Details Are Sketchy
A bimonthly true crime podcast, in which two friends share an unsolved disappearance or unsolved case, a crime they're most intrigued by, and talk all things true crime.
Details Are Sketchy
Hard2Get: The Untimely Murders of JB Beasley and Tracie Hawlett
In this episode, Rachel brings us once cold case of JB Beasley and Tracie Hawlett. Then we discuss our book "The Witch of New York: The Trials of Polly Bodine and the Cursed Birth of Tabloid Justice" by Alex Hortis. Unfortunately, for a number of reasons, there's no missing person case this episode.
Our next book is "Little, Crazy Children: A True Crime Tragedy of Lost Innocence" by James Renner, which we will discuss in episode 24.
Sources:
ABC News. May, 10, 2024. Forever 7. 20/20, s46, e27.
Stone Cold Project, 2024. Tracie Hawlett and JB Beasley: Case 2015-C.
Richard Everett & Aaron Dixon, April 24, 2023. McCraney Murder Trial: Witness Claims he saw OPD Car at the Scene of the Crime Hours Before Police Reported it, Defense Rests in McCraney Murder Trial. WDHN ABC.
Richard Everett & Aaron Dixon, 2023. Investigators Who Found Murdered Teens Recounts Fateful Day, Jury Shown Disturbing Crime Scene Photos. WDHN ABC.
Ken Curtis, April 20, 2023. Officer Testimony Differs In McCraney Murder Trial.
Marcus Mewborn, May 10, 2024. DNA Match Leads to Arrest Of Minister Two Decades After Murders of 2 Alabama Teens. ABC News.
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I'm Kiki and I'm Rachel, and this is Details Are Sketchy, a true crime podcast, and this is episode 20. So this one's going to be a little bit different because a number of reasons, but there won't be any missing person in this episode, partly because this is going to be a long one Rachel's got her case, which is longer than expected. Rachel's got her case, which is longer than expected, and also because we have the book to talk about, the Witch of New York. So I guess we're just going to launch right into Rachel's thing unless she has something she wants to say.
Speaker 2:No, I wanted to say is that I tried to go for a short episode and you had advised me to just pick a random episode of 2020 or something, which I did do, but then I had questions about the occurrences in the episode and it turned out to be less straightforward than I had hoped and, unfortunately, because I'm a procrastinator and I didn't have time to choose something else, so we're going with it. Okay, so the the 2020 episode I chose was called forever 17. And, uh, it did air this this year, I think in like May or something like that, maybe in June, but it it covered the 1999 murders of two teenage girls, jb Beasley and Tracy Hollett. On August 1st 1999 in Ozark, alabama. The black Mazda of JB was discovered on this side of the road, according to a former classmate of the deceased, Veronica Silver. Veronica Silver is the name of the classmate, not of the deceased. I realized that I didn't put that very clearly. Quote Ozark is a small, sleepy town.
Speaker 1:Aren't they always small? And sleepy towns where nothing bad ever happens. Neighbors don't lock their doors.
Speaker 2:They're like we've never heard of a crime in our life. So I put on a personal note I'm tired of hearing about how small or lazy or innocent or unassuming XYZ small town is in various true crime shows. Yep, and I wrote that human nature is constant everywhere in the world. Murder happens everywhere. But back to the topic at hand, ozark has, or had I wasn't clear on whether or not they were referring to the census numbers from 1999 or the current numbers yeah, 14,000 residents, so pretty small. Yeah, 14,000 residents, so pretty small. And that part of Alabama is known as the wiregrass region, apparently because the grass that grows in that area is like a wiry type of varietal. Huh, yeah, the two victims lived in a nearby, slightly larger town of Dothan, which had about 70,000 residents, which is known as the peanut capital of the world.
Speaker 1:I think Sudan would probably question that. Yeah, I think it's Sudan.
Speaker 2:This region is known for growing lots of peanuts and they have a peanut festival every year. They were showing some scenes about it and I was like, wow, I cannot take my son there. My son is allergic to peanuts. So, aside from that peanut capital thing, which they went on about longer than was necessary at Capitol thing, which they went on about longer than was necessary, so these 17 year olds were going into their senior year, or were about to go into their senior year of high school. Jb was described as funny, charismatic and a talented dancer. Tracy was a majorette, which I didn't know until yesterday is what those baton twirlers in the marching band are called. And so she did that. And she was also known as a studious learner. She had a 4.0 GPA and they said she was a Sunday school teacher, which I don't know how I feel about that, since she was.
Speaker 1:At 17?
Speaker 2:Yeah, just a 17-year-old. It seems kind of like kind of a raw deal to me. So she had a part-time job at Tracy Penny. Her name is Tracy. Tracy had a part-time job at JCPenney, at the local mall, and JB would frequent the mall to shop and hang out with her. On Friday, july 31, 1999, jb invited Tracy to come join her at a birthday party, which turned out to be a local party. I was a little bit confused about that point, because they said that it was JB's party and they said she invited her to a birthday party, but it didn't seem like it was JB's birthday party, so I was a little bit confused about that.
