In this episode, Kiki talks about the Goyenas murders and Rachel brings us the disappearance of Kit Mora. We also discuss the book "Unmask Alice: LSD, Satanic Panic, and the Imposter Behind the World's Most Notorious Diaries" by Rick Emerson (and "Go Ask Alice").
Our next book is "Hell's Half Acre: The Untold Story of the Benders, a Serial Killer Family on the American Frontier" by Susan Jonusas, which we will discuss in episode 16.
Sources:
Kit Mora:
Washington State Patrol - https://www.wsp.wa.gov/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Esmeralda-Kit-Mora.pdf
NBC King 5 News - https://www.king5.com/article/news/community/facing-race/kit-mora-missing/281-ebbbc4a7-6563-41b4-b00b-d06fe64bd907
Goyenas:
ABC 20/20 Season 45 Episode 20 - "House of Cards"
Socials:
Instagram: Details Are Sketchy - @details.are.sketchy
Facebook: Details Are Sketchy - @details.are.sketchy.2023
Instagram: Kiki - @kikileona84
Instagram: Rachel - @eeniemanimeenienailz
Email: details.are.sketchy.pod@gmail.com
In this episode, Kiki talks about the Goyenas murders and Rachel brings us the disappearance of Kit Mora. We also discuss the book "Unmask Alice: LSD, Satanic Panic, and the Imposter Behind the World's Most Notorious Diaries" by Rick Emerson (and "Go Ask Alice").
Our next book is "Hell's Half Acre: The Untold Story of the Benders, a Serial Killer Family on the American Frontier" by Susan Jonusas, which we will discuss in episode 16.
Sources:
Kit Mora:
Washington State Patrol - https://www.wsp.wa.gov/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Esmeralda-Kit-Mora.pdf
NBC King 5 News - https://www.king5.com/article/news/community/facing-race/kit-mora-missing/281-ebbbc4a7-6563-41b4-b00b-d06fe64bd907
Goyenas:
ABC 20/20 Season 45 Episode 20 - "House of Cards"
Socials:
Instagram: Details Are Sketchy - @details.are.sketchy
Facebook: Details Are Sketchy - @details.are.sketchy.2023
Instagram: Kiki - @kikileona84
Instagram: Rachel - @eeniemanimeenienailz
Email: details.are.sketchy.pod@gmail.com
I'm Kiki and I'm Rachel, and this is. Details are Sketchy a true crime podcast and we are re-recording our episode 12 because we had microphone.
Speaker 2:issues you know it's funny. I saw somebody post on Instagram about this very kind of thing happening oh yeah, they're going to re-record and edit their podcast yeah like two days, and I was saying like sorry, like we've had to re-record in the past yeah here, we are again.
Speaker 1:Here we are again. I don't know what happened. I pressed a button and it all went to hell. So can we blame it on getting old?
Speaker 2:press a button ever, even if it's like a really big squishy looking button.
Speaker 1:Okay, so, rachel, are we doing a missing person?
Speaker 2:Oh shit, I have to do my missing person again. I am so unprepared.
Speaker 1:It's okay, we can miss this one, did I?
Speaker 2:like fucking delete my things for my missing person, I don't know. I hope not, because I wouldn't have done that right, because we need the sources for that right. Hang on, let me scroll, okay, my.
Speaker 1:I have 315 tabs open shit, I thought I was bad at 118. Yeah see, we got totally thrown off. We thought we were just going to discuss the book today now more than one of them about camels while I was sitting here hating technology and wanting everyone to die, r Rachel was over there looking at camels Trying to convince her spouse to get one as a pet. Is that it?
Speaker 2:Well, I mean not seriously, we both know that. But sometimes we play a game where I ask them for some kind of outrageous pet and they agree to it. Of course, both of us knowing that this will never happen.
Speaker 1:Right, hey, camels are cute.
Speaker 2:They are very cute.
Speaker 1:If we had all the money in the world, we could have an animal sanctuary Right Yep.
Speaker 2:Well, apparently, Jay and I are going to have a farm comprised of only miniature versions of animals, like those miniature cows, miniature donkeys lacunas which are apparently I just found out the smallest type of cameloid and miniature horses, pygmy goats how cute are those? Right, we'll have all the minis oh did you find your missing person?
Speaker 1:Oh?
Speaker 2:well now, I haven't been looking because I've been talking about miniature animals. You were talking. I know, okay, hang on. Okay, let hang on. Okay, let me scroll up. I also showed my daughter that dog book and now I have like a bunch of tabs open about all the dogs that she wants. They're all fluffers.
Speaker 1:Icelandic.
Speaker 2:Sheepdog, papillon, american Eskimo, pomeranian, samoyed. Okay, scrolling up even more. Okay, wait, yes. I do have them. I'm pretty sure this is yes, okay, so my missing person is Kit Mora. They are a non-binary Indigenous person. They went missing in 2022, and they were 16 at the time, so they would be almost 18 now. They've been missing since April and they weigh around 190 pounds. They have brown eyes, black hair and if you know anything about them, we're prompted to contact the OMAC police department.
Speaker 1:And you'll give that information.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yes, I'll give you that information later, and also some more information about them and the circumstances under which they went missing. Awesome.
Speaker 1:I mean awesome that you'll do that.
Speaker 2:Yes, obviously not awesome that they're missing.
Speaker 1:No, that sucks, to say the least. Okay, so we are looking at the Guyanis' murders. Okay, so we are looking at the Guyanis' murders. This case took two years to solve. It spans thousands of miles in four states and there got a call from dispatch to respond to Frieden Street. I think that's how you pronounce it, it's F-R-I-D-E-N. So when he gets there, he enters the home and he sees there's an old oriental style rug with a lot of red on it, which he believes is blood. He then sees an older woman on the floor on the rug, technically next to a phone that appears to have blood on it. The woman, later to be identified as 74-year-old Vonda Guyana, is still alive. She's been stabbed multiple times and her throat has been slit. However, she is still able to talk.
Speaker 1:She's actually the one who called 911, and when Officer Schraft asked if anyone else was in the home, she told him that her daughter was in the bedroom. He made his way to the bedroom and discovered the second victim, 35-year-old Angelique Goyena, clearly deceased, covered in blood and lying naked face down on the floor. He also saw that the blood and, heartbreakingly, her childhood teddy bear were soaked in blood. I did actually, or on 2020, they actually show you the image of the soaked teddy bear. And it's soaked, it looks like it was in the bathtub or something. Detective Walter Whiteside, who arrived shortly after Schraft, said that the bedroom looked like something out of the movies that you rarely see in scenes because it was just so gruesome. Angelique had been stabbed at least 37 times. Fonda was still alive as EMTs worked on her, but Whiteside knew that he wasn't going to survive, so he stepped outside to call a homicide detective who told him that he needs to do a dying declaration. So a dying declaration is a statement made by a person whose death is believed to be certain or impending. Made by a person whose death is believed to be certain or impending. It can be used in court, but the victim has to first believe they're dying and then ultimately die. It is the exception to the right. A defendant has to confront their accuser in court, basically because the last breath of the accuser is presumed to be the truth. Okay, before I go any further, I'm going to talk a little about Angelique and Vonda and the months leading to their deaths.
Speaker 1:So Angelique, called Angel by her family, was the baby by 16 years. She loved to read fantasy and dressing up in Elizabethan-style clothing. She also liked to write poems and stories. She and her best friend actually wrote stories together and she also kept diaries. She was Vonda's caretaker, because Vonda had dementia as well as heart problems. She and her mother were very close and they did everything together. They were both very creative and both were into Wicca and tarot. I bring those up because it becomes important later. Angel wanted to get married and have a family. She talked about it often, she did date and most of the men she met were online. This is early 2000s, so it was early online dating. No Tinder or any of those fun things. No Tinder or any of those fun things. In 2006, she met David Hoshaw, an electrical designer, and I have no idea what an electrical designer is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think we asked that last time as well. Yeah, and then neither of us bothered to look it up.
Speaker 1:Maybe they design like I don't know the pathway of electrical wires, Maybe Sure, why not?
Speaker 2:We'll go with that. If anybody knows, we have our imaginations.
Speaker 1:So he was an electrical designer, a scoutmaster and a father of two. Within months she met his sons and his ex-wife, naomi Hoshaw. And then David also proposes very quickly and moves in with Angel and Vonda. So if we skip ahead back to June 2007, detective Whiteside I have whitehead here, I believe it was Whiteside, I misspelled Is getting Vonda's dying declaration. She tells him that the person who killed her and her daughter is Walter Lucas. Now the police obviously look for evidence. There's no sign of forced entry, nothing had been stolen and there was no murder weapon. All the DNA and fingerprints belong to Vonda, angel, her live-in fiance and other family members. So this means the only clue they have is the name Walter Lucas.
