Rachel brings us another two-parter for episode 10. This time it's on the Lucy Letby case. There's no missing person this week for reasons explained in the episode. We also talk about what we've watched and read since episode 9.
Our next book is "Unmask Alice: LSD, Satanic Panic, and the Imposter Behind the World's Most Notorious Diaries" by Rick Emerson. We will also be reading Go Ask Alice (one of the "diaries" mentioned in the book). We'll discuss both in episode 12.
Sources:*
BBC News Sepsis: Some NHS Hospitals Missing Treatment Target.
Daniel Boffey New Evidence Claimed To Undermine Nurse’s Conviction For Killing Patients. The Guardian.
Hiya Boro, et al. Insulin Autoimmune Syndrome-A Case Series. Touch Endocrinology.
Kim Collins, et al. Cardiopulmonary Resuscitation Injuries In Children. Forensic Pathology Of Infancy And Childhood.
Paddy Dinham Police Investigate The Deaths Of 15 Babies In A Single Year At The Countess Of Chester Hospital. The Daily Mail.
Mark Dowling Lucy Letby Accused Of Faking Medical Entries To Cover Tracks. The Chester Standard.
Holly Evans Lucy Letby Judge Says He Will Accept Majority Verdicts In Baby Murder Trials. The Independent.
Evidence Based Justice Lab. Miscarriages Of Justice: Women. Psychology, Data Science, and Law At The University Of Exeter Law School.
Ewan Gawne & PA Media Killer Nurse Lucy Letby Found Unfit To Practise And Struck Struck Off Register. BBC News.
Stephanie Gordy and Susan Rowell, Vascular Air Embolism. International Journal Of Critical Illness And Injury Science 3(1).
Josh Halliday, et al Timeline Of Lucy Letby’s Attacks On Babies And When Alarm Was Raised. The Guardian.
Liz Hull and Caroline Cheetham The Trial Of Lucy Letby. The Daily Mail.
Rose Kivi (Medically Reviewed ) Air Embolism. Healthline.
Lucy Letby Case Wiki Tattle Life.
Cathleen O’Grady Unlucky Numbers: Richard Gill Is Fighting The Shoddy Statistics That Put Nurses In Prison For Serial Murder. Science.
Nikki Peach Here’s Everything To Know About Lucy Letby’s Parents And Family Background. Grazia Daily.
I Pedal, et al Air Embolism Or Putrefaction? Gas Analysis Findings And Their Interpretations. Z Rechtsmed 99(3).
Rapid Risk Assessment Enterovirus Detections Associated With Severe Neurological Symptoms In Children And Adults In European Countries. European Centre For Disease Prevention And Control.
Staff Reporter Number Of Serious Mistakes Made By Staff At Countess Of Chester Hospital Increases. The Leader.
Julian W. Tang, et al. Cluster Of Human Parechovirus Infections As The Dominant Cause Of Sepsis In Neonates And Infants, Leicester, United Kingdom, 8 May To 2 August 2016. Eurosurveillance 21(34).
Senthil K. Venugopal, et al Biochemistry, C Peptide. National Library Of Medicine.
URLs available upon request.
Socials:
Instagram: Details Are Sketchy - @details.are.sketchy
Facebook: Details Are Sketchy - @details.are.sketchy.2023
Instagram: Kiki - @kikileona84
Instagram: Rachel - @eeniemanimeenienailz
Email: details.are.sketchy.pod@gmail.com
Rachel brings us another two-parter for episode 10. This time it's on the Lucy Letby case. There's no missing person this week for reasons explained in the episode. We also talk about what we've watched and read since episode 9.
Our next book is "Unmask Alice: LSD, Satanic Panic, and the Imposter Behind the World's Most Notorious Diaries" by Rick Emerson. We will also be reading Go Ask Alice (one of the "diaries" mentioned in the book). We'll discuss both in episode 12.
Sources:*
BBC News Sepsis: Some NHS Hospitals Missing Treatment Target.
Daniel Boffey New Evidence Claimed To Undermine Nurse’s Conviction For Killing Patients. The Guardian.
Hiya Boro, et al. Insulin Autoimmune Syndrome-A Case Series. Touch Endocrinology.
Kim Collins, et al. Cardiopulmonary Resuscitation Injuries In Children. Forensic Pathology Of Infancy And Childhood.
Paddy Dinham Police Investigate The Deaths Of 15 Babies In A Single Year At The Countess Of Chester Hospital. The Daily Mail.
Mark Dowling Lucy Letby Accused Of Faking Medical Entries To Cover Tracks. The Chester Standard.
Holly Evans Lucy Letby Judge Says He Will Accept Majority Verdicts In Baby Murder Trials. The Independent.
Evidence Based Justice Lab. Miscarriages Of Justice: Women. Psychology, Data Science, and Law At The University Of Exeter Law School.
Ewan Gawne & PA Media Killer Nurse Lucy Letby Found Unfit To Practise And Struck Struck Off Register. BBC News.
Stephanie Gordy and Susan Rowell, Vascular Air Embolism. International Journal Of Critical Illness And Injury Science 3(1).
Josh Halliday, et al Timeline Of Lucy Letby’s Attacks On Babies And When Alarm Was Raised. The Guardian.
Liz Hull and Caroline Cheetham The Trial Of Lucy Letby. The Daily Mail.
Rose Kivi (Medically Reviewed ) Air Embolism. Healthline.
Lucy Letby Case Wiki Tattle Life.
Cathleen O’Grady Unlucky Numbers: Richard Gill Is Fighting The Shoddy Statistics That Put Nurses In Prison For Serial Murder. Science.
Nikki Peach Here’s Everything To Know About Lucy Letby’s Parents And Family Background. Grazia Daily.
I Pedal, et al Air Embolism Or Putrefaction? Gas Analysis Findings And Their Interpretations. Z Rechtsmed 99(3).
Rapid Risk Assessment Enterovirus Detections Associated With Severe Neurological Symptoms In Children And Adults In European Countries. European Centre For Disease Prevention And Control.
Staff Reporter Number Of Serious Mistakes Made By Staff At Countess Of Chester Hospital Increases. The Leader.
Julian W. Tang, et al. Cluster Of Human Parechovirus Infections As The Dominant Cause Of Sepsis In Neonates And Infants, Leicester, United Kingdom, 8 May To 2 August 2016. Eurosurveillance 21(34).
Senthil K. Venugopal, et al Biochemistry, C Peptide. National Library Of Medicine.
URLs available upon request.
Socials:
Instagram: Details Are Sketchy - @details.are.sketchy
Facebook: Details Are Sketchy - @details.are.sketchy.2023
Instagram: Kiki - @kikileona84
Instagram: Rachel - @eeniemanimeenienailz
Email: details.are.sketchy.pod@gmail.com
I'm Kiki and I'm Rachel and this is. Details Are Skechy, a True Crime Podcast, and we don't know what episode this is. We're recording about what? Seven days or so before Christmas, no ten days, nine days, whatever we're recording before Christmas and this will probably come out in late January or February.
Speaker 2:Advanced recording.
Speaker 1:Yes, because Rachel has another two parter for us, so we wanted to spread it out. It's the Lucy Let Be Case who was recently found guilty of killing seven babies, and Rachel has some questions about that. I do too, and I think a lot of people do.
Speaker 2:But my daughter just sorry, it's okay Texting me like a bajillion emojis. Oh, your child. She said me, me make avatar.
Speaker 1:What a goose. So this is the Lucy. Let Be Case part one. Do you have a missing person? No, I mentioned that at lunch, that we would just record your thing, Since we're doing this very late.
Speaker 2:I don't have a missing person.
Speaker 1:later We'll add it in.
Speaker 2:That's true. The missing person might be found.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly. So, although that was not my thought, my thought was I am unprepared, it's not my fault. It was finals week and I had a commencement I had to go to as a whole thing.
Speaker 2:No, she's been very busy and I've been sick, well, perpetually sick, and I've been so mired in the details of this case that I'm having trouble seeing the forest for the trees, kind of situation. But what I have for you today is that we're going to present about the cases of about half of the well let me just go by saying that.
Speaker 2:So Lucy Let Be is the UK neonatal nurse who, in August of this year, was recently convicted of the murder of seven babies on the attempted murder of six additional babies between June 2015 and June 2016 while working in the neonatal intensive care unit of the Countess of Chester Hospital in the UK city of Chester. According to the trial of Lucy Let Be podcast and the Guardian, so she was found not guilty of the attempted murder of wait, what was I was this note I was making.
Speaker 2:I know, but she was she's convicted of seven and that's.
Speaker 1:Those are the ones you're talking about right.
Speaker 2:I said she was found not of the attempted murder, so basically she was actually. I have the statistics right here. So she was found guilty of the murder of seven infants. She was found guilty of the attempted murder of six infants.
Speaker 2:She was found not guilty on two attempted murder charges and she there was no verdict on four murder charges, and some of those are overlapping because she was accused of attempting murder in multiple incidents on some of the same children, and so there was no verdict for one attempted murder charge of child H, no verdict for attempted murder charge of child J, no verdict for child K and no very for child Q and the verdict are not guilty for child G and one not guilty verdict for child H as well. Okay, and so she was found guilty of the murder of child A, child C, child D, child E, child I, child O and child P, and guilty of the attempted murder of child B, child F, child G on two charges plus one charge not guilty, child L, child M and child N. Today I wanted to take you through the cases of Hold on just a second.