Speaker 2:It seemed like it was just a birthday party, yeah, so Tracy's mother was reluctant because she had wanted Tracy home by her curfew at 1130. But Tracy and JB assured her that they would be home by that time. Veronica Silver reported that JB and Tracy planned to have a sleepover at JB's and then go to church together on Sunday, which I thought sounded like a little bit of an angelic portraiture of these 17-year-olds.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know, Maybe they were like that. So JB had a car, a black Mazda 929 that was a gift from her father. Jb's guardian reported she kept it very clean and in good condition. She kept it very clean and in good condition. Jb picked up Tracy at nine and they went to JB's house to change and leave for the field party, which I'm like. So is the field party the birthday party or is this a different party? That was another point that I wasn't clear on.
Speaker 2:So the field party is basically like a bonfire party. It's like a local town party where they have a bonfire in a field and they didn't say so but they get drunk. Basically, However, the girls reportedly never made it to the party.
Speaker 1:Oh no.
Speaker 2:Yeah, which makes me think that it couldn't have been JB's party, because certainly she would have known where her own party was.
Speaker 1:Yeah, maybe other people were throwing it for her.
Speaker 2:Yeah, at some point they pull over to a gas station in Ozark and a woman and her teenage daughter gave them directions back home. Back home, before they left the gas station, tracy called her mom on a payphone because at that point she was just past her curfew of 1130. The call was made at like 1138. She told her mom they had gotten lost in Ozark looking for the party, but they had gotten directions and were now headed home. Tracy's mother reported that Tracy did not sound worried or stressed. They said I love you and hung up the call and that was the last that anyone heard from either of the girls. Tracy's mother reported she went to bed around 1230 that night, expecting to wake up to her daughter being home, but when she woke up around five in the morning the kitchen light that she had left on for her was still on and the girls were not there. Tracy's father, mike, went out and drove to Ozark looking for the girls. He was looking on the sides of the road and in ditches in case they had been in a car accident, but he couldn't find anything. Meanwhile Tracy's mom called both of the local hospitals and when that didn't turn up anything she called the police. The police put out an alert to be on the lookout for JB's Black Mazda around 8 pm.
Speaker 2:Within a few hours the car had been found on the side of a rural road in Ozark called Herring Avenue, a location not too far from the gas station where Tracy had last called her mother. The car was found unlocked, with the windows rolled down. There were no signs of external damage to the car or signs it had been in an accident. The girls' things were all still in the car their purses, their wallets, their money. Tracy's keys, which bore Tracy's keys, sorry, were still in the car.
Speaker 2:But the only thing missing was JB's keys, which bore a white and black key chain reading hard to get, like a two Hard to get, as they do in the 90s. There was no sign in or around the car to indicate that a struggle had taken place. There were some nearby houses and initially officers entertained the idea that the car had been broken down and the girls may have left the car and walked away for help. They decided to keep, although to me I'm like. Why would they if the car broke down and they walked away? Why would they leave the car unlocked and leave all their things in the car?
Speaker 2:Right, that doesn't make sense, no, it doesn't, they decided to keep a patrol car nearby to watch the mazda, in case the girl showed back up. Hours passed with no new information. Officer alton miller, a now retired juvenile investigator with Dothan Police Department Criminal Investigation Division and a close friend of the family's, decided to head down to the scene. Immediately. He sensed that something was off about the potential crime scene. He wondered had anyone checked the trunk Nearly six hours after the discovery of the vehicle. They had not. Miller's wife owned a similar mazda and he knew that there was a button on the driver's side door to automatically pop the trunk, so he did so. Unfortunately, this revealed the bodies of the missing teen who had been there the whole time.
Speaker 2:Later on during the investigation, the police would give conflicting testimony about when the bodies were found. Ozark Police Sergeant Bobby Blankenship would report that, due to the officers initially investigating the case as a missing persons report that the bodies were not found around till 2 PM in the afternoon. However, on this stand, alton Miller claimed he went down and made the discovery as early as 11 AM. I'm going to go with a longer timeline because that's what the 2020 documentary indicated and that seemed to be more consistent with all of the different testimonies, the Ozark Police Department seemed pretty clear that they were sitting there watching the car for hours, and that report certainly doesn't do them any favors, so I don't see why they would lie about that.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:The girls were lying there in the trunk head to feet. The girls were lying there in the trunk head to feet. Both of them had been shot execution style with what turned out to be a 9mm pistol. They had their hands up toward their faces in anticipation of what was coming. They had been ordered into the trunk and then shot. The girls were found fully clothed, with no obvious signs of a struggle. Tracy had been killed by a single shot to the temple. There was a scratch on her arm and there were brighter thorns stuck in her pants. Her brand new shoes were covered in mud. From the way they were positioned in the trunk it looked like she had been placed or ordered into the trunk first. There is a nine millimeter shell casing on her leg. Jb had been shot in the cheek and she was covered in mud. Both her clothes and her shoes were dirty. Her socks were wet. Both girls' pants were wet below the knee.