Speaker 2:Okay, hang on, I did Google, it says. Electrical designers create and design electrical systems, turning to their expertise on how electricity works to create wiring and power distribution diagrams that fit in individual projects' needs. They examine the electrical needs of new buildings to best supply it.
Speaker 1:Interesting Sounds hard it does Um.
Speaker 2:Okay, sounds mathy. Yes, sounds mathy.
Speaker 1:Yes, very mathy. Turns out Walter isn't hard to find. He is Vonda's former son-in-law. He was on good terms with the family, so much so he actually did keep in touch with them and according to his ex-wife, everyone loved him. Not only does he seem unlikely to be the murderer, but he was also 200 miles away that night and he tells the detectives that Vonda had Alzheimer's. He also explains his DNA away. He says it was in the house because he was there the week before. So his alibi ultimately checks out and they have to cross him off the suspect list.
Speaker 1:Since they know there wasn't a break-in, they have to figure out who had access to the house. The only people with keys are the victims and the immediate family members, as well as the fiancé, david. But everyone who has keys also have alibis. So the family all confirmed that David was hours away at a Boy Scout week-long camp. He's there with his 12-year-old son and other parents see him there at 11 pm that Friday night and then he's there again at the camp at 6 30 am for breakfast. Once all that is over, he drives back to Norfolk that afternoon.
Speaker 1:They still have nothing a month later, but then they get a letter from the killer, and it's postmarked from Chicago. The note says that he met Angel at the beach a few days before he killed her. She had told him she wanted to have a fling before she got married. They check her diary and she does mention going to the beach with her mom and there are other references that were consistent with the habits of the victims, which indicates that he was actually there. He wrote that Angel had second thoughts about the fling and at 12 30 am he got his knife and killed them. The police look at the wording the killer used. He used terms like mother instead of mother and biatch instead of bitch, in a terrible attempt to make him seem like he's black. Angel was known to have dated both black and white men, so it did confuse the issue a little and had to be investigated. But the police did ultimately see through that terrible attempt at disguise, and terribly racist one as well. If nothing else, the letter showed that the killer was reveling in the murders and was unconcerned, and also that he clearly knew the victims very well.
Speaker 1:They then receive a second letter. This one is postmarked from Gaylord, michigan. It is written in the same style as the first one and in it the killers confess to killing someone else, possibly in the Midwest, and the police start looking into unsolved murders in the region. Both envelopes and letters were forensically checked but there was no DNA found. It's clear at this point that detectives aren't going to solve this forensically. They have no DNA, no fingerprints, there's no sign of forced entry, etc.
Speaker 1:However, the lack of physical evidence actually gives them a couple of clues. First, they know the murders were planned. Second, it's likely someone Angel and Fonda know or knew. But if you remember, their friends, family and the fiancé have been ruled out as suspects. So they're kind of at a dead end. It's at this point that the prosecutor, phil Evans, brings in a new detective, rick Melbin. Melbin is considered, at least by Evans, as the best of the best and they decide to go back to square one. As you all probably know, when you're solving a murder you have to look at the victims. In this case they look at Angel Infanta's interest in Wicca. A quick definition in case you don't know it is a pagan nature-based religion. It, like all belief systems, is a lot more complicated than that and practiced differently by different people, but the bare bones of it is that definition I was just thinking about what our friends in the unmasked alice group would think about this group the wicca group yeah, the
Speaker 1:oh, you mean the satanic panic part? Satanic panic people? They'd be flipping out their shit, they would lose their shit. Okay, angel and vonda associated with a group of wiccans that operated out of a bookstore called mystic moon. The police decide to go there and look into it. Uh, then the detective I think it was unclear got a call from a man who wants to talk to him about the goianus's case. He told them that he belonged to that mystic moon group and that some of them practiced vampirism, and he said he did identify as a vampire. He goes in to talk to them and produces an ethame, which is a ceremonial blade that is the main tool used in Wiccan rituals. This man said the blade was used by someone else to commit the murders. I know they don't go into detail about how he got wound up with the supposed murder weapon. Yeah, at which point I think last time I said do better 2020. Give us the context Right. We love you more than Dateline. Well, I love you more than Dateline.
Speaker 1:I don't know about Rachel. So the knife was the murder weapon. No, we're, I'm getting to that Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because I was like I thought it wasn't.
Speaker 1:No, he's just saying it's the murder weapon. And last time you had questioned, how would he have gotten a hold of it, since he said someone else had. Yeah, yeah exactly.
Speaker 2:So this the someone else is the alleged vampire he's also an alleged vampire. Oh, he's also okay. Do they do some vampire tests on him? Apparently not one episode of x-files I don't think so.
Speaker 1:I don't. 2020, didn't tell us yeah, 2020, shame on you.
Speaker 2:They should have put the vampirism to the test they should have. Like what kind of vampire are you? Do you burn up in the sun? Do you glitter? Like what kind of vampire powers Do you turn into a bat, a wolf, mist?
Speaker 1:Okay, now, more than six months after the murders, the police think they might now have the murder weapon. And they get it tested. Uh, there was no dna, no trace of blood and it turns out that it couldn't have made the wounds. So they eliminate mr vampire or faux vampire as a suspect. Okay, at this point. They followed dozens of leads and all were dead ends. The only real clues they have are those two letters. They thought maybe it could be a serial killer who wrote them, so they sent them to the FBI to be analyzed and the FBI determined that it is not a serial killer. So that obviously narrows down the suspect list quite a bit. But again, everyone close to the victims have been eliminated. However, detective melbourne thinks that the fiance, david hoshaw, should be looked at again, and I would think all of us who have watched enough of these shows would be like no shit, sherlock.
Speaker 2:But I think I said something about like of course he's suspicious because he's a boy scout.
Speaker 1:I was listening to some of our past episodes and I was like man, I do hate a whole lot of people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think we both do. That's probably why our listener base is so small. My dad was a boy scout, so it's not like this is coming out of nowhere and I'm just like fuck you boy scouts for no reason. Okay, there's reasons okay.
Speaker 1:So when the forensic investigators were going through the house they found a computer. The police got a warrant to search it and and the forensic IT folks, I'm assuming figure out that just a few days before the murder David changed the password to FORAMANDA in the numerical way, not the FOUR I don't know if that matters, but anyway that's his password way. That's his password. Obviously the police want to know who amanda is. They find out in early 2007 that david went back onto some dating sites because he's a stellar guy. It's there that he connects with amanda. Turns out david wasn't in the midwest for business but to be with another woman. So that begs the question what else is he lying about? Could he be the killer?
Speaker 2:All the things.
Speaker 1:All the things, but he did have a credible alibi. He was 80 miles away at Boy Scout camp. So the police go back to his interview. I hadn't mentioned this, but they had an interview with him when they informed him of the deaths. Yeah, something he said or didn't say piqued their interest. For example, he never asked the homicide detectives why they needed to talk to him, which I think we have both said before. Why is that weird?
Speaker 2:Yeah, because yeah, and I wanted to know if he knew at that point like that, if he had been told that something happened to them or if they were just like we need to talk to you.
Speaker 1:Right, like if they introduced themselves as homicide detectives or something. Yeah, because if you know that, like yeah, if they introduced themselves as homicide detectives or whatever, then you would already know that it's about a homicide, right?
Speaker 2:um, yeah, and also I mean, I don't know about if somebody happens to one of my loved ones, that I already know that I'm probably going to be a suspect, like everybody, right?
Speaker 1:you're an idiot. If you don't know that you're a suspect, you clearly need to start watching some true crime. But also, like I was saying, I don't ever question authority. I wish I did, but I didn't. If, like, police officers asked me to come into the interview room, I would answer their questions, but I wouldn't ask any of mine. Yeah, ever. Even if I wanted to, even if I really really wanted to, I wouldn't. I don't know why that is, but I know I wouldn't. Right.
Speaker 2:Okay. So anyway, I would ask if I was under arrest and I would ask for a lawyer.
Speaker 1:He also told them to look at his easy pass and tried to give them a lot of other information, and apparently that's not a good thing. Matt Murphy said in the 2020 episode kind of the obvious, which is that a person who provides a lot of information, again police are going to think they're either totally innocent or totally guilty. I mean, those are the only options, but I think it speaks to the fact that they're going to be suspicious either way. That's why they're police officers. Anyway, that got Melvin and Evan's attention.
Speaker 1:They continue to look at David and find that he is a very disturbing past. They found that he was involved with at least six women and he had been married three times prior to his engagement with Angel. He met his first wife, naomi, who Angel met and is the mother of the two kids, when they were 16. She didn't like him at first, but he gave her a lot of attention, which made her feel special. They married and had two kids. The marriage obviously didn't last. David had become abusive. He even strangled her while she was pregnant with their second child. Fuck yeah.
Speaker 2:I think I remember this, sorry yeah.
