people who believe that it is like somehow more connected to like different spiritual planes or whatever and all that stuff. Sure, why not? It's beautiful. I mean I can see it's the like here in.
Speaker 2:New Mexico. The sky looks so big here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's big sky. Things just look so much more different and out of there than other places in the United States. Okay, so I guess we beat that one to death. Yeah, we sure did. That's what editing is for. Yeah, I know. Sorry, Katie, that's okay. What else did we do? Oh, so you watched 10 Things I Hate About you. You've continued watching in the shadows.
Speaker 2:Look how, what we do in the shadows, what we do in the shadows, look how much we talked just from 10 Things I Hate About you, I know, I guess, which is yeah, we've been watching that pretty much every night, like I said earlier, because Jay usually falls asleep and then the next night we start over from the point where they fell asleep from, and so I watched most of the episodes like two or three times a piece. But yeah, it's a very funny show. Yeah, yeah, I recommend it. Well, it has that documentary style. I don't know if you, I have a hard time with those.
Speaker 2:However, it's not. It's vampires, so it's not like super realism you know, yeah, However, there is like an energy vampire character, Colin Robinson, who works like in an office and he sucks people's energy out with me extremely dull and tedious, so that part might make you uncomfortable.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but yeah, I definitely get my energy sucked out in public. Oh my God, me too. But yeah, yeah, we've talked about it lots of times Introverts tend to lose their energy when out and about, and extroverts get their fuel by being out and about and lose their energy. The other way, yeah. So anything else Did you watch?
Speaker 2:Oh was that the original? Was that the original question? That?
Speaker 1:was the original question.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's pretty much been it. I've been wanting to revisit Picard, but pretty much every night I'm like so we can watch Picard or we can watch what we do in the shadows, and Jay always picks what we do in the shadows, so obviously that's their perfect. So, yeah, it was nice to. It was nice to watch 10 Things I Hate About you. That was a bit of a nice change. But again, like I really wanted, I wanted Jay to see it.
Speaker 2:I wanted him to experience it. So I was like wake up, see this part, see that part.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there are so many great scenes in that movie. I know we could do a whole podcast on 10 Things I Hate About you, so maybe we should move on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we should. Okay, so we haven't even talked about what did you watch?
Speaker 1:Well watching. Not a whole lot, just background stuff, but I am excited to watch on. Well, it'll have aired by the time the podcast comes out. But Monday 2020 has a special and I'm excited for that one. I can't remember Well, the name of the show is Bad Romance, but I can't remember the name of anybody involved. But basically one dude, two ladies, one disappears but then it seems she doesn't disappear. Stalks, does other things to man and his girlfriend, and then it turns out to be the girlfriend and the person who supposedly did the stalking is dead. So it's exciting.
Speaker 2:And what day is that coming out again? Monday, monday, yeah. And will it be out on Hulu?
Speaker 1:I'm sure it will. It's just a 2020 in Hulu. I don't know, because I subscribed to the live one, so I get them released right away. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I want to watch that too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think there's another documentary about it, but I could be wrong, I could be confusing the two, I don't know. But I'm excited about that, although I probably won't watch it on Monday because I have work and I will probably be in bed when it comes out. It comes out at like nine or ten at night, so I will be sleeping. Hopefully I've been listening to. So I did two audiobooks, not romance this time. Yeah, me it was. We were going to read them. I think the Rexford and Sloan series it's Regency Mysteries, but I read through audiobook, I think book four and five or five and six, I can't remember. I think it's five and six and so I listened to those, which was exciting. Yeah, it was a change. I hadn't read one of those in like a year, and they're great because they're always science-based and that the 19th century science is like my wheelhouse.
Speaker 1:So it's fun and the characters are great. Rexford is like a sarcastic, he's just fun, he's fun. I like him a lot. So I read those two. I was going to do a third one, but I think I just had to tap out, not because it's bad, but just because I needed a break. Right, I wasn't in the mood to listen to any book. So, since I have such a big commute, I started listening to podcasts. I started listening to True Crime and Cocktails, the last few episodes, and they did a Mother God episode. You said you listened to that one right?
Speaker 2:Yes, I did so. I did listen to a podcast. You did yay mew Yay mew, which I love.
Speaker 1:we're planning on doing the Mother God cult at some point. Yeah, yeah, such a whack. Adieu. Oh, that's a crazy, crazy, crazy case. Yeah, and of course, christy's hilarious in her reporting what else? So that's the only podcast I've listened to. I did some reading. Is that it in my life? I think that's it in my life. Oh, we both read, yep.
Speaker 2:The Diary for our episode 12,.
Speaker 1:Go Ask Alice by. Anonymous, though it's not actually anonymous.
Speaker 2:I gave it one star.
Speaker 1:I'm going to read Did I star it at all? I don't know I didn't. I don't usually put stars because I feel bad Really.
Speaker 2:I didn't even know that I could opt out of that. Yeah, you don't have to put any stars. It's not often I give books.