Speaker 2:The police contest that this indicates that they were not in the area where the car was found, because the ground there was solid and the crime took place elsewhere, and then the killer drove the car with the girls in the trunk to the location it was found, and this was further supported by the blood splatter found on the excuse me on the underside of the car through an exit bullet hole in the trunk. The blood spray was blown back on the underside of the car as if the car was in motion. As the blood dropped from the hole, the police reported they never found the murder weapon. And this was. There's some more. I'll give some more point of contention about that later. But this was some information they were incredibly sparse about. They didn't really give any information about their search or anything that they did to try and locate the murder weapon. They just said they didn't find it and they also never found the original crime scene. So interestingly and I'll cover this more later a paperboy who reported seeing the car before it was discovered three times did suggest an earlier crime scene. However, that report was somehow not filed and nearly 20 years later, when he testified on the stand about what he had seen, his eyewitness testimony was discredited. So we'll get into that later.
Speaker 2:So autopsies revealed that neither girl had been raped and there were no traces of drugs or alcohol in their systems.
Speaker 2:However, two months after the initial report, the State Crime Lab released a report that showed traces of semen had been found on JB's bra, panties and skin.
Speaker 2:An unknown palm print was recovered from the lid of the trunk, according to the Stone Coat Project, and police felt that the DNA evidence from the lid of the trunk, according to the Stone Cold Project, and police felt that the DNA evidence from the semen was crucial in their investigation, so the police led a search to find the killer or killers.
Speaker 2:Some extremely grainy surveillance footage at the gas station showed a white truck pulling up and sitting at the station around the time the girls were at the gas station. In the 2020 episode, the police reported that they had interviewed that suspect and they claimed that he went to get gas, but then he ended up not getting gas and then just left the station, and I thought that that was really suspicious and weird and I didn't understand why would you go get gas and then change your mind, and not get gas and then leave? The only reason that I could think of is if you discovered that you didn't have money, that or price and that I could think of is if you discovered that you didn't have money, that or price, yeah, or that.
Speaker 2:However, there was no more word on that suspect. There is no seemingly in-depth investigation on that suspect and, according to the Stone Cold Project, that truck and that driver seem to have disappeared and there are no details about that that person. There was a suspect from michigan who was at a party I don't know if it's that same field party or a different party the night of the murders, near where the car was found, who was considered a viable suspect. According to detective speevy, even after the test failed to match DNA that found on JB Beasley's clothing, although, as we're going to go over later, the police used the DNA as like the end-all be-all and I don't necessarily think I think that there could be other things. But anyway, I don't think that not matching the DNA should have necessarily ruled out suspects, but we'll get into that later. The man, who Speevy would not name, left town within days of the murders, adding that investigators have traveled to Michigan three different times to interview that suspect. The man cannot account for three or four hours of his time on the night of the murders and later made suspicious statements to people, but Spivey declined to elaborate on what he meant by suspicious, the man from mississippi.
Speaker 2:In early march 2000 it was reported that a dna sample taken from a man in jones county, mississippi, was being compared to samples taken from the body of jb beasley. But speevy reported no factual evidence known at the time linked the man to the brutal murders of the Alabama girls. Spivey said the man who was extradited from Jones County had been arrested there on an outstanding warrant for the possession of drug paraphernalia issued in Ozark. The man had been staying with relatives in Ozark but left two days after the murders and, according to Spivey, investigators wanted to question him in connection with the murders. And, according to Spivey, investigators wanted to question him in connection with the case. Quote he has been extensively interviewed and DNA samples have been obtained and sent to the forensics labs. Spivey reported at the time but this time we do not have any factual information to connect him to the case. We just want to be double sure he's not involved. End quote. I felt like that Michigan one, although there's very limited information about that one. I felt like that Michigan one sounded odd, like I wanted more information about that one. This Mississippi one seemed like maybe they were just investigating him because of the, the drug warrant.
Speaker 2:The strange confession of johnny william barrentine. This is where this poor guy okay. So at 11 30 on the night of july 31st 1999. At the same time, tracy hollett called her mother from the payphone at the little big store. 28-year-old part-time mechanic, johnny William Barentine, told his young wife he was going out to buy milk for the couple's two-year-old son. Barentine did not return home until shortly before 1 am and, according to his wife, when he came in he was visibly upset. When asked, he told her his car had been hit by a black truck with a Dothan tag near herring avenue.
Speaker 2:In the days that followed, baron tyne would confide to others he knew something about the murders of the two teens found on herring avenue. Quote he just said he thought he might know who did. It said avalin murphy, whose boyfriend, leon jordan, encountered baron tyne. Encourage so sorry Barentine to go to the authorities and collect the reward they were offering a $200,000 reward for information leading to an arrest. Barentine finally took the advice and on September 1st, one month after the bodies of JB and Tracy were found, he met with police for what would turn out to be a four-hour videotaped interview, ultimately telling six different stories, and, in some of them, placing himself at the scene of the crime of the crime.