Speaker 1:Go on. Okay. So she also found some really gross letters. He wrote to a 12-year-old and she reported the Like reported the sexy sex. That was the implication.
Speaker 1:She reported the domestic why, is he not in jail already? Yeah, well, I'm getting there, okay. She reported the domestic abuse to the air force, and the girl and her parents also cooperated with them. He pled guilty to both uh, indecent acts and assault on the 12-year-old. The Air Force chose not to criminally prosecute him in a court-martial, which would have put him in prison. No shit, sherlock, that's exactly where he should be.
Speaker 2:So he was in the Air Force, so they protect him basically. Yeah, apparently.
Speaker 1:That's disgusting, it is gross, it is gross.
Speaker 2:They're like it's okay if you're a fucking pedophile and you should be a registered sex offender. Yeah, Slap on the wrist or nothing, pretty much.
Speaker 1:Nothing. I hope they take it more seriously now. That was back in the 90s, when people were even bigger assholes than they are now.
Speaker 2:Anyway, I don't know I was looking at a thing this is not related to this thing, but it was about women's representation in film and like Oscar-winning films and there was more representation in like best picture Oscar-winning films in the 90s than there is now and that was kind of depressing. Yeah, that is a depressing thought, including our latest Oscar winner. Whatever, oppenheimer doesn't pass the Bechdel test.
Speaker 1:No, so, yeah, well, thanks for that downer extra downer, you're welcome. Okay, that downer extra downer, you're welcome, okay. So, um, okay, so they choose not to criminally prosecute him. Instead, they immediately discharged him with an other than honorable discharge. Naomi filed for divorce.
Speaker 1:He follows his ex-wife to virginia to be close to his kids and he begins dating online. He met and married his second wife, but that ended after just a short time and then he met his third wife, allison, online. She said he showered her with lots of attention, which she was not used to, and she was taken with the fact that he found her attractive, despite the fact that she was severely overweight. Those were her words. So Allison told the police about an indecent incident she had with David, so she'd been having dizziness and migraines. Same. He asked her if there was anything he could do to help. Apparently they had a massage roller which he used on her back. Apparently he was going faster and faster and faster and at some point he raised the roller and hit her on the back of the head with it. He apologized, saying it slipped out of his hands. Bullshit, yep. She accepted the apology, but she had some doubt about it being an accident. Get the fuck out Soon after his divorce from his third wife she did.
Speaker 1:David then met Angel online and, just like with all the other women, he told her all the right things. Her siblings didn't like him. They thought something was off, and they certainly didn't like the fact that he moved into the house with Angel and Vonda. They felt like he was a bum. But Vonda allowed it because she didn't want angel to leave. So I wonder if that means that even though he had a really good job, because they were with the navy, they yeah where he worked. He supposedly worked for a company that worked with the navy which is important because think about the midwest you would think he would contribute to the household.
Speaker 2:But I guess if he was a bum he wasn't a good income yeah, yeah electrical designer, which apparently google tells me is a kind of engineer yeah, they make a ton of money I'm sure, uh, but why contribute when you can mooch off of other people?
Speaker 1:yeah, but vonda allowed it because she didn't want Angel to leave. Right, Not only was Angel her baby and her good friend, but also her caretaker. Angel's diary entries changed after David moves in. They indicate that he was not what he appeared to be. She told her sister that he would have a look on his face like he was just absolutely disgusted with her. He was pressuring her to put Vonda in a managed care facility. He was moody and grumpy. He wouldn't participate in the wedding preparations. So at first I was like I'm pretty sure that's common. At least I'm told.
Speaker 2:It depends on the attitude about it.
Speaker 1:I would think no, that was just my initial thought. Let me get to the second sentence. Okay, yeah go and then they said she would ask who he wanted to invite and he would kind of blow it off.
Speaker 1:That is worrisome. Yeah, and of course he had that job. I put not actually a job so, oh, I get it. I'm not sure that I I think he maybe had the job, but he was lying about where the job was right. So he was in the navy or not in in the Navy. I'm sorry, he worked for a company that worked for the Navy. He told Angel that he was working in the Midwest, which, if you think about it, doesn't make sense, because why would the Navy be in the Midwest? But he did that and he was gone a lot and he didn't call much. So if we cut to after the murders and david, by all accounts, was acting strange he would show up at the house and be let in by the officers, which apparently was a bit of a no-no. I guess you're not supposed to do that. Why did they do it? I have no idea, god. Um, he didn't seem shocked about the homicides, yeah, or to be grieving, of course. See the thing about like they don't seem to be grieving.
Speaker 2:That also bothers me because everybody grieves differently, you know yeah, yeah, I, I I do agree with that, but like to an extent, like if they're completely like woo partying, yeah, well, yeah well, although also that could also be grief.
Speaker 1:I mean, you're just trying to not deal with it, that's true, you know that's true, just like some people make jokes at funerals or whatever. You know they, they just that's how they deal well, say some things.
Speaker 2:maybe are yellow flags sure like, not like. This is definitely not grief, but maybe this is a less common way that people grieve, like partying and spending lots of money, like if you inherit money, some people you know murder their person.
Speaker 1:Well, sure.
Speaker 2:And they go and spend all their inheritance Sure. That might be a bit of a flag, it might be, but it also could be. Yeah.
Speaker 1:See, I guess that's why I would make a terrible detective, because I would just be like how do you know, Sure.
Speaker 2:You don't know definitively Exactly. That's why I'm saying it's a yellow flag.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 2:At least yeah.
Speaker 1:Like let's maybe keep an eye out for other. It's not common, it's not common, like if that's attached to other things, yeah, Because see, when people say things like that, I always think about like well, what if I, somebody I love, God forbid, got murdered, right, how would I be perceived? And they say all of these things and I'm like dude, I would totally be a suspect.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would have nothing to do with it. A suspect? Yeah, I would have nothing to do with it. I mean, obviously I would be a suspect, but I mean like they would definitely focus on me because I don't think I'd grieve the way they would expect.
Speaker 2:I mean I don't think I'd go out and party, but you know, I I well, no matter what, it seems like they will find a way for the person's reaction to be suspicious. They were too emotional, they weren't emotional enough.
Speaker 1:Too much information, not enough information. Too good of an alibi, not good enough of an alibi. Exactly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's true, because I would be the opposite. I would probably be extremely emotional and then they would be like this is a red flag, this is too much emotion. But that's just how I am. Yeah, and I cry almost any time like I experience emotions, because, like when, whenever I experience emotions, they're very strong, like right now, I'm like like neutral, I'm good. Whenever the emotions get unleashed, they're really turbulent. Yeah, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like Vulcan emotions. Yeah, I have to go through like Kulinar or something and purge my emotions, yeah, yeah. So whenever like and it can be I can be mad yeah, I could be sad, I could be be I can be mad. Yeah, I could be sad, I could be, you know, happy and like, yeah, like nine times out of 10, it comes out as me crying yeah.
Speaker 2:Which is ridiculous and so inconvenient. Yeah, and it's. It's not good for life because people don't like it. People don't like it when you cry, and yeah, and like they think that you're being manipulative or whatever the fuck. I'm like, no, I'm just feeling emotion right now. Yeah, and it's just, it's always so sharp, right and extreme. Yeah, like, and that's just how I experience emotion.
Speaker 1:If I have big emotions, I'm usually tired.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:That's usually it, unless I'm by myself or if I'm annoyed, as you experienced for the half hour before we started recording. Annoyed is pretty much the only emotion I show publicly. Yeah, I don't like that about myself, but that is what it is, okay. So, anyway, now that we have decided that I don't know what we just decided, but cut to after the murders, and David, by all accounts, was acting strange oh, I already went through this, okay. So anyway, he would show up at the house and be let in. He didn't seem shocked or to be grieving and he didn't show up to the viewing or the funeral. Yeah, now, that would be suspicious, although, again, see, if I were I, I, I there are scenarios where I wouldn't be able to do that either. Right, um, so, but yes, okay, okay. So he didn't show up and he packs up and moves to Michigan to be with his other girlfriend. Also suspicious If you're going to go shack up with your other girlfriend. Wait like six months, that is undoubtedly a point of suspicion.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. If you're a dude and you killed your wife or girlfriend to go be with another woman, wait six months. Keep it in your pants. If you're a lady, do the same thing. Maybe wait longer, because women have an extra sort of prejudice against them. And ladies, if you're going to kill for money and you want like bigger tits or something, again wait like six months, be patient, those are my, those are my. If you murder, uh tips okay, don't murder no, don't murder, please. That that was joking.
Speaker 2:Please, nobody murder anybody and then be like we heard it from here okay, Okay don't do that.
Speaker 1:No, I hope anybody listening would clearly know that I was joking.
Speaker 2:We're going to be charged on accessories.