Speaker 1:I give it a one star. I think, it's the only thing I've starred in, like years. Yeah, oh, my God, I can't wait to talk about it and I can't believe I finished it before you did. I know you kept having to put it down. I powered.
Speaker 2:I had to power through because I put it down and picked it up. You had like a ripped the band-aid off method. Yeah, I kept getting disgusted and casting it away.
Speaker 1:Oh, I was so disgusted. Yeah, I don't want to say necessarily trigger warning, but not even content warning, just warning. I think you do go ahead and read that novel, because it's fucking. It's a novel even though they keep putting it in nonfiction. It is so ridiculous. It is ridiculous and I think, I think truly harmful. But we can get into that later.
Speaker 1:It is it is harmful, yeah, but we can get into that. We'll get into episode 12. And not accurate, not accurate, no, we'll get into an episode 12. Rachel and I both one started, and that I not only do I never star things, but even internally in my head I don't generally give anything below three.
Speaker 2:I cannot believe that some reviewers actually still think that this is a real thing.
Speaker 1:Well, they do put. I mean the, so my edition doesn't have the author's name on it. Yeah, we got the same edition, did we? Yeah, Cause I thought mine was the 50th anniversary one. We got it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but it was different. Oh, oh yeah, it was different. No, but mine also says by anonymous? Yeah, and nowhere in it does it indicate that it was written by a certain person, that it is not an actual diary, but on Goodreads it says yeah by the person, yeah, and and people are still saying that they believe it's.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know.
Speaker 2:We're not going to talk about it too much because we're going to talk about it in a forthcoming episode.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I my, my point is just that a lot of it's it's partly the publisher's part. They, they want to publish it that way it is and be Yep, fraudulent, I would say, which I think is also harmful.
Speaker 2:Well, and I wonder how many like parents of like, especially like kind of more like conservative parents are like like you kids read this and this is what happens.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't doubt it.
Speaker 2:If you put in shit like you smoke pot, this is going to be your fate. Like, come the fuck on yeah.
Speaker 1:We'll talk. Okay, we'll talk about it later, later. Okay, so we both read that it was garbage. Yep, it was so bad that I took the time and broke my rule and actually rated it, yeah.
Speaker 2:So, and even though you're a historian and can view it within the historical context yes, it was written in you still won't start it. Yeah, so that should tell you some stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so yeah, I guess that's it. We're kind of drowning again.
Speaker 2:I mean, that was such a damaging, I guess we should wait, hold it, we'll save it.
Speaker 1:We'll save it. We could probably do a whole podcast. We could go through each quote unquote diary entry and talk about all the things that are wrong about it. Right, okay? So I think that's it for both of us. We both seem to be other than getting perked up about bashing this book.
Speaker 2:Did you read the little excerpt, the little at the back of mine? It had like a little thing like this is an excerpt from the other book and I was like I can't even read that one.
Speaker 1:I don't know. I don't think so, I don't know if the book is one of her other fake journals yeah, jay's Journal.
Speaker 2:She has a lot of them.
Speaker 1:I would actually like to read that one, just because not because I think it would be good, but just because I want to see how bad it is.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because the satanic panic is one of my favorite errors. I read like the first paragraph of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I was like, yeah, I was like this is how she thinks that, like teenage boys talk right. Yeah, I was like oh, my boy scout master said that I should really keep a journal because it's real keen, or some shit like that. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So that, yeah, they all sound horrible. Yeah, they do. Yeah, so the reason we're keeping it till episode 12 is because that is one of the books that our true crime book is talking about. The book for episode 12 is called Unmask Alice, LSD, satanic Panic and the imposter behind the world's most notorious diaries, by Rick Emerson. I've only read a handful of pages, but it's very readable. Yeah, and I'll put it in the show notes. And, speaking of show notes, that is where we keep our socials, so we have a Facebook, instagram, email, and then we've got our personal instas as well, and I guess it's like follow, review, download. Downloads are very helpful, please, and very appreciated.
Speaker 2:If you like us, I mean yeah, then we would appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Very much and we'd like to hear from you. You can have questions or tell us what you like or don't like, or what you think we should talk about next, because I mean, we've got crimes in the back of our heads. But that doesn't mean that we're necessarily going to do those right away. So we do. So if you have one that you'd like to hear, you can also pass that along. If you have any true crime bugs you would like us to read or cover, oh yeah, that's a good idea.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because I just randomly go to the store and if there's two copies, I just kind of look around and see we picked this one because I was like. I was like oh, lsd, satanic Panic. I was like that sounds interesting. I just plucked it off the shelf.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and there were two copies. The two copies is also a big way that we pick things. Okay, so we'll see you in episode 10, which is going to be part one of two for Rachel. She's doing Lucy, let Be so. She's covering the first few deaths in episode 10 and then in episode 11, she will be covering the rest of the deaths and the trial and some of the questions remaining. So we will talk to you then.
Speaker 2:Bye, bye.