Speaker 2:According to Ozark police chief Tony R Spivey, barentine initially said that on the night of the killings he had seen a black truck speeding away from the area where the girls were found. As the interview continued, he changed his story several times, finally claiming he'd picked up a tattooed man he didn't know, and the two drove by the Big Little Store. Barentine said the man to whom he had given a ride got into a car with the two girls whom Barentine identified as quote the dead girls end quote and told him to follow. He said they ended up on Herring Avenue where the man got the girls out of the car. Barentine said he heard two gunshots and when the man returned, barentine gave him a ride from the scene and then went home. In another version, barentine confessed to the investigators that the man he'd picked up and given a ride to was actually his neighbor. Alarmingly, barrington lived less than a mile .8 miles to be exact from where police discovered the girls' bodies. This seems to me like a theme with all the suspects, but it's a pretty small area so of course everybody doesn't live that fucking far away.
Speaker 2:Right. Police arrested Barentine then and there naming him the prime suspect and charging him with two counts of capital murder. But there were lots of problems with his accounts. He never mentioned sexual activity and would account that would account for the semen found on JB's clothing and body. The neighbor he implicated had an alibi for the evening and the DNA from the semen did not match that of Barentine or the neighbor. Barentine, whose mugshot makes him look as though he has been startled from a deep sleep look as though he has been startled from a deep sleep immediately admitted that he had fabricated the whole story in hopes of scoring some quick cash. Quote I didn't see anything. End quote. He later told the grand jury. Quote I made up everything to get the reward money. End quote. Quote he says he was there. End
Speaker 2:quote. Speevy said explaining what made Barentine a suspect. This part because obviously this dude first of all was an unreliable suspect. And then they show clips of him being interviewed and the police were asking him very leading questions. Quote he relayed to us about getting the girls out of the car. One of the girls ran. The girls were combative, which that doesn't fit either because they didn't have defensive wounds. The individual placed the girls in the trunk. Two shots were fired. The gunman comes back to the car. Something is in his hand. He drove the gunman outside the city. He returned home. End quote. Returned home. End
Speaker 2:quote. In a September 21st hearing, alabama Bureau of Investigation agent Charles Huggins testified that Barentine was able to describe the girl's clothing and other items consistent with the crime. Speedy said the district attorney, who was present during the September 1st interview, instructed police to arrest Barentine when his arrest was announced at a press conference. Speevy said the police were confident they arrested the right man. Quote. What do you do? End quote. Speevy would say later If you don't charge him, maybe you just let a killer walk out the door. You're between a rock and a hard place. He never said he killed him. That's another thing that, like he never even said he killed him, like at most he said that he was aiding and abetting the
Speaker 2:killer. Barrington was held without bond in the Dale County Jail from the time of his arrest September 1st. In October 18, bond hearing before the circuit judge PB McLaughlin, barentine denied he was involved in the killings, although he told police he watched the two 17-year-olds being shot to death by an acquaintance who had tattoos all over his arms. Barentine told the judge he never picked up a tattooed man and he didn't see anything the night of the murders. He said he simply went to the BP about 11pm to get milk for his little boy. Mclaughlin denied Barentine bond and appointed 36-year-old veteran lawyer Bill Caminos to represent the defendant. 36 year old is a veteran
Speaker 2:lawyer. Barentine's friends and family stood by him, professing his innocence to anyone who would listen. Quote. He did not do it. His mother, faye Barentine, adamantly told reporters the day after her her son's arrest he is not did not do it. His mother, faye Barrington, adamantly told reporters the day after her son's arrest he is not capable of doing it. He has a two-year-old son and he is not capable of doing anything to hurt a child. Camino said his client had obviously stumbled into a situation with investigators that he wasn't capable of handling. Quote. As a lawyer, you need to take what your client says with a grain of salt sometimes. End quote. He continued speaking in slow, measured tones. His hands held together, almost as if he were praying. Quote. But I had a feeling from the very beginning. In viewing the car and viewing the evidence, I said to myself quote no, johnny Barentine could not have done
Speaker 2:this. The police were under intense pressure to make an arrest. Caminos contended and that pile of reward money kept growing. It grew large enough to lure in Barentine. Caminos alleged they started, they questioned and they questioned and questioned for four hours. They started, they questioned and they questioned and questioned for four hours. It's all on video and the questions turned from questions to accusations, from accusations to
Speaker 2:suggestions. Barentine, who had lived in Ozark for several years and was residing at 110 Young Avenue I don't know why they're giving his address with his wife and son said he first went to Speevy several days after the murders to tell him of a rumor. He gave Speevy a name and was told the police had already checked out the rumor and the man Barentine named was not a suspect. Also several days after the murder, barentine reportedly said he and his wife and brother-in-law went to the scene on Herring Street where the car was found, looking for something that might help the police solve the case. Wouldn't that area be roped off? Barrington claimed he was tired when he told the story to police. In the September 1st interview at the police station he said he was interviewed for more than four hours and was told he could not go to the bathroom or leave at any time. He said police quote tricked me into telling the story. At one hearing it was reported that Barentine finished only the 7th grade and a portion of the 8th grade and was in special education