Speaker 1:Okay by that time. Oh, no, where I lost it again. Okay, okay. He moved to Michigan to be with his girlfriend. Yeah, To shack up with her Fully.
Speaker 2:So he is a, and I had noted, I think, previously that he's like a black widower, Like he attempted to harm his previous significant other. He killed this one and now he's moving on to another one, Like that's a dangerous pattern.
Speaker 1:It is a dangerous pattern. So he is a prime suspect. But there is no evidence linking him to the murders. Again, all they had was the two letters. So they had to find a way to link the letters to David if in fact he was the killer. So the first letter, if you remember, had a postmark from Chicago and doing some sleuthing and some good gumshoe work they were able to find the only distribution center that would have made that particular postmark. The next step was to rebuild David's activities. Could they find something that would have put him around Chicago at the day and near the time that the letter was postmarked? So they look at his cell phone records and credit card receipts. They found a call that bounced off a tower a few miles from where the first letter was mailed. On the same day it was mailed. The second letter, again if you remember, remember, was mailed from gaylord, michigan, which is a small middle of nowhere town. I think I left the name. Last time you did, you were gonna.
Speaker 2:I think we both decided that you're gonna start a gay lord. Oh yeah, I'm starting a bookstore.
Speaker 1:You're gonna start a fantasy bookstore named Gaylord yes, and it'll be next door to my mystery themed bookstore and I will be the Gaylord of the Gaylord bookstore. There you go.
Speaker 2:Obviously.
Speaker 1:So David's credit card purchases show that he went on a bit of a road trip with his new girlfriend, amanda. He went on a bit of a road trip with his new girlfriend Amanda. The record shows the hotels they stayed in, a trip to the zoo, to the movies, to restaurants, and the trail shows that he was moving south on the interstate to the point where he would have been in Gaylord on the day the second letter was mailed. Within a few hour time frame he made purchases north and south of Gaylord. He made purchases north and south of Gaylord. There is a single highway going through it. So what are the odds? It's someone else who's mailed that letter. However, that doesn't prove anything. In court they decided they needed witnesses. So Malbin and his partner go on a road trip, they talk to store owners and vendors and they wind up with 23 to 25 people subpoenaed to the grand jury. They present their case to the grand jury and they get an indictment and an arrest warrant for David.
Speaker 1:By that time two years had passed. Amanda and David had a child together and she was pregnant with her second. He's arrested in Michigan. Detective Melvin gets his first chance to speak with him. So David does speak for a bit but then asks for an attorney. He also asked to speak to Amanda and she had asked to speak with David. Wait, who's Amanda? Again His girlfriend. Oh, okay, which Detective Melben allowed? David ultimately confessed to Amanda that he killed Angel and Vonda and wrote and mailed the letters. And, in case you're wondering, the conversation David and Amanda had was in the interrogation room where everything is recorded, right. Yeah, don't do that either, guys.
Speaker 1:That's dumb, don't people know, I don't know, apparently not. The trail was not a slam dunk. The trail, the trial.
Speaker 2:The trial was not a slam dunk. I think that happened last time too, it did happen last time I didn't change the wording.
Speaker 1:Didn't fix my notes. So the trial was not a slam dunk. The case against David is entirely circumstantial, which juries of course don't like, and the defense of course tries to get as much of it thrown out as they can. They try to have Angel's diaries and the taped conversation he had with Amanda out of out his evidence, but the judge allowed all of it out as evidence. But the judge allowed all of it. None of that matters, though, because he ultimately pled guilty to capital murder and first-degree murder a week before the trial was going to start. His plea deal was two life sentences. In exchange for that he had to stand in front of the victim's family and admit to killing Angel and Vonda. In his statement to the court he said he pled guilty for his family's sake. He never really explains anything or gives them a why.
Speaker 1:David did give an interview to Melissa McCarty I think that's her name. She's a true crime person. He told Melissa that he had gone to the house at 1 am to break up with Angel. He claims that when he told Angel that the relationship was over, there was a lot of crying and a lot of yelling, and it escalated from there. He said once he started he couldn't stop, and he also said he killed Vonta because she tried to stop him. God yeah what a dick.
Speaker 1:Okay, so that's the end. My source is really just one, because I'm lazy. Uh, no, the truth is, I did look, I did google it online, but all of it was like the information from 2020 or this murder thing, is going to be shown on 2020. So, anyway, so the source is 2020. House of Cards, season 45, episode 20. And that is that. We did it, we did it.
Speaker 2:Wait, I have to do my missing person again. Okay, Okay. So the story is from.
Speaker 1:Well, you got to give the information.
Speaker 2:Yes, so our person is Kit Mora. They are a missing Indigenous, non-binary teen. Okay, they've been missing for almost two years. Kit was living with their adopted family. At four years old they were adopted into sister's family, their sister's reporting to the article and their sister reported that when they started living with us it was kind of rocky at first. That when they started living with us it was kind of rocky at first. They would talk about the scary abuse that they had gone through. We were super close for a long time. Their sister said that closeness helped Kit to open up about their identity as a non-binary individual.
Speaker 2:In 2021, mora moved away from their adopted family to reconnect with their birth mother in Omak, several hours away from Yakima. A few months later, kimura stopped responding to messages. No one heard from them again. We say it was November 2021, their sister said, because that is the last social media presence, the last time any of our family spoke to Kit. You know they aren't the most social person as a whole. They're very anxiety-ridden but at the same time, they have always craved being around certain people like Amethyst, who is Kit's best friend Quote Kit's probably my best friend. Amethyst McCart said I knew them from kindergarten up until they disappeared.
Speaker 2:When McCart learned none of their friends had heard from Maura in several months, she started to investigate. Me and my grandma, julie, drove out to Elmac. Mccart said when we got there, the police told us Lori said they had run away. Lori Sue Nelson is Maura's biological mother. According to police, nelson reported Maura's runaway in September 2022, almost a year after Grew or McCart had last heard from them. We reached out to Nelson several times for this story but have not heard back. If Kit were to have run away in any sense, they would have come back to Yakima and come back to the people that they knew would support them, like their grandparents or their friends. Mccart said Kit wouldn't even go to a store with their friend when they were, you know, staying the night at a friend's house without telling my mom. Gru said Somebody always knew where Kit was, so it's really out of character.
Speaker 2:While they try to remain optimistic, maura's family knows Maura faces terrible risks as a non-binary Native teen. And then it goes on to talk about a 2022 study by the International Lesbian, gay, bisexual, trans and Intersex Association that found that most non-binary or trans murder victims in 2022 were indigenous women and trans women of color. Kit Moore is assigned female at birth, but they are non-binary. I think that being Native definitely put Kit at a higher risk for something like this. Grew said they just wanted to get to know their mom, said McCart, describing her last conversation with Maura. They weren't happy, like they thought they weren't going to be when they moved there With no signing or updates.
Speaker 2:Maura's family is now offering a $10,000 reward for information leading to their whereabouts a $10,000 reward for information leading to their whereabouts. They would have just graduated on Saturday. Gru said they would have had their first Pride Month as an adult. They would have been pursuing their dream of being a paleontologist. They would have been starting their life as an adult. That's all the things I got to do and I can't even say they're going to get to do it, because I don't even know where they are. We reached out to the OMAC Police Department for an update on their investigation. We will update the story when we hear back. There is no update. If you have any information about Moore's disappearance, please contact Detective Bowling with the OMAC Police at 509-557-5405 or the OMAC Police Department at 509-826-0383.
Speaker 1:And just to be clear, the we Will Update was the news source you got it from, not us? Yes, correct Okay. What was the news source you got it from? Not us. Yes, correct Okay.
Speaker 2:What was the news source? It is NBC K5. Well, hopefully they are found. For the Seattle-Tacoma area.
Speaker 1:Okay, so we've done our person, our missing person, we have done our big case and now we're going to talk about our book, which is hold on, my headphones are going. Our book is Unmask Alice, LSD, Satanic Panic and the Impostor Behind the World's Most Notorious Diaries by Rick Emerson. We also read just one of the diaries he talks about, which was Go Ask Alice, which is probably the most famous yes, yeah, the one most people read. I wish we had read.
Speaker 2:Jay's Journal. Yeah, after reading that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I did want to read that one, although it sounds horrendous.
Speaker 2:It does sound horrendous and I don't want to give any. Although I know she's passed away, I don't want to give money to who. Whoever is making money off of that misrepresentation.
Speaker 1:I don't want to give any money to that publisher for yeah, exactly um, I mean, the publisher is such a big publisher that you know if you want to read most books probably have to go through that publisher, but I don't want to give him money for that maybe we can get it from the library they. I don't know if they have jade's journal. They have go ask alice. Yeah, in audio and paperback you think we can request it through an interlibrary loan. Sure, it's been out long enough.
Speaker 2:It's been out for decades.