Speaker 1:I couldn't tell if that was you doing this or if it was the dog. So just so we're clear if you hear clicking noises, it's the dog.
Speaker 2:She's settling, oh is that why you handed me the fidget, because you thought it was clicking, but it was the dog, yeah it was the dog.
Speaker 1:Yeah, poor Lenny. Lenny is very distressed today.
Speaker 2:I can understand why you would think it was me.
Speaker 1:Well, I wasn't I just wasn't sure it took me a minute.
Speaker 2:So today I'm going to go over the circumstances surrounding the murder or attempted murder of baby A, baby B, baby C, baby D, baby E, baby F and baby G. Then next time we're going to talk about the remaining six babies. I am not going to talk about babies H, j, k and Q that there was no conviction on. Maybe we'll touch on that at the end if we have time, not today, but maybe in the second one. Sure, we'll touch on those if we have time, but since this is already going to be long, I figured I would do us all a favor.
Speaker 1:And not have another two hour episode.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, not to say Obviously these are little lives of little babies that were lost, and so obviously we want to do their lives a service. So let me go ahead and get started with a little bit of a background here. So we already talked briefly about the convictions. So these convictions follow a 10 month trial and jury deliberations that lasted over 110 hours. According to the Guardian, this case marks one of the most high profile serial killer cases in recent history, which is why I wanted to cover it, and makes Lucy Letby the fourth woman ever in British history to serve a whole life sentence. Actually, she was handed a whole life sentence for every conviction, including the convictions of attempted murder, which is pretty much unheard of in a UK court I should say the UK justice system. Here I will deal with some of the background of Lucy Letby, the circumstances surrounding the case, and then next time, hopefully, we'll talk about her arrest and conviction and possibly touch on a few similar cases and we will discuss why some people feel that this case may represent a miscarriage of justice.
Speaker 2:Lucy Letby was born on January 4th 1990, which absolutely blew my mind. I knew that she was this young, but it blows my mind that somebody younger than me has been convicted of being a serial killer In Hereford, england to John and Susan Letby, a furniture store manager and an accountant, now age 77 and 63 respectively. She's an only child who had what Grazia Daly described as a normal upbringing. She attended Alice Dome School in Hereford sixth form college before going on to the University of Chester for her nursing degree. She's reported to be a first generation college graduate. Upon graduation, her parents put an announcement in the local newspaper that read Lucy Letby, bsc Hans in child nursing. We are so proud of you after all your hard work. Love mom and dad. There is no evidence that Lucy Letby experienced any abuse or neglect in childhood.
Speaker 1:Excuse me, we're just going to be slurping our tears during this episode.
Speaker 2:We're not going to be doing anything or exhibited any problematic behaviors or got any trouble at home or in school. Kiki made us some really nice tea before we got started, so her parents were very supportive of her life and career choices and helped her to buy a house near the Countess of Chester Hospital she worked at At times their support may have hinged. What kind of sentences may have hinged on her? Excessively is what I wrote, which is kind of a ridiculous sentence.
Speaker 1:Well then, I'm going to cough again. I haven't coughed all week.
Speaker 2:Of course. Now I've been coughing, like in the evenings. I've been like okay, all day, and in the evenings for some reason I can't stop coughing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, whenever I think about recording, I start to cough. I think it's psychosomatic because I'm worried about coughing.
Speaker 2:You want to psychoanalyze us listeners? I mean, you don't have to, don't, actually, but anyway. So her parents were very supportive for life and career choices and they helped her buy a house near the Countess of Chester Hospital where she worked at. I'm not sure. They kind of tried to describe what kind of house it was, but they described it like Britishy terms and so I'm not sure exactly. It sounded like maybe it was like a townhouse.
Speaker 1:See, I'm confused by that, because the one I listened to, who was a guy who was in the court and I don't think it was just him that said it, but she was in hospital housing, then she moved out, then she went back to hospital housing.
Speaker 2:So, from my understanding, she started in hospital housing and then her parents helped her to buy this house, where upon she moved. I thought she got arrested in the hospital housing, though no my understanding, she got arrested once at her own home and once at her parents home, or she got arrested three times, so I'm not sure where the third time was.
Speaker 1:I can get pictures confused because there were several different outside.
Speaker 2:She got arrested multiple times. Yeah, okay so, but we'll get to that later, or actually we'll get to that in the next episode. So at times, their support may have. I don't know what I was writing. May have hinged on her excessively I think I was trying to write. May have graded on her excessively with text revealing during the trial. Revealed during the trial, showing that Lucy felt guilty for having moved away. Lucy, let me. Parents have stood by their daughter and have continued to profess her innocence.
Speaker 2:So Lucy, let me started working as a registered nurse in the neonatal unit at the Countess of Chester Hospital in 2012. She underwent special training at Liverpool Women's Hospital in 2012 and early 2015. So two like separate occasions. According to a 2013 performance report, she was quote caring for a wide variety of babies requiring various levels of support, and quote and that she light quote seeing them progress and supporting their families, and quote Around this time, lucy. Let me also participate in a campaign to raise funds for the hospital's neonatal unit. Let me qualified to work for infants in the neonatal intensive care unit in 2015.
Speaker 2:The same year that a surge of deaths and accidents occurred, way beyond the normal range for the unit and for what the hospital had previously experienced in earlier years. According to the Daily Mail UK, in 2017, the police were investigating the deaths of 15 babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital during the same period, lucy let me as charged as being active from June 2015 to June 2016. Let me was charged with the murders of seven babies during this period and the attempted murders of a further 10 children. If you recall, she was found guilty of the murder of all seven babies she was charged with murdering and the attempted murder of six of the 10 babies she was charged with. I will detail each instance which resulted in a conviction Trigger warning child death, child abuse, attacks on children, sensitive medical I don't know what else to say.
Speaker 2:If you're really sensitive about babies and medical stuff, take care. Okay, baby A. Baby A was a twin boy born six weeks premature at 31 weeks, along with his twin sister, baby B, by C-section. Baby A was considered an intensive care baby and treated in nursery one. So in the Countess of Chester Hospital I always get to name this they had four levels of neonatal intensive care unit nurseries. Nursery one was the most intensive unit for the most delicate, most premature, sickest babies that required the most intense support. Then they had a nursery two, which were for babies that required intensive support but maybe a little bit less support than the ones in nursery one, and then they had nursery three and four, which, as far as I could tell, were on equivalent levels of care, which were for babies that required less intensive care.
Speaker 1:Then the other two, and the number of babies were assigned to each nurse increased with each level so level one, it was one on one. Level two Absolutely.
Speaker 2:I think at level four, and four.
Speaker 1:You had four babies for one nursery.
Speaker 2:Yes, levels three and four, you could have up to four babies. Level two it was two babies per nurse and level one, just one baby per nurse. However, as you'll see in a few instances, they didn't always follow those rules.
Speaker 1:No, they were understaffed, like most of the hospitals in the area.
Speaker 2:Yes, and they were particularly overstaffed this year.
Speaker 1:Understaffed.
Speaker 2:Understaffed yes, that's what I meant to say, understaffed and also there was a lot of babies that year that required intensive care. So now we understand the basics about their neonatal unit and their neonatal unit was considered was called a tertiary unit, which is like a medium severity kind of unit, so they could take babies that had kind of a medium level of severity of need, but they couldn't take the most delicate, most sick babies. Those had to be, or were supposed to be, cared for at other hospitals nearby that had more extensive units and more specialized care available. However, in a few instances we'll also see that, because various circumstances or those hospitals were full up, that babies that were possibly beyond their capacity to care for were cared for at the countess Okay. So again, here we go. I keep getting sidetracked because my head is full of information about this case and it's all flowing around All right. So baby A's mother was considered a high risk pregnancy because she had an autoimmune disease that increases the risk for blood clots and she had high blood pressure, which can cause a deadly condition for pregnancy called preeclampsia. Despite all this, baby A was considered to be in good condition and breathing on his own In June 8th 2015,.
Speaker 2:Within 24 hours of his birth, baby A who weighed three pounds four ounces. Now let me add a little caveat. I took this information out of the baby's weight from the Lucy Leppie Trials podcast. These are probably British pounds. It was said to deteriorate 30 minutes after being signed over to the care of Lucy Leppie as his designated nurse and stop breathing. According to the prosecution, this is when Lucy Leppie introduced air into his bloodstream via a glucose strip that she had set up. Dr David Harkness, the senior doctor on duty, administered CPR along with Lucy Leppie, three other nurses on duty and the consultant doctor on staff, dr Ravi J Ram. Unfortunately, efforts failed to revive baby A and the decision was made to cease resuscitation efforts as nothing more could be done. After the death of baby A, lucy Leppie was recorded as taking his hand and footprint and a lock of hair for the parent's memory, with their consent.