Speaker 2:classes. Delval lawyer Joe Gallo said he didn't believe police, who were under intense pressure to solve the case, would drop charges against Barentine if they believed he was remotely involved. Yet Gallo offered no explanation for Barentine's stories except to say Barentine suffered mild mental. I'm not going to say Barentine suffered mild mental. I'm not going to say that word. The R word, quote, you've got me, he concluded. After it was revealed Barentine's DNA did not match that from the semen found on JB's body and clothing. The judge improved Barentine's bond request. He was released from jail Friday December
Speaker 2:17th. In January a Dale County grand jury declined to indict Barentine Quote. Barentine is living in Daleville now. Camino said at the time why are they telling people where he lives? It's like they keep telling people where he lives. Stop doxing this man and trying to pick up the pieces. Camino said no physical evidence exists leaking Barentine to the murders. Nevertheless, police still consider him, although I'm sure they don't consider him suspect anymore because now they have somebody in jail, speevy said, noting that Barentine is also alleged to have made a jailhouse confession. Police have said Barentine could be charged later if new evidence points to him. So for a while there was no new evidence, no new information on the
Speaker 2:case. In 2015, police got a potential new tip from a true crime blog post that told the story of someone who claimed to know who killed JB and Tracy. The whistleblower was a woman named Renee Crum, in Ozark residence, who in a blog post, was misidentified as a police officer. Renee Crum tells the story that she heard a confession from a former police officer at a party who confessed to being the murderer of the two girls. Renee, who was captured in an interview by a police body camera, admitted that she was at a party with a former police officer who she reported was quote as drunk as Cooter Brown end and quote when he made the purported confession, she claims he told her he screwed up and he was afraid he was going to quote lose his baby, meaning. She said that the former officer had been having a sexual relationship with JB and was motivated by jealousy and fear that she would leave him. She reported that other officers assured him that they would have his back and assist him in covering up the murder and if Renee ever came forward, that he had told her he would quote fucking kill her. She went on to say that if she were called to testify about the situation on the stand, she would perjure herself because, when it came down to the life of the stand, she would perjure herself because, when it came down to the life of the accused who we will get into shortly and the life of herself and the safety of her family, she would choose the safety of her family. She said she had come forward to the blogger because she had had a guilty conscience and it was the anniversary of the girl's death and she was seeing posts about them all over her Facebook. Does she regret it, saying anything? Because she feared for the safety of herself and her family, the police officers in the 2020 episode really brushed off her report. However, I think that her behavior somewhat speaks to her credibility and I guess we'll get into that again more later. In what year is this? 2016, 2017? I'm not
Speaker 2:sure. The police have a genetic breakthrough because of new technology a mitochondrial DNA testing Police Chief Marlowe Walker, who was the chief of police of Ozark at the time decided to try it out after seeing the success of its employment in the Golden State Killer case. According to Walker, he said to himself quote this information would be great, and so the following week I started making phone calls. So Walker sent the DNA preserved in the teen's case file from 1999 to a lab in Virginia with the hopes of finding names that would link to a specific donor. Five months later, in 2019, walker received results and noticed a familiar name on a list of possible matches. I was looking at the list again when I saw the name McCraney. Walker recalled that stood out because I knew of a McCraney in high school. In the hopes of getting closer to an exact DNA match, walker then contacted his former classmate, collie McCraney, and asked if he would volunteer to give a DNA sample. Collie McCraney agreed to help with the investigation and provided a DNA sample to the Ozark Police Department. Walker was blown away by the news he later learned from the lab with the results that confirmed that Colin McCraney's DNA was a 100% match to the traces of DNA found on
Speaker 2:Beasley. On March 15, 2019, police arrested Collie McCraney and charged him with four counts of capital murder, as well as first-degree rape. Walker said that Collie was not a suspect in 1999 and had not been on the investigators' radar. In an interrogation video obtained by ABC News, colleen McCraney denied ever knowing the girls were having anything to do with their murder. Investigators said they never found a murder weapon and they haven't found any witnesses who saw Colleen McCraney with the girls that night. While the announcement of his arrest brought some closure to the local community, some still have their doubts about Colin McCraney's involvement in the team's death. Mccraney's defense attorney claimed that the DNA evidence found in the form of semen only proves that McCraney and Beasley had a sexual encounter In 2023, mccraney was tried for capital murder, with the possibility of receiving the death
Speaker 2:penalty. During the trial, colley McCraney took the stand and claimed he met Beasley at the mall in 1999, a few months before the teens were found murdered. Colley testified that Beasley told him her name was Jennifer and that he gave her his phone number. He said they made plans to meet that night in Ozark and, according to his testimony, the two had consensual sex in the back of his truck Not like he was a truck driver, so it wasn't like a regular truck. He had a rig with a bed, after which he returned home truck. He had a rig with a bed, after which he returned home. Mccraney told ABC News that he did not make the connection between the girl he met in 1999 with JB Beasley, until after he was
Speaker 2:arrested. In April 26, 2023, a jury found Colleen McCraney guilty of capital murder and rape, and he was later sentenced to life in prison. The sentencing finally brought some closure needed for the families of Beasley and Hollett, who awaited more than two decades for justice. Quote I was in shock. Roberts said We'd waited 24 years for this and finally someone is going to be held accountable. Cheryl Bergen, who described her daughter, jb Beasley, as a beautiful gift in an interview with 2020, remembered her emotional reaction to the verdict. When they read Guilty, I fell forward and tears streamed down my face, bergen