Speaker 1:PSA.
Speaker 1:Use your library, use your library and use interlibrary loan. It's awesome. You can get books from anywhere in the world using interlibrary loan. I once so. Do you remember, do you? Iq84 by haruki murakami? Okay, so it's a. Haruki murakami is a is a. He wrote a number of things like norwegian wood and a bunch of stuff. He's probably one of the most famous translated japanese writers. Yeah, he wrote a huge ass book like a thousand pages maybe not quite that much, but it's huge called IQ84. I really wanted to read that book. Yeah, problem though, I went to my local library and I thought they had it in English. I didn't check the fine print. It was a Chinese edition, that they were going to interlibrary loan. So I actually got a Chinese version of IQ 84 through interlibrary loan. Nice, yeah, I couldn't read it. Right, I couldn't read it, but uh, I got it. It's nice to know you can get something from.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I think they got it originally from China.
Speaker 2:Maybe they just got it from another library. Did you ever get an?
Speaker 1:English version to read. I did buy an English version and it sat on that shelf right there for years. It may still be sitting. No, I did actually take that in. It came out when I went to library school in Hawaii, which was 2010, 2011. So it sat there probably until last year.
Speaker 2:And did you read it?
Speaker 1:No, no, of course I didn didn't. Don't? You know, I buy the books and I don't read them? I do, but I had to ask. I know, no, that's not true. I'm getting better about reading them, or I was getting better, and then I went through this major year-long reading slump.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's been, it's been an issue okay, so a couple years ago you, you read like 200 books or something like that. I know.
Speaker 1:I know I don't know what happened February of like mid-February last year. My brain was just like nope, we're not doing this anymore and quite frankly, and I think I said it before, the only reason I read any books last year after February is because of you and my book club, and even my book clubs, I'm not sure.
Speaker 2:I didn't read the majority of them. When I was pregnant with my son and after I had him, I don't think I read for like two, three years, yeah. And then, like, my sister gave me a book and it was a stephen king book. It was like a part of a trilogy but it was the second of the trilogy. But I didn't find out until I was like halfway through but anyways, was it that mr mercedes trilogy?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah it was the second one, finders keepers, and anyway, I was like I miss reading. And there you go, now you're back on the gravy train.
Speaker 1:Yep, yeah, okay, so go ask alice. I mean unmask alice, we have, we're talking about both, though. Right, you're back on the gravy train. Yep, yeah, okay, so Go Ask Alice. I mean, unmask Alice, we were talking about both though right, we're going to talk about both.
Speaker 2:Yep, we read Go Ask Alice, and it was fucked up.
Speaker 1:It was fucked up, as is mentioned in a lot of. It was so fucked up, I think, that I actually blocked the vast majority of it out. Yeah, you did majority.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you did the the unmasked alice book, yeah, references like a bunch of parts and and I was like, he was like. I don't remember this I don't remember that part either.
Speaker 1:Yeah like it talks about when she's like prostitutes herself and she's like giving bjs for drugs, the bj I just didn't remember it being that descriptive.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I vaguely remember the orgy part, but I didn't remember it being that descriptive either Do you remember when she's talking about, like, how she gets pregnant and she can. Yeah, I didn't remember. She got pregnant, either, or she thought she got pregnant.
Speaker 2:She thought she got pregnant and she was like, yeah, I could find a doctor to take care of it. And I know that I which legit.
Speaker 1:I also, like I knew the grandpa part, the dead grandpa, coming back in her acid-laced dreams or whatever it was, yep, but I didn't remember the details. Yeah, I remember she vaguely had something about worms, but I't remember.
Speaker 2:That was like five paragraphs long when she was like I'll find a doctor to take care of it, I was like I was like that's a good decision, but I know that she put that in there because she wanted to shock and offend right, yeah, yeah, what year did go ask alice come out again? Was it 69? It was like 71, I think.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah so even abortion wasn't legal there. Even yeah, I'm just looking at my notes here I have a lot of that asshole fucking cops and fucking cops in one version. What did? What was it about? I mean, no offense to kai, I'm I'm not usually that bad, but oh yeah, oh, oh Okay. So yeah, part of Go Ask Alice, and if you've read the book you know that part of Go Ask Alice. The reason it was published was in part because Art Linkletter's daughter died. Somebody said it was through LSD. He got angry. He went with Nixon. Nixon wanted to have that stupid ass thing. Hold on, wanted to have that dumb ass. We know the drug law that I can remember the name of for some reason, even though I teach it all the time.
Speaker 2:I forget shit that I should know all the time too.
Speaker 1:I know, I think it's probably in there somewhere it is, I'm sure it is, but anyway. So the author, as you know, if you've read it, goes through all of these different cases that lead up to that and my fucking cops. One was because this guy found a couple of dead people in a place where he was in his building and he tells the cops and the cops can't link it to him, so they link a rape to him from the murder that he may or may not have actually committed. They just wanted to lock him up and I was like you, fucking cops yeah that.
Speaker 1:That is shit I mean because he didn, because he didn't murder the people and it's questionable whether he actually committed the rape. Probably not based on their behavior Probably not based on the story.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that I was like fucking America was like the part where they're talking about the CIA paying the prostitutes in heroin to slip LSD to their customers so that fbi agents could watch them fuck through peepholes, and that was supposed to be somehow informative on the effects of lsd. I'm like y'all are just gross and fucked up, like that's not science in any fucking capacity.
Speaker 1:No, no, it's not um yeah, just nasty. I have a lot of so many eye rolls or eye roll in here. Um, yeah, my, my fucking stupid. I have this one of my.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't have very uh, intelligent notes, I just and like it like before that they were talking about the other lsd research that like actual professors and stuff were doing, and I was like, yeah, that makes sense, like on depression and shit like that. And I was like, yeah, that sounds like legit. And then and then they were like, and here's what the us did. Oh, and the part where they were like also like giving it to like unsuspecting people, like even kids Did you read that part? They were like just giving unsuspecting people LSD, like yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Like maybe you're the problem US government yeah. Maybe, but US government? Yeah, maybe, but anyway.
Speaker 1:No, yeah, that whole time period was just, it was bananas.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And the stuff that was going on. Yeah, so, anyway. So if you didn't read the book, go Ask Alice was essentially it's part of that whole thing. Had link letters.
Speaker 2:Stamp of approval oh, but the thing I wanted to say about the link letter thing is that it did. It sounded like his daughter was fucking depressed, like her friends committed suicide or something yeah, but, as the author said, you don't want to believe that.
Speaker 1:As a parent, you want to believe that there is some outside source and lsd was something to grab onto. Yeah, drugs was something to grab onto yeah, it definitely is whether or not it was true, and you saw that a number of times in here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that is the overarching theme of the book is, that is, is these people desperately trying to deny the fact that these young people, young boomers, are depressed and they need real mental?
Speaker 1:health help. It was young at that time you know you know, I mean like, like he pointed out with the Eldon story, like when they wasn't it just a few months before his suicide is when they had their first real study of teen depression, like it just wasn't there. And his fucking psychiatrist was also like he's not depressed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, not at all. Yeah, that psychiatrist, oh my God I mean. But again, yeah, that psychiatrist, oh my God.
Speaker 1:I mean, but again.
Speaker 2:Well, fuck it, I'm going to piss off people anyway. It was a religious psychiatrist. That's what I also want to say. It was a religious psychiatrist, just the same, whatever brainwashing propaganda that he's being served at church and at home and everywhere else. And they just want him to conform to their ideals, which is what was depressing him in the fucking first place.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Although like at the same time I don't know, that a secular one would have been much better, in the sense that they didn't really know anything about teen depression.
Speaker 2:But they didn't like take him to. I'm not blaming the parents, but I'm like maybe take him to somewhere else.
Speaker 1:Dude, they only had three. They only had three psychiatrists, and they live in a state full of Mormons. I mean, it would be almost impossible to find a secular one.
Speaker 2:The other thing that bothered me was that after he passed away and the psychiatrist was like, well, I guess I was wrong. Then they took the younger kids to the same fucking psychiatrist.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I thought that was. But again the parents were grieving. And what choice did they have? Yeah, you know, they lived in a small area and again, there wasn't that much known Different time.
Speaker 2:It seemed like they knew, like they knew and going against their better instincts, you know, because they talked about how, like they didn't agree with the psychiatrist yeah, that he wasn't depressed, yeah but but then it's like what can you do?
Speaker 1:yeah, exactly so I think we got pissed off about different things. It sounds like though.
Speaker 2:Okay, what were you pissed off about?
Speaker 1:No, I'm not saying I was pissed off about those things too, but those were your like big things, right, some of them, some of them, yes, oh, I have all the things. Well, I've got a lot too and I was mad about those. Those things were rage-inducing. But for me, a lot of it, a lot of my anger, was at how Beatrice Sparks, nixon and a lot of other people used a parent's grief to further their own agendas.