Speaker 2:A post-mortem revealed no immediate cause of death, but doctors agree that the mother's pre-existing condition was not the cause. Dr J Ram recalled an unusual rash present on baby A, but no rash was noted in any clinical notes. This rash is one of the prosecution's main evidence of their cause of death, of air embolism as this type of rash is known to appear in the case of air embolism, in one in five babies, according to studies. It is important to note, however, that air embolism cannot be absolutely determined by this symptom or by imaging, as is used in some causes to support a determination of this cause. The only post-mortem test that can prove air embolism is a gas chromatography test of the blood post-mortem, while Doppler ultrasound is preferred for diagnosis of living patients. According to a research paper I read, it is quote difficult to document as a cause of death due to absorption of air prior to autopsy end quote. Lucy Levy's defense noted that baby A went four hours without fluids prior to his collapse, but the expert witnesses stated that this could not account for the severity of the decline. Five days after the death death that sounded weird. Five days after the death of baby A, let me express concern via WhatsApp to a colleague that she was not content being moved to nursery three, a nursery with more robust babies, and that she would prefer to be moved back to nursery one with the most delicate and sick babies. To quote overcome it. End quote. Her colleague responded that she meaning Lucy needed a break from the ICU, but Lucy insisted that getting back into the nursery into nursery one specifically was how she had learned to cope with the trauma of losing infant patients, saying that her colleagues should quote respect her wishes and that she felt that there was not much teamwork. So there's a bunch of text messages. I'm not gonna refer too much to the text messages because largely I feel like they don't say much, but there are a few cases, like in this one, where I do find that they are of interest.
Speaker 2:Baby B is the twin sister of baby A. 20 hours after Lucy Leppy allegedly murdered her brother, leppy is alleged to have injected air into his sister as well. Baby B was born weighing three pounds 11 ounce, so despite that she was born larger than baby A. She was born in not as great condition. She was born blue and floppy and she needed breathing assistance and was placed on an incubator in nursery one.
Speaker 2:After the death of their son, their parents spent all day with their remaining baby, but that evening they had to leave for some rest. That evening Baby B collapsed. Lucy Leppy was not Baby B's designated nurse, but she did help her designated nurse start a feedback and take her blood gases, which is like the oxygen measuring, like the oxygen level and stuff in their blood. 25 minutes later, baby B's monitor went off and Lucy Leppy went over to her incubator as Baby B's designated nurse was busy with another baby. See, there's supposed to be one to one care, but in this case seems like there was another baby. Okay, baby gone. Lucy Leppy called for help, saying she's apneaic, which apparently meant she had stopped breathing. The other nurse described Baby B as being quote pale and white with a purple blotch discoloration end quote. She felt Baby B's deterioration was similar to Baby A's. The team rushed in and Baby B was given a breathing tube and began to stabilize within 15 minutes. Baby B survived. X-rays of Baby B did not show air in her blood vessels as X-rays of Baby A did, but she did have gas in her bowels.
Speaker 2:Baby C was a tiny premature baby who weighed less than two pounds when he was born by C-section at 30 weeks. A nurse caring for Baby C described him quote as the smallest baby she's ever seen. End quote. His mother had a high risk pregnancy with low blood flow through the placenta that had restricted his growth in the womb. He was only half the expected size for his gestation and was expected to be a stillborn. He was placed in nursery one the nursery, if you remember, for the sickest babies in the ward. Baby C has a breathing difficulties and was being treated for pneumonia, but he was described by a nurse on the ward as feisty, and it was reported he was doing better than was expected with the strength to pull out his tubes. He was considered to be improving and his breathing support was being reduced and he was going to start to be fed, when previously they had been giving him food intravenously. However, on the evening of June 13th 2015, he collapsed and died.
Speaker 2:Lucy Leppy was not Baby C's designated nurse at the time of his death. She had been assigned to a baby in nursery C. That evening, baby C's designated nurse was a newly qualified nurse who was working under the supervision of a more senior nurse. That nurse gave Baby C his first feed ever of milk at 11 pm. Nurses had held off on giving him his first feeding because they had aspirated black bile from his stomach a few hours earlier. 15 minutes later, baby C stopped breathing. Baby C's designated nurse had taken a break and returned when she heard an alarm sound. When she returned, lucy Leppy was given a break and when she returned.
Speaker 2:Lucy Leppy was standing by Baby C's cot and reportedly said quote he just had a brady and a desat and quote meaning that the oxygen levels in his blood had fallen. He started to recover on his own and the nurse went to work on her computer with her back turned and 15 minutes later his oxygen levels dropped again. The nurse turned back around and saw that Lucy Leppy was still standing by his cot side. Lucy Leppy and the designated nurse gave Baby C rescue breaths with an oxygen mask, but Baby C didn't respond. So the nurse put in a crash call to the doctor. 11 minutes after Baby C collapsed, the doctor arrived and started performing CPR.
Speaker 2:Baby C survived for five more hours but eventually passed away. At around five in the morning A senior nurse reported that Lucy Leppy kept hanging around the family room and had to be reminded to attend to her designated baby. The mother of the baby recalled a nurse coming into the room and saying, trying to take the baby away, saying you said your goodbyes and the parents being aghast because their baby had not passed away yet, but she couldn't completely remember if it was Lucy Leppy or not. A post-mortem report listed Baby C's cause of death as natural causes. However, dr Evans, an expert witness for the prosecution, concluded that the death was not natural and the prosecution argued Lucy Leppy killed Baby C by injecting air directly into his stomach via his feeding tube, causing his diaphragm to rupture and causing suffocation.
Speaker 2:Baby D was a baby girl who was the only baby in this case not born prematurely. She was born weighing six pounds eight ounces and should not have been admitted to the NICU if the hospital had made some pretty egregious errors in her mother's maternal care. Her mother's water had broke 60 hours before Baby D was born. Once the water breaks, a baby is exposed to the external environment and bacteria can get into the womb, causing an infection, which is what happened. So Baby D's mother went home and came back, was admitted after 24 hours and then was made to wait until 60 hours after her water broke. They had tried to induce, but it wasn't successful. But it wasn't until the 60 hour mark when doctors finally decided to give her an emergency C-section, which in my opinion is a ridiculously long time. And not once did anyone give this woman antibiotics, although doctors reported Baby D was in good condition and in fact she even received an APGAR score of eight and nine when she was born, baby D's mom was not convinced.
Speaker 2:Baby D's mother reported that when the doctor held Baby D up in the operating room over the curtain that they put up when you get a C-section, she seemed oh, she quote, seemed lifeless. She didn't scream, there was no sound and everything was quiet in the room. End quote 12 minutes after her birth, baby D collapsed in her father's arms. She needed rescue breaths of oxygen and she was resuscitated, but she still seemed unwell, looking gray and limp and showing no interest in feeding. Initially the doctor told Baby D's mother that she was fine, but Baby D's mother insisted on a second opinion. Good for you, baby D's mother. You have to advocate for your child. And eventually Baby D was admitted to the NICU for respiratory problems. Doctors told Baby D's parents that she needed to be intubated to help with her breathing and that she needed antibiotics. Doctors suspected sepsis, a serious infection. Baby D's mother was also not feeling well, having just had a C-section.
Speaker 2:But the following night, after Baby D was admitted to the NICU, the parents were able to go visit Baby D together. Lucy Letby was not Baby D's designated nurse that evening. However, while Baby D's in nursery one were supposed to be receiving one-to-one care. That night the ward was short staffed and Baby D's nurse had another patient to care for, also a Baby in nursery two. And that night Lucy Letby was the designated three babies to care for Both the other two babies in nursery one and one baby in another nursery. When Baby D's mom arrived in nursery one, lucy Letby was the only nurse I almost said noose. Baby D's mom reported that Lucy was hovering around but that she didn't seem to be doing much. According to Lucy Letby's defense attorney, lucy was not recorded as being on shift at the time. However, baby D's mother reported to sing her in nursery one and insist that it was her.
Speaker 2:During the night shift, baby D collapsed three times around 1.30 am, around 3 am and around 3.45 am, according to the prosecution. Mr Johnson, kc, british lawyer, sound so cool. Quote on occasion these those attending were struck by the sight of modeling, poor perfusion and Brown slash, black discoloration to her skin, mainly the trunk, and quote the prosecution argued that Lucy Letby had injected baby D with air at 115. Baby D's designated nurse recorded observations of baby D at at 125 am. Baby D's designated nurse and Lucy Letby both signed off on the start of an IV. At 130, it was noted that she was aspirated by drawing liquid up through her nasogastric tube. At 129, a doctor recorded an unusual spreading non blanching rash.
Speaker 2:Letby's notes report she was caring for another baby at the time of baby D's collapse, but nursing notes also indicate both nurses Called doctors to the room upon baby D's collapse. The prosecution argued that either the notes were inaccurate or that let be had altered the notes to set up an alibi on someone else's medical records. At 240 am, baby D's designated nurse and Lucy Letby recorded and ministering medication to baby D and this was something that that I Saw a lot and I wondered if it was Hospital policy. And I asked my mom, who was a CNA, but she wasn't sure About this kind of policy. It seemed like if they started something like a medication or something like that that always, like two nurses, was sign off on it, and so that's why I was wondering if it was Policy, but I couldn't find that out definitively. Yeah, baby D's designated nurse then left the room.
Speaker 2:At 3 am, let me was alone in nursery one when baby D collapsed a second time. At 320, let me is recorded as starting another IV for baby D and Remained in the room reporting caring for another baby in the nursing notes at 3 30 am. At 345 am Baby D had her third and final collapse. Cpr was administered but she was pronounced dead at 4 25 am. The coroner listed cause of death as ammonia with acute lung injury, but the expert witnesses argued that the multiple collapses were not consistent with a pneumonia diagnosis and, as I had stated earlier, the prosecution argued that Lucy let be had injected air into baby D's IV. So on July 2nd 2015, dr Steven Breary, the head consultant on the neonatal unit, carried out the first review on the three unusual deaths. Alice and Kelly, the director of nursing and deputy chief executive, was told that let Lucy let be was the only nurse on shift for all three of the deaths. But let me let Lucy. Let me remain on the neonatal unit wait, I've always been confused by that.