Speaker 2:said. Abc News' Deborah Roberts spoke with Colleen McCraney in an exclusive phone interview from his Alabama prison, which was in the episode during which he maintained his innocence. They can call me a cheat, they can call me a dog, they can call me a lot of things at the time, but they can't call me a killer, mccraney said in the phone interview. Colleen McCraney's defense attorneys have filed a motion with Alabama's Court of Criminal Appeals, hoping to secure a new trial. The ruling is expected later this year. Some of the issues is that he was convicted solely on the basis of the DNA found and there's some issues with that. So on this stand they did call that Tracy Combe to the stand, who had previously said that it was a cop and had said had confessed to her uh to having done it. However, she said on the stand that she had previously lied. However, in the previous interview that she had done where she was secretly videotaped by the police camera, where she was secretly videotaped by the police camera, she told them that she was going to lie on the stand. So I think that calls the entire thing into question and to me that kind of speaks to maybe the potential credibility of her story, because if you thought that cops were going to kill you, then I think you would act that way. It doesn't prove anything but it's suspicious. And her testimony she says I'm not right in the head, I have a brain injury which isn't something there like evidence of. She just said that I don't remember. So that seemed really suspicious to
Speaker 2:me. Okay, here's another thing, the testimony of former paper boy, dan Driver, which is very compelling. So Dan Driver was the paper boy at the time of the murders and he claims that he saw the Mazda 929 for the first time around 2 15 am on Sunday, august 1st, parked on the side of James Street around 100 feet away from Herring Avenue, with what he believed. So he claims he saw it three times. I took this part from an article, but in the 2020 episode they said he saw it three times, that he saw it the first time on James Street at 1 am. He passed it, the lights were flashing and it was by itself. Then he saw it again around 2.15 am and he was with his father at that time and I was like why didn't they interview the father? Maybe the father passed, but there was a lot of there's a lot of gaps, lots of questions that I couldn't find answers for and at that time he saw with what he believed was a police vehicle and then he saw it a third time. So driver continued his testimony and said that later, at 2.45 am, he saw a oh okay, so no. It says he saw it parked on the side of James Street I guess this is the time of the flashers With what he believed was an unmarked police car behind it. Driver continued his testimony and said that at about 2.45 am he saw it with a marked police car in front of the Mazda 929, which had its right passenger side door open, and the unmarked car was gone Nearly seven hours
Speaker 2:before. Former Ozark police officer Bobby Blankenship, who testified on Thursday, says he discovered the car at 9 am Sunday morning. Then driver claimed that later, at 7 am, he went back that area and that is when he saw the Mazda 929 on the side of Herring Avenue, which is the spot that Blankenship later says he found it. And Driver says that later, when he read about the murders in the newspaper, he reported to the police and met with an Ozark police investigator in the parking lot of an attorney's office and gave a statement about what he saw. But his statement was never filed and it was lost. Driver says he gave the exact statement 20 years later, after McCraney's
Speaker 2:arrest. During cross-examination, marshall went back over his lifetime with Driver but also touched on what he called a horrific accident involving Driver that occurred before mccraney's arrest. According to marshall, driver was hit by an excavator and fell 20 feet, hitting his head on a rock and putting him in a coma for a time and causing short-term memory loss, and in the 2020 documentary they are very dismissive about and they they were like he's got brain damage. Okay, but he even clearly states he has short-term memory loss and that's usually how brain damage works. It impacts your ability to form new memories, but doesn't impact your long-term memory like your memory that you already have, and so there's no reason that he shouldn't recall events that happened 24 years ago, and so I thought that that was a shitty prosecution move to discredit his
Speaker 2:testimony. There were a lot of procedural problems when they arrested McCraney. In the interrogation video in 2020, mccraney was shown repeatedly asking for a lawyer, and the interrogation officer interrogating officer pretended to not know what he meant, saying stuff like you can get a lawyer if you want, but then proceeding with the interrogation for some time I'm not clear how long because of the way the video was cut. They also made McCraney sleep on the floor of the interrogation room, which is against procedure and possibly illegal. But when the 2020 lady Deborah what is her last name? Roberts Roberts asked the cop about it His name was Lieutenant Michael Bryan he was very dismissive. He was like. She was like well, is that the normal police procedure. He was like well, it's not normal to murder teen girls and stuff them into the trunk of a car, like that's. That's not how that works.
Speaker 2:Like you have to follow procedure, no matter what. And he was repeatedly like asking for a lawyer and like the cop just kept going and like showing him like pictures of like the scene and and um and continuing to investigate him and that's the end of my written notes. But then I also had because I ran out of time to write notes but then I also had verbal thoughts, comments about issues that I had, and I don't think that I'm not saying that McCraney is innocent. I don't think that that necessarily, none of that necessarily exonerates him. But I feel like just the dna evidence alone I'm not sure if that, I don't feel like that is enough to necessarily say that he did the murder, because first of all, they charged him with a rape but the autopsy revealed that there wasn't rape. There was, they just found semen on the clothes, so that's not evidence of rape.