Speaker 2:Beatrice Sparks is an absolute piece of shit.
Speaker 1:And so is Nixon, yeah, of course, and I mean, that goes without saying.
Speaker 2:Well, I think we all already knew that Nixon was a piece of shit. But yeah, he really Excuse me. Yeah, the things that pissed me off with Nixon obviously I mean obviously you guys don't know what I'm talking about. Obviously I mean obviously you guys don't know what I'm talking about is the part where all his researchers came back and was like, yeah, you should really decriminalize marijuana. And he was like I'm not going to decriminalize marijuana, you're all a bunch of Jews.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he was also a big racist. Yes, he's a big racist. Big racist? Well, because he didn't care about the drugs. It was about getting rid of black people putting them in jail as much as they can and getting rid of the hippies. Those were the things he cared about. It absolutely nothing to do absolutely.
Speaker 2:That's why, when the that one like they talked about in the beginning that possible drug-related crime and there is a black person involved, and they're like, ah yes, we can link the blame of this black person to LSD and we can criminalize LSD like had lsd in their system, but they also had a bunch of other shit in their system speed, alcohol.
Speaker 1:I think there was something else listed yeah, um yeah, obviously it was a play. I mean that that's next into a t, that doesn't?
Speaker 2:it's not a surprise, um so, um, and I also had shared with uh, katie, katie, when they were talking about how alcohol is so superior. Right, because all the civilized white societies and he legit says, like European societies drink alcohol and they are so great and they're not, they're unencumbered by their sophisticated alcohol drinking. And alcohol is so social and so elevated over drugs, and drugs make you a lazy bum and you're, you know, brown or black and you're a bum and you do drugs. He like pretty much clearly spells that out, that that's his opinion, and I was showing Katie a chart of like a study in the UK about, like the dangers of different drugs, and alcohol is like right up there at the top with heroin and methamphetamine, like meth and what was the other? Like crack, cocaine and shit like that like it's right up there.
Speaker 2:It's right up there. Yeah, it is a hard drug and you can walk into the grocery store and buy a lethal dose of it, and it's, it's legal and it's and and it's socially accepted. And I'm not saying that it shouldn't be, obviously, but I'm. What I'm saying is that, like we have a, it's a drug just like all the rest of these drugs, but because we view it from a different social lens, we deem that drug to be acceptable. Yeah, that's it. That's the spiel.
Speaker 1:I also got mad at the publisher for continuing to publish it.
Speaker 2:Yes, as a true story, despite the fact that it is not well. I think it was pretty clear from the beginning, when they they didn't put her name on it because they knew that it was gonna look, that it was gonna fall apart. I think it was pretty clear that they knew that well they.
Speaker 1:They didn't. They didn't want the, they didn't want an adult to be seen.
Speaker 2:I know that was their reason, but I think that they knew that it wasn't on the level.
Speaker 1:I don't know. They might have had some. I don't know, I didn't. I didn't get that. Maybe they had some instinct, but I don't. I don't think so. I think I get that Maybe they had some instinct, but I don't think so.
Speaker 2:I think I got that. I got that because he talked about the author. What's his name? Rick Emerson. Rick Emerson, he talked about how her story was always changing.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so.
Speaker 1:But it didn't sound like people paid that much attention. I mean it really didn't. She got away with it her whole life, Did so many people not pay attention, though?
Speaker 2:Or did they pay attention and then give her a pass? Because it seems like no.
Speaker 1:I think people don't want to believe that they've been had. So that's one thing. And I think at some point in this book he even says that people don't tend to question. You can say something and people aren't really going to question you, especially if you say it with force and with conviction, and she seemed to have all of these things right. Where are the? Uh? Where are the psychologists or the doctors who read this and said it's okay, she makes them up, right, and this is also before the time of the internet. For most of it, and even for the internet part, it wasn't a very good internet.
Speaker 1:It wasn't the internet we have today, so they don't really have a way of doing that. But yeah, a lot of people didn't check their sources. I think a lot of it is that these books hit their own biases. They wanted to believe it. Hell yeah, they wanted to believe it and they were like it seems real, so therefore it must be real, yep.
Speaker 1:And even though her story keeps changing I think people blow that off a lot I know I've done that I mean you know, and it isn't until I look back and I'm like, oh yeah, they changed that quite a few times, you know, because, because what you want, you don't want to believe somebody's lying to you, so you pass it off as like, oh, maybe I misheard them or maybe they misspoke, you know, or maybe she's she has got her phd now, yeah, right, or whatever it is. I think people are I would say people are much more suspicious now, but I think really you and I are more suspicious now because of all the true crime stuff. Yeah, but I think if you're, if you're not into true crime and you're not naturally suspicious and you don't work in the justice field, you're probably going to find ways to excuse weird stuff like that.
Speaker 2:That's true, and I also thought about a lot about how she really fully understood and utilized her privilege as a rich Mormon white woman. Because she was wealthy, she had a good reputation. She wasn't because she had that privilege. People didn't question her. If she had been somebody else, they might have I.
Speaker 1:I think it's also too that she does what a lot of con people do, a lot of fraudsters do, which is that they don't answer a question directly. Yep, right, so when you're the person asking the question, they don't answer it directly. Sometimes you forget you even asked a question. Yeah, you know. Or you're like caught up and you're like, yeah, that or you're like maybe that's the answer to my question.
Speaker 1:Yeah, even though it's not, yeah because, like, um, if you think about right, like I'm obsessed with cults and all they say a whole bunch of shit that makes absolutely no sense, but it sounds like it makes sense, yeah, so you accept it. Or like I was thinking about WeWork Did you ever watch that documentary?
Speaker 2:I don't think I ever gave you the name of the documentary. I haven't talked about it, but I haven't watched it yet. I watched over the course of several days. I watched the program. We'll talk about that in a minute.
Speaker 1:Yes, but, like WeWork, that documentary was fascinating. I didn't even know WeWork existed I don't think I was here in the States at the time but they were talking about how this guy would go on the news and talk to people who do economics for a living, who do economic journalism for a living, and he would just spout stuff and they would accept it, they wouldn't question it, even though it made absolutely no sense, you know, because they were just like, well, maybe he makes it sounds like he should make sense. Are you looking at the fact that I lost my pinky? Yes, uh, how did you know? Because I could see you're looking at this hand and then looking at that hand I was like what happened?
Speaker 2:It's short.
Speaker 1:I broke not just the fake nail, but my actual nail. Owie, yeah, yeah. So I'm going to have to go in and see if they can fix it, but it's really short because, I did it almost halfway down the nail bit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, ouch, yeah it hurt, it doesn't hurt anymore, but yeah, so I think people just don't question. Yeah, you know, yeah, so that's the alice thing, part of the whole drug war on drugs and all that shit. Then we get to jay's journal and poor alden. I really liked alden, yes, I like him. So sad for him.
Speaker 2:It made me sad and it made me furious, and even though I felt so much, I did feel so much pity for his parents. But they also pissed me off too, because they did contribute to it too with a shit with his fucking hair. Like, holy shit, just let your kid grow his fucking hair yeah, a few goddamn inches. And like my God, it just pissed me off Like they made like the littlest things such a big deal, like, oh no, he smoked a little bit of weed. We're going to lose our fucking shit. And then the whole community just lost their shit.
Speaker 1:No wonder I know, but you have to remember the time and the place.
Speaker 2:I know the time, but it's like no wonder these kids were so fucking depressed. Oh yeah, like that's just normal teenage shit, yes, and like he couldn't even. Like he just had a regular inquisitive mind, which I understand, because I have an inquisitive mind and they just shut him down, yeah, and like, well, you don't want to make waves, you don't want your kid to be.
Speaker 1:I mean, like they were saying that is such an insular community, not just Mormonism, but that community itself, right, like kids were getting married at like 15, 16 years old yeah, gross. But that community itself, right Like kids were getting married at like 15, 16 years old. Yeah, gross, but like if you're different then you're not going to get married and if you're not married then you don't get to be with your family.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, I mean, the whole thing is so toxic.
Speaker 1:It is toxic, but that's their belief system, and so I mean I agree with you. I was not there with the parents. I felt bad afterwards, but yeah, however, it's that time and place right If you have long hair, then it's that fear of oh my God, they're going to be hippies. And if they're, hippies, then they're doing drugs and oh my God, if they're doing drugs, then they're going to kill people, and it's Manson, and it's all of this stuff.
Speaker 2:You know, but they still didn't realize that it was that community and that fostering that demand for conformity.
Speaker 1:Well, they weren't going to. That was crushing him, because their whole faith is based on that. I know, but it's, and they were raised in that.