Speaker 1:So she's just the one that's in common for all three. Is that what they're saying? She was on shift for all three, yeah but, there were other nurses, because they always say she's the only nurse. They don't expand to say she's the only one in common with all three babies, she's not the only nurse there.
Speaker 2:She's just the only nurse in common in common for all.
Speaker 2:Okay for that present on shift right when all three babies collapsed. Okay, okay. Baby E was a twin baby boy, born premature, 10 weeks premature and weighing less than three pounds. He was the twin brother of baby F. The twins were not supposed to have been at the Countess of Chester Hospital, but their mother had a high-risk pregnancy and the babies had a condition caused by sharing a placenta in the womb which caused them to grow at different rates. They were supposed to be born at Liverpool Hospital, a more advanced hospital able to offer more specialty care, but at the time of their birth Liverpool did not have any room available for them.
Speaker 2:Baby E Was the stronger of the two babies, but he was still in delicate condition and at risk for serious gastrointestinal disorders. Any you see, which is short for necrotizing pterocolitis, a serious gastrointestinal problem that mostly affects premature babies, in which the condition inflames intestinal tissue, causing it to die. A hole or perforation may form in In you, the babies intestine, and bacteria can leak into the abdomen, belly or bloodstream through the hole. And he Was immediately started on antibiotics, ivy fluids and caffeine. I couldn't find out why he was started on caffeine. I'm sure that there is a good reason for that.
Speaker 2:I guess something about dilating blood vessels and giving oxygen first, then weaned on to air, so he was placed in nursery. One baby E was reported to have quote mild transient high blood sugar and quote which was being treated with small doses of insulin and tiny quantities of milk, like two mils of milk, which is an insanely small amount. Every two hours two days after birth he vomited twice and Air was aspirated, but fees were considered to be well tolerated. Oh wait, and the amount was increased to two mils, so it wasn't even two mils at first.
Speaker 2:Nursing notes indicate he was responding well to treatment. At 9 pm On August 3rd 2015, the mother decided to visit her twins and bring them some expressed breast milk. When the mother of E and F arrived at the nursery, she reported she could hear her son crying and screaming in distress. Lucy let be was at the workstation in the nursery room taking notes and the mom of E and F Approached, ease, caught and tried to settle him by placing her hand on his stomach. When she did so, she noticed there was some blood around baby E's mouth. When she brought this up to Lucy let be, she was told it had probably been caused by his feeding tube rubbing against the back of his throat and mouth. Let be assured the mom of E and F, a doctor would be there soon to check on baby E. Quote trust me, I'm a nurse. Let be assured her Let be's notes report that prior to the 9 pm Feed she had aspirated Mucky slightly astane aspirate obtained and discarded.
Speaker 2:Abdomen soft, not distended. Sho or senior house officer informed to omit feed and quote this senior house officer or, I guess, the doctor on duty Reported to not recall these events. However, according to the Cleveland clinics Page on necrotizing Enterocolitis, the first step in treating babies with any, you see, is to stop regular feeds and start IV feedings. I so that would be consistent with that Pathology. Ooh, look at me, I sound fancy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you do.
Speaker 2:At 10 pm Lucy let be's nurse notes record quote 15 mils of Fresh blood, which would be quite a lot of blood for such a tiny little baby. At 1020 the doctor on registrar examine baby and was informed he had experienced quote blood flecked vomit and quote around 11 pm Baby E vomited up 30 mils of blood and According to the prosecution this was the first indication of a serious medical problem as far as the medical staff was concerned and quote the amount that baby E had bled thus far Represented 25% of his total blood volume, so it was quite serious. At 1140 am baby E experienced a desaturation or loss of oxygen levels. His abdomen exhibited discoloration with white and purple patches. Nurse let be was recorded as participating in the resuscitation but she was also recorded around the same time as co-signing off on a Medication and ministered to another patient. Around the same time baby E passed away at 140 am and the on-call consultant reported that baby E was a high risk baby who had shown signs of Necrotizing Ontario colitis. Lucy's let be notes on the timing of the mom of E and F visits Do not match the testimony given by the mom of E and F and the prosecution Argued that this suggests Lucy let be doctored the notes to craft an alibi for herself. Lucy, let be reported that mom of E and E Visited at the start of her shift around 730 to 8 o'clock and then again around 10 o'clock, while the mom of E and F Reported visiting around 9 o'clock. The mom of E and F also reported calling her husband after the visit and Phone records indicate she did place a call to her husband and 9 11, which is consistent with the timeline she reported. The prosecution's expert witness Testified that child's ease death quote was a combination of air embolism and bleeding indicative of trauma and quote the abdominal discoloration Reported on baby E was reported as evidence of air embolism Haven't been having been introduced into baby E's IV by Lucy let be.
Speaker 2:Baby F was a baby boy, the twin brother of baby E. He was the younger twin, born about a minute after baby E and he weighed about three pounds three ounces at birth. He was the heavier of the two twins but he was also the weaker twin at birth, requiring resuscitation and Having to stay on a ventilator from birth. However, by August 3 he was able to be taken off the ventilator and Staff was considering that the twins Might be well enough to be moved to another hospital to be closer to where their parents lived. However, that evening baby E Collapsed and died, as I have just recounted.
Speaker 2:On the morning of August 4th the twins parents were in shock and grief and Desperate to get baby F out of the counties of Chester Hospital to their local hospital. However, no ambulances were available to transport baby F that evening. When Lucy let be came back on shift, the prosecution argued she poisoned baby F with insulin and they argued Baby F was the first baby that let be attempted to murder via insulin poisoning. Lucy let be arrived on shift around 7 30 and she was not baby F's designated nurse. That evening Baby F had actually been moved into nursery too after the death of his brother. If you recall, nursery to is the nursery for babies who were high dependency but not as delicate and high needs as the babies on nursery one. Wait, I'm sorry, can you say that again?
Speaker 1:A baby. F is on to the so yes to.
Speaker 2:So baby F have been moved onto nursery to after the death of his brother got you, and nursery to is the nursery in which babies are allowed to receive to on one care right To babies per nurse. Lucy let be was designated to another baby in nursery to that evening. Well, baby F and baby E has some blood sugar issues upon birth. Doctors who examined baby F Six hours before he was allegedly attacked Notice his blood sugar levels had stabilized. He was using an oxygen mask and was on a round of antibiotics. Baby F was being fed via special TNP bags prepared by the aseptic pharmacy unit as prescribed by a position physician From counties of Chester Hospital. These feed bags are bespoke for individual patients and Delivered to the ward as needed. According to the prosecution quote, if, for whatever reason, there is a need for a TNP bag, there are a couple of stock bags kept on reserve.
Speaker 2:At this point baby F was receiving some of his mother's Express milk via his nasogastric tube. As well as Some of these prescribed feed bags were nutrients were delivered via IV. The prosecution argues that these bags were sabotaged with insulin by Lucy levy. The prosecution argues that around midnight on August 4th Lucy levy attempted to poison baby F with insulin added to his feedback. Around two hours later, baby F experienced what doctors described as a hypoglycemic episode an Unexpected drop in his blood sugar Accompanied by vomiting of milk and a spike in his heart rate.
Speaker 2:No blood sugar can cause seizures, respiratory distress and Potentially even cause brain damage or death. If untreated Doctors treated baby F with dextrose, glucose saline and antibiotics, by the time Lucy levy got off shift at 8 am, baby F's blood sugar was still too low. Baby F's blood sugar temporarily improved when the TNG bag that levy had administered was removed, but it dropped again when a new TNG bag was at around 4 pm and remained low until at 7 pm. Doctors took him off the bespoke TNG Feed bag he had been given. Feed bag sounds so horrible. Makes Reminds me of like a horse or something. I don't like that.
Speaker 1:I don't like that name. Wait, I'm sorry. I blanked out for a second. So is the second bag with the with the Insulin is Lucy on shift.
Speaker 2:No, she's not on shift, but they're alleging that she poisoned all the bags. It's got you. He had been given alongside the glucose treatment During this time. Levy was not on the ward having the night off. The prosecution reported she was attending a salsa class on her night off. There had been three total bespoke TNG bags prepared by the pharmacy for baby F. Baby F's blood glucose levels had returned to normal by 730. The prosecution reported when the medical team ran tests on baby S blood plasma level, his insulin levels were very high. On blood that was taken at 556 pm. Experts say baby F's low levels of the hormone C peptide were indicative of a synthetic insulin. According to the prosecution, quote that we say means that somebody gave child F synthetic insulin, somebody poisoned him, and quote According to mr Johnson, quote to give child F insulin someone would have had to access the locked fridge, use a needle and syringe To remove some insulin or, if they didn't do it that way, go to the cot side and inject the insulin directly into the infant through the intravenous system, intramuscular injection or, and this is what we say, happen via the TPN bag. And quote Okay, and if I didn't make it clear, child F lived.