Speaker 2:That could could mean any number of things, right. It could mean, you know, like they said, a consensual sexual encounter. It could mean that, you know, like other stuff you know. But they were saying that he put her down in the mud, pulled her pants down and raped her, and there wasn't. The autopsy would have shown that right. And it didn't, because they were saying there's mud on the inside of her pants, well, there's mud all over her, and so she could have gotten mud on her in another way. But another thing that Well, he could have tried to rape her and he wasn't able to, or that, that that too, that too.
Speaker 2:But the other thing about the mud that bothered me, right, that didn't make sense to where, like, if he got down in the mud, was trying to rape her, whatever, like, like, the girls were covered in mud, especially JB. Like if he had got down in the mud, right, tried to rape her or something, he would have had mud on him too. The inside of the car was spotless. There was no mud, there was no nothing. It was completely fucking clean. So he could not have gotten down in the mud, then placed them in the trunk or made them get in the trunk and then got in the car and drove them to somewhere else. Like he would have had mud. There would have been mud on other parts of the car. The only part of the car where there was mud on was the back of the trunk, where the girls had climbed in because they were muddy, and so that didn't fit with the story.
Speaker 1:And he Wait. Who's the he we're talking about?
Speaker 2:I'm confused, mccraney mccraney, that's the guy who is. Who is the suspect? Like they said, nobody, nobody saw him. Nobody saw him at the gas station. He wasn't on the surveillance footage. He did say he said he went to the gas station. He said he went there twice. What he said is that he, he went there.
Speaker 2:So he said that he met her at the mall, jb, that she introduced herself to Jennifer. He gave her his phone number because he was sleeping around with a bunch of chicks and so he said he gave her his number and they had agreed to hook up. He said he met them at the gas station, the two girls. He got in their car. They drove to another gas station, I guess like a trucker station, where he had his rig. Then him and JB got into the rig, did some kind of sexual encounter, then they left or whatever. He gave them directions home and they left and then he needed a jump. So then he called his wife and they went back to the gas station to jump his truck.
Speaker 2:I'm not sure if he still meant his rig, I'm assuming like what other vehicle, like, but I wasn't clear on that and I couldn't find information about that, but I'm assuming it is that because because that's where you were saying that he did the chicken, the chick, jb, the victim, and the wife corroborates the jumping story. She says that she went and jumped, helped him jump the thing, which I don't know. If that necessarily makes him look more credible, so I don't know why they wouldn't make up that story. If that's supposed to make him look more credible it doesn't necessarily. But either way, there's nothing on the surveillance video to catch him like there's, like there's nobody. There's no, there's no eyewitness account of him being there. There's no surveillance video of him being there. Nobody saw him. Nobody saw him with the girls.
Speaker 1:Um, but as far as nobody seeing him. Is this at the time when they asked, or was it 20 years later?
Speaker 2:no at the time. I mean, what do you mean? 20 years later, they they're not alive 20 years later not the girls. You were talking about the guy on surveillance yeah, like he, like I'm saying they didn't that night. He said he was at the gas, that gas station. Yes, two times.
Speaker 1:He was not, I know, but you said no that you said there were no eyewitnesses to him being there. Yeah, but the police wouldn't even know to ask about them until years later, so I don't know that I would remember anybody being there 20 years there wasn't, even, there wasn't, even.
Speaker 2:They didn't even talk about like interviewing, like the clerk, or they didn't I'm sure they did sure, but they didn't talk about it well, which?
Speaker 1:yeah, they might not. I mean, you can't, you can't do a blow-by-blow like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but if he was there like any, like lone man, right? I would report as suspicious if it's in conjunction with a missing girl. You would, anybody would, not necessarily. I would think so. They report like that that truck and nobody even got out of it, right I?
Speaker 1:mean it also depends on how they question right Like, sure you can say did you see X, y and Z here? Right Like, because it sounds like by the time they got there they already had maybe a suspect or or thought they did right no, they didn't have a suspect when they got, when they were interviewing the clerks no, they didn't have a suspect by then.
Speaker 2:They didn't they're they're the other two dudes that they investigated yeah, they investigated though they those dudes but they would have interviewed the clerks right away, because that was the last they were seen from, because they had not only the phone call right but they had testimony from the mother and daughter that had given them directions that they had been there. So that was like the first thing they investigated.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm not saying they didn't investigate it before. I'm just saying question-wise, you know, once they had one, they could say did you see this person here? Whatever, you know, once they had one they could say did you see this person here? Whatever, right, like, I mean, there's any number of ways they could ask questions where a person wouldn't necessarily say, hey, there is a suspicious person, yeah, you know, and I think it might also I hate to say this, but it might also depend on the gender of the clerks like maybe a woman would point out a lone man, but a man might not necessarily think anything of it that that's possible, especially because he I'm confused he drove a big rig, but he wasn't saying he drove it that night.