Speaker 2:And it's like not just him, so many other kids.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I know, I know it's like not just him, so many other kids.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I know I know it's anger inducing and I was reading about how you know, is they talk about like the higher, like suicide rate? And it's not just you know, I will say, it's not just like with mormons, it's any kind of insular, you know kind of communities where more rural communities, communities where they do expect more conformity, yeah, being different is not a good thing and it feels like it's impossible.
Speaker 1:And when you're a teenager and you have those right, everything for a teenager is immediate and you really can't fathom the future. Right, like a year seems so far away. When you're an adult, it's like tomorrow. Right, is that is a factor? Access to guns? Well, yeah.
Speaker 2:Access to guns increase the rate of suicide a lot, and most of those kids that they talked about killed themselves with guns. Well, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:That is true, that is true. I think he even mentions it in here that it's yes, yeah.
Speaker 2:He does mention it and and I I read about it on on the internar yeah but yeah, like most of the like, um, the ones who some of the kids who attempted suicide with pills failed, like theresa she failed in her suicide attempt with pills. Yeah, there is another kid who failed in his suicide attempt with pills and then later killed himself with a gun.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's that's a way to do it. But what breaks my heart the most, for alden and for his family, is beatrice sparks and her bullshit yes, with jay's journal. So let me summarize it real quick so poor alden, young, young, teenage mormon guy who, a kiddo, who is questioning things and, uh, the world around him, questioning his faith, questioning all those things, uh, stuff happens. He kills himself. Right, his mom finds the journal, or is given the journal. She gives it to beatrice sparks because she's aware of go ask alice. Yeah, beatrice sparks takes the journal and then makes poor alden turn into jay and he's a Satanist who does horrible, terrible things. And then she's not even kind enough to really make enough changes that people wouldn't know.
Speaker 1:She leaves it so close to the truth that everybody knew who Alden was, everybody knew the family, everybody knew the friends, all of it, and that poor family had to live with that shit forever. And poor Jay's memory was that of a Satanist and an occultist and a person who murdered cars, cows and had orgies.
Speaker 2:Drink their blood, drink their blood Kill babies. And not only did she ruin his reputation, but she also ruined theresa's reputation, who is still alive, yeah, saying that she did the orgies and that she did all that shit too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, she ruined she and she didn't care. That's the thing. She didn't care either.
Speaker 2:Well, she doesn't care, she's a fucking like, she's a narcissist.
Speaker 1:Yeah, she's something I'm gonna say narcissist because, yeah, that's so, that was jay's journal and it's part of the satanic panic. It's part of kind of what makes it go bonkers she always puts herself like she's the savior of these kids. Yes, yes, she does do that. When was jay's journal published?
Speaker 2:was it 79? Okay, god, you're asking me with it.
Speaker 1:Well, I I do think it was the 70s because I yesterday was watching a documentary documentary called amityville, an origin story, which is about the murder that happened, and then the let's is that moved in and that famous movie and book and whatever. Well, during this documentary, like a lot of it, was how people were fascinated by the occult at the time, right Like news stations were talking about not just kids but like adults participating in all this stuff, and not necessarily in like a fear value, just in like an interest and in haunted houses. And then, at the same time you had the three big movies. You had the Exorcist, the Omen and Amityville Horror, which all came out, which freaked people out about possession and all that stuff.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, oh yeah. What really freaked me out was the survey numbers of how many people thought that the devil was a real, living, corporeal being.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and still do, and it was recent, yeah. So they were primed for Jay's journal and they were primed then to go into the satanic panic and worry about their kids and being whatever, and you have all these people saying it's true. You had the Warrens, who I think did a lot of damage, as well. Oh yeah, they did lots of damage and all of that stuff.
Speaker 2:This is why I don't. I love horror movies. I do like those none ones. They're so silly but they are based on that. But yeah, it makes me, it pisses me off how they have those movies and they're so popular and people love those movies and it makes the warrens seem like they're like these you mean the conjuring heroes, the conjuring movies? Yes, yeah, yeah, it makes them seem like they're like and and um the ones with that doll yeah, annabelle and shit like that yeah and? And they're not. They're scammer assholes yeah and yeah.
Speaker 1:so anyway, I was just saying, you know, sometimes it feels like the satanic panic came out of nowhere. But if you look at the few years prior to the satanic panic starting, you can kind of see where it's coming from. And you can kind of see how people were so willing to accept Jay's journal as being a real thing, right, because they'd already seen all this stuff that had come out that seemed so real and some of it that was said to be real like.
Speaker 1:Amityville. So yeah, it was. So that was interesting. It just put that whole chapter into a bigger perspective for me, because he doesn't really go into it but I don't know if he knew that right, like I didn't really know, I didn't really go into it, but I don't know if he knew that right, like I didn't really know, I didn't really think about it, yeah, until I saw the amityville horror. And they don't make that connection obviously to jay's journal.
Speaker 1:they don't mention that at all yeah it was just a connection I made where I was like, oh, this didn't come out of nowhere, this, they were primed for this because this stuff had been going on for a few years, yeah, and it went from a fascination to a fear.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, he did talk about how people were really into the occult, but he didn't talk about specifically that and the other.
Speaker 1:Oh God, but the whole thing about the satanic panic, that makes me mad and I'm sorry I know Rachel's going to disagree with me here, but I do think a lot of police officers are just fine no-transcript well then? Well then they go and they say, well, we don't know about them because of the breeding, we don't know about them because of the cannibalism where's this, where's this breeding? Taking place well, I know, I know that you know they just, Even if you cannibalize a person.
Speaker 2:There's still evidence.
Speaker 1:There's still bones and shit. You're getting too logical, rachel. My point is that it's people like that, the people who are in positions of power that are supposed to help people who, for for what it seems like for her was that she had all this adulation. She became really famous. She was asked to go to quantico yeah, and present, and she was made to seem like she was this amazing person and instead she and you know she, she's a person of power and she's supposed to be there to help, and all she did was make things worse.
Speaker 2:They sent all those people to prison for nothing. I know.
Speaker 1:And then also, you know, I know, police officers are human. This is why evidence is important, but I think, but I think it's important I think if you're gonna be again in a position like that, you need to check your beliefs at the door. This is check them at the door because you are. If you're being uh, you know, you're letting your personal religious beliefs or your personal fears dictate how you're investigating something, then you're gonna fuck up and you're destroying lives instead of helping, and I think and that's what happened here- you know, at least, at least you know me, I'm gonna say that that's what cops are in the business to do is destroy people's lives, not rich, wealthy, white.
Speaker 2:but that's why cops exist is to police poor people, brown and black people. To censure us, and I'm saying this as a working class person, I'm a white person. Okay, let's get back to the book.
Speaker 1:I appreciate your passion, rachel, but we get sidetracked. So they were primed for Jay's journal, and then she goes on to do so many more things and hurts a lot of people and those fucking publishers. I know I said it already, but I that really pisses me off. I will say, though, kudos to all those librarians who, uh, mr emerson mentioned who were like this is bullshit, yeah, yeah, this is dumb. Don't read this. Good for you. Good for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You were in the minority, that's true. But yeah, you can't fool a librarian Most librarians there are a few.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, so oh.
Speaker 2:The part about the part that also surprised me was that there wasn't any standards for what has to be categorized as fiction or nonfiction. Did you read that? You mean in the?
Speaker 1:you mean, you talked?
Speaker 2:about.
Speaker 1:Like it's not regulated. You basically have to. You're basically promising that you're telling the truth, which doesn't ever fucking work. The honor system doesn't work. I'm sorry, it doesn't work. It only works for people who are willing to be honest.
Speaker 2:And let's face it, when money's involved people are not honest.
Speaker 1:That's just. That's a truth, a universal I will die on that hill. That's a truth, a universal I will die on that hill. It's universal truth, I think. Anyway, yeah, there needs to be some regulation, there needs to be some sort of definition that says this is what makes something true and this is what makes something fiction. Of course, there are going to be blurry lines, because if it's a memoir, let's say, but they do fictionalize it a little bit. Is it fiction or is it memoir? Like how much of it has to be true for it to be true? I keep thinking about do you remember I think it's 2008, because because I remember being in Australia when it happened there was that book it was on Oprah's Book Club, or at least it was on Oprah about the guy who wrote that book about his drug use and drug addiction, and it turned out every fucking thing was false. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's still in the nonfiction. Oh, it wouldn't surprise me. I'm pretty sure I remember seeing it there.
Speaker 2:Well, didn't we pick up our copies of Go Ask Allison?
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, because they say that it's nonfiction and if somebody hasn't read it or doesn't know the history, then how are they gonna?
Speaker 2:My copy says fiction, but it's on the inside, yeah, and like as fiction, but it's on the inside. Yeah, and like tiny print, yeah and, yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1:and also, you know I was thinking, because towards the end, this has nothing to do with that, but towards the end, emerson brought up the fact that there were people who it wasn't that they. They know that it was fake, they know that it was fake, they know that the drug abuse and stuff is bullshit, that all of that stuff is bullshit. Yeah, but they still really loved the book because it spoke to them, many of them gay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right, yeah, that made me so sad too, because it's like she hates queer people.