Speaker 2:Child G Was a baby girl Born extremely premature, at just one pound two ounces. She is the most premature baby involved in this case. At birth in May 2015, her mother had complications and had a high-risk pregnancy with placental problems, so Baby G's mother was already hospitalized at another hospital Be due to her high-risk pregnancy. Baby G was born unexpectedly when baby G's mother was sitting on the hospital toilet at 24 weeks gestation and baby G just came out. Baby G suffered bleeding in her lungs and needed ventilation, 9 Blood Transfusion and has several episodes of sepsis or sceptic suspected septic episodes. She also experienced chronic lung disease, kidney and bowel problems, jaundice and high blood sugar. Her parents were not able to hold her for the first seven weeks of life. She also required antibiotics and I didn't write this down in my notes, but I recall they said that she could like fit into the palm of her father's hand. She required antibiotics and various treatments for these infections and issues. Her parents were warned she might not make it. However, baby G did improve and was considered clinically stable when she was transferred to the Countess of Chester Hospital in August at 37 weeks at around 4 pounds, she was being fed expressed breast milk. At that time Baby G was admitted to nursery two. She was considered to be doing well until the night shift of September 6th into the 7th, which is when the prosecution said Lucy Letby attempted to murder her.
Speaker 2:September 7th was to be a milestone for baby G her 100th day of life. However, shortly after 2 am on September 7th, baby G projectile vomited and collapsed. The prosecution said this was because Lucy Letby overfed baby G with milk and then injected air into her stomach, causing her to stop breathing and become critically sick. On that night Lucy Letby was not baby G's designated nurse. Another nurse was designated to baby G and another baby in nursery two. Lucy Letby was assigned to baby in nursery one and the nursery was not overcrowded that night, with only 7 total babies in the neonatal ICU. Baby G's designated nurse notes reporting normal vitals and that she had been feeding well prior to her collapse. At 2 am, baby G's nurse gave baby G her usual dose of 45 ml of expressed breast milk via her nasal gastric tube because she was asleep Soon afterward the nurse went on lunch.
Speaker 2:However, at 2.15, the shift leader and Lucy Letby were sitting together at the nurse's station opposite nursery two when the shift leader heard baby G vomit violently. The shift leader said the alarm sounded and her and Lucy Letby rushed to administer care. Baby G had projectile vomited. The two nurses sat baby G up but her heart and respiratory rate were dropping dramatically. So the shift leader and Lucy Letby started administering rescue breaths and called for the doctor. Lucy Letby's nursing notes revealed that after 45 ml of milk plus that note doesn't make sense, but they were aspirated 45 ml of milk plus air from baby G's stomach after baby G had vomited, which indicates that she had more than 45 ml of milk because she had already vomited and they removed additional 45 ml of milk. So while doctors were able to stabilize baby G, an hour later she deteriorated again and her heart rate crashed. She was moved to intensive care.
Speaker 2:During intubation a doctor noticed bloody fluid in baby G's trachea. At 6.05 am baby G collapsed a third time. During resuscitation attempts 100 ml of air was aspirated from the NG tube and when the tube was removed the registrar noticed thick secretions in baby G's mouth and a blood clot at the end of her breathing too. Just know all of these terms, registrar and stuff like that. That all just means doctor in UK language. Baby G was also showing signs of an infection. Baby G was immediately transferred to the more specialized Aero Park Hospital for over a week, where she improved remarkably. She was then returned to the Countess of Chester Hospital Right Five days after her return, baby G had improved enough that they were scheduled to give her some vaccinations On September 21, 2015,.
Speaker 2:Lucy Letby was baby G's designated nurse. At 9.15 am, baby G was fed 40 ml of express breast milk via nasal gastric tube by Lucy Letby. At 10.20 am, baby G projectile vomited twice and stopped breathing for several seconds. Baby G's blood oxygen levels also dropped to dangerous levels. Another nurse took over care from Lucy Letby at 11.30 am because Letby had two other babies in her care during that shift. At 3.30 pm, a doctor was called to check on baby G and the nurse left the baby in the care of the consultant doctor who erected privacy screens. The doctor later reported he could not recall if he had switched off baby G's monitor. The consultant doctor reported he wouldn't have left baby G's side if she had not been stable.
Speaker 2:Shortly after the attending doctor had left baby G, lucy Letby shouted for help. When another nurse approached Lucy and baby G, they noticed that baby G's monitor was off and that baby G was struggling for breath. When the other nurse approached, letby was giving baby G rescue breast with a ventilator. Baby G responded to the resuscitation efforts and recovered. A later MRI scan revealed severe neurological damage and in August 2016, it was revealed that baby G had suffered from irreversible brain damage.
Speaker 2:The prosecution said baby G had vomited because she had been given excessive milk and air. Casey Johnson told the court quote overfeeding doesn't happen by accident. End quote. The defense argued that baby G was quote a high risk baby, irrespective of anything to do with Lucy Letby. End quote. So that's where we're going to stop, because we've gotten through about half of the cases, and so I think we're going to pick up. While we've gotten through, there's six more cases to cover. We can also cover, like the arrest, all that stuff, the stuff that they found in Lucy Letby's house and all that other interesting stuff related to the case.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the babies of the seven you mentioned that you think, at the very least, she was negligent on.
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely the babies that. I think that are the I don't know how to phrase it most.
Speaker 1:I mean Most likely to have died due to something Lucy Letby did.
Speaker 2:Yeah, directly. I think that E and F are really suspicious. I think especially E is suspicious with the blood yeah, but I think that the fucking air embolism argument just doesn't fly with the symptoms of gastrointestinal hemorrhage, yeah, and so, so remind me again because I was a lot of information E they think died of an embolism air embolism, yes and F is the, f is the insulin Is the insulin. So I think that both of those could be. I think that Like murder or accidental Either, either okay, either yeah.
Speaker 2:What about G? G is hard to say because I think with the case of the first one they're saying the hundred days of death. Like I was saying, it's hard to place her in the room at the time because the nurse gave the baby the feed, left the room and then, well, the nurse gave the feed at two. We don't know exactly what time she left the room and then I thought you just said she left the room.
Speaker 1:Oh no, she gave the feeding at two.
Speaker 2:No, she gave the feed at two and then left to go on her shift. We don't know exactly how many minutes that took. And then the shift nurse and Lucy Leppie were standing at the nursing station. If the shift nurse was standing at the nursing station, which they were clear was within view of nursery two, she would have noticed. If Lucy Leppie, yeah had been in nursery two, because she was in full view of it and Lucy Leppie didn't have a baby, in nursery two.
Speaker 2:She only had a baby in nursery one, and so I think it would have been difficult for Lucy Leppie to access that baby within those few minutes without her noticing the second incident. It's possible. It's possible. Yeah, I have heard that or not heard that. I've read that it's difficult to say about the brain damage whether that would be caused by those incidents, whether they're happenstance, accident or intent. That is difficult to say for sure. Whether or not there's a direct connection, because gray matter injury to the brain is very common in babies with that level of prematurity. So that was one, though, that when I initially heard it it had me crying because I was so, yeah, it's really hard to hear that the level of disability that that baby was left with is devastating.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the parents too. That's going to be real hard on them.
Speaker 2:Whether it's intent or negligence. I mean, both are horrific. Yeah, I was going to say intent is worse, but I'm really not even sure. I mean, I guess it's worse in that you don't want to think that somebody's out there that wants to hurt, right? I mean, I'm not a little baby, although there are yeah, of course we know there are. But the fact of the matter of what happened to the baby remains, yeah, and it's awful. But I think that, definitely for the first incident, I think it's really tricky to place her in the room at that time For G, for G. Yeah. The second one, she did have the access, yeah, so yeah, it's possible, absolutely.
Speaker 1:I can see how people would be suspicious of her in all those cases, just because she always seems to be around when things happen. So either she is an extremely dedicated nurse to the point where she sticks her nose in other nurses business, or she's doing something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my question about with the G, with the second one, is if she didn't have the access for the first one and if the first one was happenstance, then that puts in question whether the second one was intent. Do you know what I'm saying?
Speaker 1:So if the first one was happenstance, the second one was probably also happenstance.
Speaker 2:I'm not saying it was for sure happenstance.
Speaker 1:Right, no, you're just saying.
Speaker 2:I'm saying that there's less of a because they're saying there's a connection between these incidents and I was saying if the first one wasn't intent and it wasn't connected to Lucy Letby, then the second one is more likely to be a case of, you know, whatever negligence or whatever Negligence or intent. Whatever?
Speaker 1:So let's say, let's say the first one was definitely an accident.
Speaker 2:I'm saying there's no, there's not a. There wouldn't be a pat. It breaks the pattern. You know what I mean. They're saying that she would go back and try and kill this baby over and over again if she didn't have the opportunity in the first place.
Speaker 1:So they're saying that she intended. The first one is what you're saying yeah, Although I mean she. Maybe they have that wrong, but she could have done. The second one because, yeah, that time she was the baby's designated nurse right, and she had the access.
Speaker 2:I'm saying she absolutely did have the patterns.
Speaker 1:It just doesn't establish the pattern that she would go back to, but yeah, the pattern isn't there.