Speaker 1:She's not trying to speak to you like like she's trying to to like tell queer people to go fuck themselves, like you know, I know, but I think what they were saying was like she embodied the, the thoughts and the shame and all of that. That they felt so they connected with her on that level I mean some of this stuff.
Speaker 2:It did make me feel like, like, is she like, is this double speak? Because she kept using the word the straight kids, the straight kids and I was like, is this just like how they talked in the 70s or does she mean?
Speaker 1:straight.
Speaker 2:Like straight doesn't mean straight yeah like that straight means straight means not doing drugs, mean straight, yeah, like that straight means, straight means not doing drugs. So that was one of the things that they mentioned. Like um in the book, like when she says like oh, like, like they can't, they can't make me straight, or something like that in one of the lines and it does kind of seem like it's a double message.
Speaker 1:It could be, but I don't think that.
Speaker 2:I don't think the term was used that way back then maybe that's one of the things that I think that's us projecting yeah, yeah, because because the word straight usually meant like a square. It meant somebody who didn't do anything bad, who conformed, who did the right thing, but that's like one of the things that made me feel like like what does she mean by that? Yeah, but Because it seems it does sound not dissimilar to God words are failing me of whatchamacallit camp Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:You mean? Uh, I know what you mean, but I forgot.
Speaker 2:Try and force people to be straight camp. Mm-hmm, I want to say concentration camp, but that's not. No, not too unlike, and speaking what is the word? Because I know it. In fact I said it to you the other day Conversion therapy, yeah, yes, yeah, that's funny. Conversion therapy, yeah, yes, the stuff when she's in the, whatever asylum or whatever it is, it didn't sound dissimilar to conversion therapy, and neither did the stuff in the program, which are we going to talk about that briefly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I was going to say we should do that, which we can segue to, because they put Alden's baby brother in one of those things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, um, I don't know if it's exactly the same like whatever company, but it was one of those things.
Speaker 1:I don't think so, Cause the the person that did the one from the program was later in life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Um, that that made me think. How many more companies are there that do those awful torture schools?
Speaker 1:It is done by a survivor of such a program. These are schools, quote unquote, for troubled teens, often religious, and essentially they are really just places where children are abused.
Speaker 2:The one that they I'm looking it up right now. I don't know this. Off the top of my head, the one that they were concentrating on was one, uh, that was in new york state, new york, and it was called the academy at ivy ridge yeah, they focused on that because the the person who made the documentary and all of the people, or most of the people she interviewed were from that one.
Speaker 1:But yeah, so it's a.
Speaker 2:It's a program supposedly for troubled teens and essentially it's heavily regimented, but it it's abusive and and you don't have to do shit to get in there, just whatever your parents feel like. The, the main person who was doing the documentary, got sent there because she drank a Mike's Hard lemonade. That was it. Yeah, and they're like here here, enjoy 15 months of torture.
Speaker 1:Yeah, although I don't. It seemed as though the parents really didn't know and that was the whole point. Right, the parents were told don't believe your kids, they're lying, they want to do any, they want to get out of this. It's good for them to be here.
Speaker 2:And they also used cult-like tactics and mind control on the adults videos of the kids like playing and like doing sports and being outside and having fun and they couldn't do. They didn't do any of that stuff. Who got sent to prison for rioting at the school said that compared to being in the program, that prison was like a five-star hotel.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so just to be clear, the one at the program that was a late 90s, early 21st century school. There is one to link it back to our book Unmask Alice, the brother Scott of Alden, who found poor Alden when he was very young was starting to get into trouble and stuff and so his parents sent him to a similar type school in Provo. It was in Utah, yes, in Provo, and where there are actually some of these still around. I don't think they're the same ones, but there are some that are still around.
Speaker 2:That same company, though, the WASP company. Like, how obvious can you be Like we're white supremacist Christians.
Speaker 1:Anyway. So Scott was sent back, or not sent back, but sent to one of those schools. So that's why we were talking about it and how it's linked yeah and it's devastating, and if you haven't seen it, you should. It'll make you angry, but it's worth it physically, mentally, psychologically and sexually.
Speaker 2:In some cases abuse these kids for months and sometimes years. One of the kids was in there for over three years and and they also said they were a fucking school. They were accredited school and they weren't an accredited school. They made them do some like cartoon religiously program on the computer, the same program like every day, yeah, and then they gave them a fake diploma. So all those years that they were being tortured Was for nothing.
Speaker 1:Was for nothing. No, it's all for the person to make a lot of money.
Speaker 2:They couldn't fart without permission or smile, they would get in trouble for farting.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So yeah, it was horrible, but if you haven't seen it, you should watch it.
Speaker 2:You should watch it. But, yeah, definitely trigger warnings for child abuse, yes, and religious trauma. So if you are a victim of religious trauma, like us, then be warned.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we watched that as part of this as well. I'd only discovered it after we started reading it. That's why we didn't put it on the episode any of the other episodes but although you have probably seen it, because I think it was like number one on netflix for a while and it's been on uh, good news agencies have been more publicity this gets, hopefully, yeah it had a lot of stuff 20, uh 15 years ago and nobody did anything about it.
Speaker 1:Uh, it even went up into congress and they, they were, yeah, we'll do stuff. And then they didn't do anything.
Speaker 2:Well, that's because these fucking people in Congress are the same assholes who are doing this shit. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so on that happy note quickly, because I know you have to get home to make supper for your kiddos. Was there anything else you watched?
Speaker 2:I've been watching Picard and I watched, re-watching some Steven Universe, which, if you haven't seen it, is a lovely, just charming cartoon. 10 out of 10, recommend it's very cute. It's 10 recommend it's very cute. It's very queer, it's very family friendly, it's adorable and wonderful and weird. And so if you haven't seen Steven Universe, what are you even doing? What are you doing, katie, watch Steven Universe.
Speaker 1:It's on Hulu.
Speaker 2:We watched a couple or we watched just one, I think, new Bob's Burgers episodes.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:So that's what we watched, and I've been reading August Kitko and the Mechas from Space.
Speaker 1:Finally, Are you liking it? Yes, I am liking it Good, because nobody else I've recommended it to has liked it.
Speaker 2:You didn't tell me that there's a non-binary character. I thought I did. If you did, I forgot. Yeah, main character's gay.
Speaker 1:The other main character is non-binary.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I like it a lot and it involves it's queer and spacey and nerdy and it involves giant AI and one is like a cat which is hilarious, yeah, and named after the author's cat, I believe.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a fun book. It's. Don't let the, don't let the page count.
Speaker 2:Fool you, it's, it's good I got it on audiobook so I have no idea what the page count is. It's a lot um uh, yeah, um.
Speaker 1:So what did I watch? I watched, um, I stuck to my true crime stuff, background noise, a lot of the same things. But I also should I watch that amityville and origin story. That that's on MGM plus. If you want to watch it, watch the program, and I also watched. Or I just started today, born in, sign on on paramount plus. So if you're into cults, that's a good one. It is directed by a woman who was born into the cult.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so she talks to her parents and she talks to other kids who are in the cult. She talks to survivors of the cult and it's really interesting because it feels like at this point a lot of them still don't think it was a cult and they look back on that point in time as being a very happy time for themselves, which is interesting. And I also watched a show I think it's fairly new because I think there were only three or four episodes was called framed by the killer, which is interesting. The first one I have thoughts on, but I think I'll bring that up in a different episode, but it was interesting. So so you watched happy things, I watched more murder, yeah, so, um, oh, oh, the reason I had my phone out here and sorry for all the bumping around, we're both drinking tea and fiddling oh and yeah, okay, we're almost done.
Speaker 1:I'm just going to give everybody the new book we're going to read. So what episode is that 16? Is four episodes from now, rachel? What's Four episodes from now? Is that episode 16? Yes, hell's Half Acre, the Untold Story of the Benders, a Serial Killer Family on the American Frontier, by Susan Jonasas. It's J-O-N-U-S-A-S. We're taking a break from the fraud material that we've done for the last few books and heading into serial killer territory, so maybe that'll be interesting to a few more people. Don't forget to do what Rachel download, subscribe subscribe review review send us an email.
Speaker 1:Yeah, send us an email. Hit us up on Instagram. We also have a Facebook page. We also have our personal Instagrams. All of that will be in the show notes. We was a complicated case. It was a complicated case. You certainly, I think, brought in more things that made it even more complex and maybe not so clear cut.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's what I do.
Speaker 1:So that's why it was quite a bit of time, okay, so thank you guys for listening and we will talk to you in the next episode. Thanks, thanks, bye.