Speaker 2:that they're saying is there is what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Okay, but yeah, no, you don't know. But she did absolutely have access the second time Right, and I mean I guess it could be that she saw that that had happened before. And she was like, if it happens again, then they'll just think. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So that's possible is what I'm saying. Well, yeah, what I'm definitely saying is that on the first one, it's difficult, right, not impossible right, but tricky.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Okay. So what are we supposed to be talking about? Oh, what did you watch? What you read? I know you didn't finish any reading, but yeah, no.
Speaker 2:You started some Still reading the Priory of the Orange Street. Did I talk about that last time, or did we not talk about it last time? I don't remember.
Speaker 1:You maybe haven't mentioned it, but I don't think you talked about it.
Speaker 2:It's a long book but yeah, it's very entertaining and yeah, I've been enjoying it.
Speaker 1:It's fantasy.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, it is fantasy. I've been reading a little bit more of the fantasy, not the romantic. Okay, I hate that genre name. I mean there's usually been romance elements in fantasy, and so it seems a little bit redundant.
Speaker 1:Well, I think the ones where the romance is heavy, because there are a lot of like smutty romance books that are fantasy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but it's like a whole scale right.
Speaker 1:Well, it is, but like I don't think, like for me. Okay, what about that?
Speaker 2:manticore porn one Manticore, what is it Manticore? What is that? What is that? One with the the manticore Was it a fucking manticore? Come farm thing. Okay, so I think, Like that could technically be classified as fantasy.
Speaker 1:I think this is more like the romantic. It's fantasy, but romance is the main point.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, fine, I guess I reluctantly.
Speaker 1:I mean, I could be wrong about that, but that's what I, that's what I think Like.
Speaker 2:Twilight.
Speaker 1:Sure, although I don't know anybody would actually call it romantic, but yeah, it's more along those lines I mean, vampires are fantasy yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean those vampires are fantasy. Vampires are horror, but those vampires are not horror. Yeah.
Speaker 1:They're not. I think. I think you're going too deep. They're just not.
Speaker 2:Sparkle, glitter. Vampires are not horror.
Speaker 1:In case I in case I keep this in, the one we were looking at is captive prince. I would call it fantasy. I'm not actually sure if it is fantasy Dovell side of toxic masculinity. What.
Speaker 2:I'm still bitching about Twilight.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, let's not. Let's not get the Twilight folks on the bad side, I guess Forget on their bad side.
Speaker 2:I can appreciate that Many of you like Twilight. I respect your wrong choices.
Speaker 1:Questionable. Questionable, yeah, okay. You can like things that are awful, that's, that's true, and not accept the awfulness, that's true. Like the breakfast club, I mean that has not aged well, it's awful, it hasn't aged well.
Speaker 2:But I still like it. I guess 10 things I hate about you hasn't exactly aged well. I thought you said it had when we talked about it and some things that have, like when she flashes the teacher, that didn't age super well. Yeah, I thought, and pose other things that didn't age well. That was the main thing, that. I was like cringe. Yeah, I was like that one goes super well today. Yeah, other than that, I think it wasn't too bad actually. Yeah, so maybe it has aged well.
Speaker 1:Better than some. Yeah, okay, so you orange of the priory. So how do we get on this romance fantasy thing? Does it have romance in it? It does, but it's very. It's not the main point.
Speaker 2:Not at all. Probably be more fancy? Not at all. Yeah, it's definitely no, because my point was that most fantasies have a romance element but, like in this story, it's not the main point. Yeah, and in fact there's. It's like a what's the word where switches between different POV is like ensemble character kind of situation and there's only romance between a few characters. Right, most of the other characters are not in a romantic situation.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, it minimizes it even more, which is appreciate and the romance is so far Knock on wood, right, because it could get annoying. Yeah, it's so far not not annoying me like the other book that I read recently which we were discussing, the popular one.
Speaker 1:The popular one, that popular dragony.
Speaker 2:Oh, the fourth wing, yes, the first one wasn't too bad. The second one, the romance aspect of it, was absolutely abysmal.
Speaker 1:So I remember. Yeah, so so far, so good so is it like a quest type of fantasy?
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's a, so there's. Yeah, there's a, there's a quest or there's there's kind of more than one quest at this point, but it seems that they're going to converge. So yeah, it's been pretty good.
Speaker 1:Good, what else are you reading? You said you were bringing the second one.
Speaker 2:Yes, I'm also reading a book called Sunshine Nails, which I may or may not have selected because I love doing my nails and I saw me on one of my nail boards to like a manicure that was inspired by the cover art of that book and I was like a nail polish book.
Speaker 2:I should read that book and it's about a Vietnamese own nail salon in Canada, I think in Vancouver, but I could be wrong about that, or somewhere in Canada, Canadian city somewhere in Canada and about all the different members of their family told from all of their different perspectives, and they're struggling against the gentrification of their neighborhood and a competing corporate, american nail salon that they have to compete against, right? So yeah, I'm about halfway through that book as well, and it's been cute, nice and also a little angerful about the gentrification, gentrification. Yeah, and corporate American capitalism and white supremacy and all those shitty things.
Speaker 1:Are you pretty far in both books?
Speaker 2:I'm about halfway through both of them. I think I'm a little bit more than halfway now in the priory of the Orange Tree. Both of them are audio books. The priory of the Orange Tree is like a 25 hour book, yeah.
Speaker 1:The author doesn't read slow enough that you could do it at one fifth or two, because some, some authors read real slow yeah.
Speaker 2:I would worry that I would miss some of the important stuff, because my brain processes information slowly.
Speaker 1:Well, I just mean because, like some, sometimes when you put it at one point five or two, it's normal speed yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because the author is so slow, it's true. No, I should have listened to that damn imaginary friend book, that speed. That imaginary friend by Stephen Woodham, what's your name? That one I was showing you the other day in Audible or not Audible, I can't. Barnes Noble, the book I was showing you the other day in Barnes Noble and I was like I was like this book doesn't look very long. For how long the audio book was.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, yeah yeah, and I was like no wonder this book got so tedious and boring. But no, I think. I think that this book is being read at fairly normal speed Sometimes. Sometimes it's a little bit on the slow side, but they also. The narrator speaks with an accent.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, that can make it and so I think if I sped it up too much I might miss some of what she's saying. But yeah, on some things I do want it to be faster because, yeah, like that imaginary friend book, because I'm like boring. But if I'm engaged with it then I'm like, oh, like I want to catch all those words and sometimes I'll even like if I'm thinking of something else, or I'll catch myself like thinking of something else, or I look at something else and I'm like, damn it, I missed the thing, and then I have to go back and listen to it again. So that's something that's inconvenient sometimes about audio books. But I guess the equivalency of that is when you're reading a book and you just keep getting distracted, distracted, yeah, so at least with the audiobook I can actually listen to it while I'm making dinner, washing dishes or doing things Right, whereas, yeah, so that's a lot easier for me than sometimes, than reading a physical paper book, right, and I do get interrupted, like by my kids curse you children and how?
Speaker 2:your needs. Cut into my reading time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, so yeah, um, let's see, I was supposed to read two books this week. I was supposed to read the Divorce Colony, yeah, For my history reading group. I didn't read it and wasn't able to go anyway, so we rescheduled it. So I still have time to read it. Is this another book club that you're in? It's my work reading group.
Speaker 1:So I get like, well, twice a year I get faculty development credit this school that I teach. I have to get do a certain number of faculty credits, but I like it because it's all the people that I hang out with at work when I can. I mean, they're at different campus now, but they're work friends. So we read one a month. I think we skip two months in the year, um, but this one is the Divorce Colony and it's about, I think, one of the Dakotas I think it's South Dakota in the late 19th century, when divorce was difficult to instigate, at least by women and a lot of times, particularly if it's just that you don't want to be married anymore. But it was easy in some of the western states like South Dakota, I'm assuming. That's why I don't know, I haven't read the book so I can't say that.
Speaker 2:Was that about like?
Speaker 1:the Pots of Land thing. You know, I don't know, I haven't read the book.
Speaker 2:Because there is a novel, Lone Woman, by Victor, yeah, I know who you're talking about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I read that last year. Yeah, I mean it could have stuff to do with it. I don't know. Like I said, I haven't read it. I just know divorce, women divorcing their husband, going to one of the Dakotas to divorce their husbands, yeah. And then the other one I was supposed to read was the Heaven and Earth Grocery Store by James McBride. I don't know, that was on Everybody's Must Read list last year. Yeah, and I had read one of his other books, the Good Lord Bird about John Brown. So I don't mind his writing, I just couldn't get into it. It's not the book's fault, I just didn't. Yeah, another reading slump I had. Yeah, I finished three books and apparently my brain is like no more, please, you didn't have the book's things for it, except for some smut.
Speaker 1:I did read three smut books.
Speaker 2:They're actually different.
Speaker 1:I'm not going to mention a couple of them.
Speaker 2:I'll mention them. No no no, but one of them. You should mention them and then take it out so that I'll know.
Speaker 1:No, it's embarrassing. It's more like porn, to be perfectly honest. I don't care. But there is a cute one. It's in a new series, but this one is called Inked by the Ithaca or something like that. You know what those are? Right, inked by the.
Speaker 2:Ithaca.
Speaker 1:The.
Speaker 2:Ithaca. That sounds like something I know.
Speaker 1:So they're called different things in different cultures. They're also called like a win-to-go. They're kind of related. In this particular instance they have the body of maybe a wolf or something like that and also the face, but the face is a skull.
Speaker 2:I know the W word, but aren't we supposed to not say that word? I?
Speaker 1:have no idea, I don't know anything about that?
Speaker 2:Because this thing is supposed to be a no-no. I think in the culture that they're from.
Speaker 1:I apologize, I know nothing about it.
Speaker 2:I remember that was a thing recently with a nail polish name that had that name in it. I ended up changing the name because saying the name can summon it.
Speaker 1:Well, it's supposed to be one of those things. Flesh pedestrian, there you go.
Speaker 2:Here's a better one yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, now I know, but this one, or this book, it's a girl, a woman, I should say goes to Russia where this like megastar tattooist, who is an Ithaca tattooist she won a contest or something and he accidentally imprints on her. So there's only one way to not imprint, since they don't know each other, and that's to go what? Well, if they do that then it just hardens their bond. So they're having a lot of like oh we shouldn't do this and like, but really wanting to kind, of stuff which is annoying, but it's just a fun, cute little book.
Speaker 1:But I didn't finish that one yet. I'm sure it'll have an HEA, which is what I need.
Speaker 2:I don't like sat ones. You're not going to tell me the names of the porn ones.
Speaker 1:No no.
Speaker 2:Pron. Katie likes to read pron Pron Pron, like with it. Oh, it's like an internet. Early internet speak, oh Name for porn.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, I do, yeah, I do.
Speaker 2:I find it entertaining when Katie turns red.
Speaker 1:I know you do Well, it's easy to read and it's entertaining and I don't have to think.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And you learn new things all the time. Like there are so many things out there. I had no idea. It's true, I never thought I was a prude.
Speaker 2:Very educational.
Speaker 1:It is very educational and I'm like I don't think that's for me, right. I'm like, oh, maybe, maybe, yeah, I could go to that one. Maybe, yeah, I had no idea about some of this stuff.
Speaker 2:See, this is important.
Speaker 1:It's educational.
Speaker 2:Very educational pron.
Speaker 1:Yeah, smut. Yay, I did buy some books, though. Okay, I bought Boy Parts by Eliza Clark. I've been seeing that all over BookTube and stuff like that. I think it's about it takes place in, I think, London. I want to say yeah, I want to say that I'm a girl woman who takes photos. She's like a photographer and I don't know. There's something gross. It's in the gross realm, I guess. I don't know if that's true, but that was my impression. Like gross and like Matassa Moshfigg Gross. I may take that out because I don't really know, but anyway it sounds entertaining, it looks good, yeah. And then I got Bride by Allie Hazelwood. She does the science romances, I think I saw that. Yeah, like love, the love hypothesis.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But this one is Vampires and Werewolves, okay, nice. So I didn't care for her science one. But that's nothing on her, that's just not. It's not her. It's one of those like it was pitched to me in a certain way and it wasn't what I expected, so I have to like wait a little while before I get back into it. Yeah, so nobody's pitched that one to me yet, so yeah, no false expectations.
Speaker 1:Right, but there's one I want and I can't find it anywhere in the States, only on Amazon. Well, I guess I shouldn't say anywhere in the States, anywhere within driving distance of us. Yeah For a book that to me sounds like it could be the new Mayfly. Oh, yeah, I want it. It's called how do we get our hands on this book? Amazon is the only way I could find it, which is fine, okay, I mean it's not like we're not supporting some evil billionaire, no matter where you live from Right, because we don't really have any independent bookstores here.
Speaker 1:Kill for Love by Laura Picklesmire and I love that last name, picklesmire- yeah. Picklesmire, but it's supposed to be like a female serial killer. Yeah, and people have been saying so, it's like a female driven modern-day American psycho. Okay, kill for Love exposes modern toxic plasticity with dark comedy and propulsive plot. Okay, so maybe not exactly like Mayfly, but it sounds like Sounds along the same vein. Yeah, so I'm really excited about that one because I really, I'd really like to read it.
Speaker 2:Let me put it on my Goods Reads wish list.
Speaker 1:Okay, let's see oh, things we've watched Did you watch anything?
Speaker 2:We just been watching what we do in the shadows.
Speaker 1:More Okay, so you didn't watch a whole lot.
Speaker 2:No, no, just the, just the same stuff. So yeah, I didn't watch a whole lot. I didn't, I don't know, I didn't do a whole lot. I guess I, you know, like I said, it cleaned some, although it doesn't look like I fucking cleaned some.
Speaker 1:Oh, I was on Instagram and I saw a real and it was like I don't know 30 seconds or something from a show from like the early 2000s. Yeah, I can't remember the name of it, but it was like a family comedy. Yeah, right, mom and dad, couple of kids and the mom just got done cleaning the kitchen like it's pristine, right, she takes out the garbage and the kids and the husband come in and like she's gone five seconds and is like destroyed.
Speaker 2:It's like she didn't do anything.
Speaker 1:It's true. Yeah, that reminded me. Very accurate, let's see. So I watched some 90s movies. I guess the talk of ten things I hate about you got me Jones in for some old movies, which one's Well is America Sweethearts 90s I guess that's early 2000s. It's early 2000s Close enough, close enough, yeah. So I watched America Sweethearts last night with John Cusack, catherine Zeta Jones, julia Roberts, billy Crystal, christopher Walken.
Speaker 2:Christopher Walken, Seth Green, you said Damn it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, seth Green, and for the first time figured out Billy.
Speaker 2:Crystal Hank Azari.
Speaker 1:Oh, hank Azari, yeah that. Billy Crystal co-wrote it and produced it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Which I didn't know before, although it kind of makes sense now, since he was in like when Harry Met Sally yeah, because they kind of have a tribute to that at the very beginning. Yeah, a little bit, but that was fun. I don't know if it totally held up Right, but it was cute.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I love John. Cusack I mean Right With the say anything with the jukebox, I would love it if a guy did that. Jay always gets a little bit jealous if I say that a boy looks like a puppy dog, because they know that's the way that I'm saying that a boy is cute.
Speaker 1:That's funny.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I mean, what can I say? John Cusack is cute he is.
Speaker 1:He's like. He and Tom Hanks are like the 80s, 90s, like romcom dudes. Yeah, yeah, that's true, tom.
Speaker 2:Hanks isn't so many romcoms, especially Mike.
Speaker 1:Ryan, I know and he's, yeah, and he's just like an every guy. He's not like super hot, but yeah, I love every romcom he's been in. Yeah, and I'm really not a big fan of romcoms, but they certainly had their heyday. They did, they did. I don't, I definitely don't like any of the good ones, you know it's you know it's a romcom.
Speaker 2:that's actually not very good that I made Jay watch because I was like, oh, this is good, and then it wasn't good and they made fun of me relentlessly. Relentlessly was a hitch with Will Smith.
Speaker 1:Oh.
Speaker 2:God, yeah, yeah, and it has that guy from King of Queens.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I was like oh, this is really funny and they were like this is really terrible. What, what was it?
Speaker 1:The dances, do the, do the toothpick or whatever.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, yeah, what was it Do they're I forget? But yeah, terrible dancing yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, which was purposeful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, yeah, so there was that she was into it.
Speaker 1:The terrible dance. Yeah yeah, it's kind of adorable when they can dance, just try. I mean that.
Speaker 2:I mean I don't want to dance, but like you talked about, like the dad bod and like dad charm earlier. Yeah, he's got that dad nerd charm.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's something about that. Not Will Smith, the King of Queens.
Speaker 1:Right, right, yeah, you don't have to be, you know, chris Evans or one of the Chris's to be hot Dad bods are hot too, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, will Smith is more conventionally handsome, but since he did the toxic masculinity thing, yeah, not cool. No, and who is? Who is Eva Longoria is? Is his love interest in that? I don't know, I don't remember Will Smith's love interest and then I don't remember who King of Queens, guys, love interests is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't remember either, I only saw rich looking blonde lady. Yeah, yeah, only soft ones yeah.
Speaker 2:And theaters. I miss Eva Longoria is cute though.
Speaker 1:Yeah, let's see. So I watched America Sweethearts, yeah. And then, oh, I also found on Paramount Plus. I found the first wives club, which I haven't seen in a while. That was a good movie, is that have? It's Diane Keaton, goldie Hawn, bette Midler yeah, as the three main ladies. Yeah, it's got Sarah Jessica Parker. Yeah, it's got two actors whose names I can never remember, but they are in fucking everything.
Speaker 2:Sandra.
Speaker 1:Bullock no, no and.
Speaker 2:Meg Ryan, no Damn it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was good. I mean again, I don't know if it held up. Real well, yeah, but I mean I don't think there's anything terribly awful. I just don't know that it would be the same movie today it went hit the same way.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because the issues that were happening in there it don't really exist now. Loudest cough, I mean. Maybe. I mean I don't know, do men leave their wives for younger women? No, I mean, I'm sure they still do, but it's probably not. It's probably not as common as it once was or seemed. Seemed to be will say seemed to be.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that. I think that rich asshole men are probably, I don't know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um, but oh, it has Maggie Smith in it. Maggie Smith is awesome. Yeah, um, but yeah, it was a cute movie. I like it. Yeah, oh, um, brosnan, pierce Brosnan, no, no, no, um Brosnan, pinchote, pinchote, I don't know, I don't remember his. I remember his. I like I don't know how to pronounce his name. Yeah, you're probably too young to remember, but there was a good show in the 80s and I think it went into the 90s. Like I'm so much younger. Well, I mean, it does matter because I was young, but I do remember it, that's true. And when it was on, you would have, you would have been an infant. Yeah, um, uh, it was perfect strangers.
Speaker 2:I had limited access to TV yeah, when I was a kid, because we didn't have a TV. I can only watch TV at my friend's house or my grandma's house, yeah.
Speaker 1:It was called perfect strangers and, um, it's about cousins. One cousin is American and I think he wants to be like a journalist or photojournalist or something, but his cousin comes and part of the gag is like his whole, like how he introduces himself and this is played by the Bronson actor guy yeah, which is that he is bulky Bartokomus from the island of Mipos. Yeah, yeah, but anyway, it's a cute little show. Yeah, um, again, I don't know if it holds up or not, but it's been like 15 years since I've seen an episode, um, but oh, I loved that show. It was really cute. Yeah, he would like, every time he saw a beautiful woman, he would like, like turn into a puddle on the floor and like be like a cat, like a literal puddle or, well, you know, like he'd get down on the floor like he just kind of dropped down to the floor and then like like kind of rub himself against like a cat, you know like it comes off as cute, not creepy.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean Kind of like a Pepe Le Pew kind of thing. Yeah yeah, the actor is really great, like he does accents and characters really well. It's a shame that he didn't find success after that.
Speaker 2:Oh well, that's a bummer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um, but yeah anyway, it has a great cast and even if I don't think it would be made the same way today, yeah. Um, I think it's still pretty good. Yeah, yeah, I mean, they had a great chemistry.
Speaker 2:That name, perfect Stranger, sounds familiar. Do they do like a remake of it or is there like another show that has that same name?
Speaker 1:that I could be. Those are possible, but I'm pretty sure I've talked about it before. Maybe that's why, yeah, yeah, um, because I loved that show. Yeah, I loved that show. I think about it all the time, but yeah, so I watched that. I'm thinking I got into Hulu for the first time in like weeks, maybe months, and I saw on there the 10 things I hate about you. I'm sure that's where you probably watched it, right? They also clueless. So I really want to rewatch Shakespeare. Yeah, I know that those are the two like best. Yeah, interpretations of uh no, that's not Shakespeare, not Shakespeare, it's a Austin Jane Austen. Yeah, those are the two best, I think. Adaptations of classics yeah, that's what I'm going with yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, cause. Oh, and that also is a perfect cast Like I can't think of any other people, it's true, who would make that cast good? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Alicia. Silverstone really embodies like Emma's character yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I haven't seen the new Emma.
Speaker 1:I haven't either. I'm not sure I want to. Oh yeah, why is that? I don't know, I just does it. So here's the thing. I think if you're gonna adapt something, it should be fairly accurate. Yeah Right, unless you're going to make it very different, like clueless, yeah Right.
Speaker 1:If you make it like clueless, you can tell what the source material is but it doesn't detract from it, right? Whereas like, if you're gonna make a period piece, fucking make a period piece, you know, don't, don't Kind of half ass it, don't half ass it and don't take liberties with it. Like I'm worried. I can't say anything because I, again, I have not watched this Emma. For all I know. It could be even more accurate than the Gwyneth Paltrow one. Again, I'm not sure how great Gwyneth Paltrow is. I read Emma once, so I can't really say how great the adaptations are, but it to me it the way the trailers weren't stuff. It comes off as like the new persuasion with Dakota Johnson or whatever you know, which was bullshit, yeah.
Speaker 2:I don't think I've seen that either. Yeah, I haven't seen any of the new stuff. Yeah, don't.
Speaker 1:Don't Not, if you like, persuasion. Don't do it, it won't ruin your life. No, it won't ruin your life, it'll ruin your love.
Speaker 2:That's convincing, okay.
Speaker 1:No, I just. I guess I have very strict expectations, for Nothing wrong with that. High expectations, high standards, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, okay, so fuck the new Emma.
Speaker 1:Maybe. Again, I haven't seen it, I'm only going by what the trailer says. Maybe I will watch it. We're rereading Austin yes, right, yes. So maybe we'll.
Speaker 2:Maybe we can watch a corresponding adaptation after we read yeah, it's.
Speaker 1:Yeah, has there even been an adaptation of North Hanger Abbey, which we're doing now?
Speaker 2:There has to be some adaptation of it.
Speaker 1:Maybe that's kind of the dead book.
Speaker 2:All of.
Speaker 1:Jane.
Speaker 2:Austen yeah.
Speaker 1:So but yeah. So maybe we'll do that one. We'll see how well it holds up to Emma. I'm sure everybody's just riveted and wants to hear all about it.
Speaker 2:I mean, I'm sure somebody out there cares. Yeah, yeah, lots of people like Jane Austen.
Speaker 1:That's true, that's true. We talk a lot of not true crime for being a true crime, but I guess, right, I?
Speaker 2:mean the Jane Austen stuff is probably about as basic white bitches, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Sorry guys, Let me just grab my pumpkin spice latte and my eat, pray love sign.
Speaker 1:I guess this is the place where we talk about the book that we're going to, yes, read Unmask Alice by Eric Emerson.
Speaker 2:If I can like, make it come to me.
Speaker 1:We are unprepared today. Yeah, so the full title is Unmask Alice, lsd, satanic Panic and the Imposter Behind the World's Most Notorious Diaries by Eric Emerson.
Speaker 2:So you should read it. We will definitely also read it.
Speaker 1:Yes, we are going to have it done by Saturday, although you guys don't need to know that. Yes, that's just our personal goal. Yeah, our, our I keep wanting to say our reading timeline.
Speaker 2:I mean, it is a reading timeline, but our recording when is the episode going to air and which?
Speaker 1:okay. So every time I say I'm going to write this down, yeah, and I'm going to keep it where I can see it. All the time I hear you, you're preaching to the, to the choir. Okay, so this episode, which is episode 10, is going to be out on February 28th, episode 11 will be out March 13th and episode 12 will be out March 27th.
Speaker 2:So sorry about all that dead baby bummer stuff. Yeah, it hurt me more than it hurts you. Yeah.
Speaker 1:In case we didn't say it at the beginning, because we recorded that the Lucy let the stuff like two months ago. Yeah, we're now in February. Yeah, if we didn't say that, then it's two episodes. Rachel's doing another two parter.
Speaker 2:Yeah and yeah. It's causing a lot of stress and physical and mental pain, so I hope you enjoy.
Speaker 1:Enjoy Rachel's hot take.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:That too, yeah, and then episode 12 will be mine.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I don't know what. I don't know what it's going to be Maybe a serial killer who may not have actually been a serial killer. Maybe a cult, okay, or maybe I might just watch a like couple of 2020s and date lines and, just yeah, decide from one of those. We'll see how things go in terms of working. Whatever it, is.
Speaker 2:It's going to be good, so tune in. I hope so For episode 12. Yeah, maybe something, not so long, because then we're going to talk about the book and it's going to be super long.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, that was our mistake.
Speaker 2:With which one did we do that on?
Speaker 1:We do on that one On mine, the alien queen, one, the girly chew, wasn't it that one? I was that was eight.
Speaker 2:I think you love Tylenol part two. No, because we talked about. We talked about the.
Speaker 1:Oh, maybe it was. Yeah, yeah, the camera guy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it was already super long.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the girly chew one was the longest.
Speaker 2:Yeah, was it yeah?
Speaker 1:Two and a half, I think, didn't seem that long, but yeah, I guess, so Sorry about that, guys. We don't really know how long these things are until I edit them, we just talk until we're done, and then I export it to an mp3 and then it tells me how long it is, unless you all can tell me if any of you are garage band people and you can tell me how to figure that out.
Speaker 2:And I mean, let us know, do you like us talking For an indefinite amount of time?
Speaker 1:Or should we just shut up? Or just, if we're going to talk, stick to true crime.
Speaker 2:Here's the thing that I was mentioning to Katie the other day is that we do the true crime first. So if you don't want to hear us talk about random bullshit, you can always just turn us off at that point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I always like the podcast where they talk.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because that satisfies my nosiness. Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, I have a. I'm by nature a snoop.
Speaker 2:Well, and I like that. It, you know, lightens up the intensity.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that too Of you know getting the true crime. Yeah, yeah, Okay. So anyway, episode 12, March 27th, unmask Alice. We're also reading the diary which was called Go.
Speaker 2:Ask Alice by.
Speaker 1:Anonymous, which isn't really anonymous but whatever, yeah, it'll say anonymous if you buy the book. Yeah, so we're doing those two things. Yes, we will have the second part of Lucy. Let Be stuff in the next episode, episode 11. Yep, and some sort of surprise for episode 12. Yep.
Speaker 2:All right, well, we'll let you know.
Speaker 1:I will let you know in episode 11. Maybe, probably Maybe.
Speaker 2:We'll see All right, so check out our social media.
Speaker 1:Yes, which will be in the show notes. The Instagram yes.
Speaker 2:We are on the Facebook. We have an email if you want to scream with the void at us about our incompetence or, if you want, to let us know what a great job you think we're doing yeah, Follow, like, subscribe leave us a review. Leave us a review, hopefully a good review, we hope.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Um stars. Stars are nice yeah.
Speaker 2:That's a nice thing. Yeah, and yeah, thanks for listening.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you. Talk to you next time, bye, bye.