Speaker 2:No, he didn't drive it up to that gas station, like he had it at a different gas station like a big rig, like a trucker stop, and then he met them. I'm not clear on how he got to the gas station, but he said he met them at the gas station. They gave him a ride to the other truck stop and he at some point he had some kind of truck trouble and he needed his wife to jump his truck or help him jump his truck. Is is his story so, which the wife corroborated, the helping to jump his truck part. Yeah, although that doesn't mean anything.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure I agree with that. Yeah, I agree with that.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, he admits to being at the gas station, so I guess it doesn't really matter if anybody saw him there or not.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, but I'm there or not? Yeah, yeah, but I'm like, why would you? Why would you admit that if there is no proof? If there's no proof, right that that you were there, why would you admit that if that?
Speaker 1:well, maybe he didn't know that they didn't have proof.
Speaker 2:They don't have to tell you what proof they have and other things that like why did he so readily submit to a dna sample? Why did he so readily submit to a DNA sample? Like why did he so readily submit to a DNA sample? They always do that, some do and some don't. They do a lot. And like when in the thing in the interview when they called him in, he didn't seem to know why he was there. He seemed confused.
Speaker 1:They always do, though, you know. I mean, it's rare that they're like yeah, I know why I'm here, I don't know.
Speaker 2:But do you think that the DNA of his semen, but with no evidence of rape in the autopsy, is that alone? Do you think that's enough for a?
Speaker 1:murder conviction.
Speaker 2:I couldn't find any information like no information about tire tracks footprints. Did they test the dirt that was on her pants? Did they test any of that information? What about the handprint they might have and it's just not in 2020? Like any of that information? Like, what about the handprint?
Speaker 1:like they might have, and it's just not in 2020, none of that stuff or in other places.
Speaker 2:They they said they convicted him on was the dna, and that's what the defense lawyer said as well, that that was the only thing they convicted him on was the dna, and it's mitochondrial DNA at that.
Speaker 1:When you go into a courtroom, if there's DNA, they're not just like DNA done, it's not just DNA evidence. I don't know, maybe the jurors really felt that those other things were not important. I don't know. I don't know. But I'm not saying. What I'm just saying is we can't 100% say he was convicted alone on the DNA, unless the jurors say that Arrested and charged 100% the only direct evidence.
Speaker 2:100 occurred to me, like it occurred to me that like he could have killed her, like with the aid of his wife, like he could have killed her with the aid of that chief of police who was his buddy.
Speaker 1:I agree with you. I'm not disagreeing with you at all, rachel. I'm just saying you can't say convicted based on that, unless the jurors say that honorate himself, but only seem to make himself look bad, which I think that probably his defense attorneys probably shouldn't have let him testify but I'm I'm certain. Maybe the defense attorney told him not to but maybe.
Speaker 2:But maybe they did do right because apparently alab like one of the highest rates of death penalty and he did get life. So maybe there was a token of uncertainty enough Like they tried him in a courthouse that has a Confederate statue outside. Look, I mean, like I get why he is a suspect. You know, like I agree he should be a suspect. I just don't feel like us, since there the autopsy showed that there wasn't a sign of rate. It didn't. That story didn't match up with what the police were saying happened we.
Speaker 1:We should also point out the fact that, uh, the prosecutor gets to decide whether or not charges are actually brought against the person. Yeah, that there's enough evidence to actually charge them yeah so the prosecutor clearly thought that there was enough throughout the whole episode.
Speaker 2:They were like dna is key, dna is key like that other, that other guy, the michigan guy. Yeah, they were like, oh, the dna doesn't match, so he can't. Yeah, like that was like their whole you know yeah pivot point and like it seemed like they couldn't possibly envision that she could have maybe had a consensual sexual encounter. Yeah, I mean, it's definitely possible she was a 17-year-old, like the guy at the time, was 25, which is icky, but those things happened.
Speaker 1:Right yeah. Yeah, no, I agree, I agree. I mean suspect, yes, and I'm not sure he should have been convicted, just like you said.
Speaker 2:Based on that, I don't argue that at all of the paper boy and the the tracy combs individual was so dismissed as being laughable that the police might be involved. That to me.
Speaker 1:Red flags, red flags see, I, I remember this episode and her I would not believe, not, not because I don't believe a cop could do it, absolutely a cop could do it. You know, I know that and I believe that. But she herself, the second she opened her mouth, I was like she's not believable, there's no way.
Speaker 2:Well, I don't know if I feel like she's a credible person, but like why would she be so adamant about not testifying and why, like she didn't want to be on camera, they secretly filmed her? Because she didn't want to be on camera, Like she didn't want her name out there.
Speaker 1:She didn't want I mean she may not want to, because she originally told that to a blogger. Right the story to a blogger. She may have made up that story for whatever reason, and now it's serious and she doesn't want her face recorded. She doesn't want to be on. You know, like she, she just, for whatever reason, decided to tell that story and now it just became too real.
Speaker 2:I also thought it was interesting that the person that she like, the, the, the girl that she said was dating the officer, was the same girl. That was the girl that the dude said that he slept with. Was the girl with the semen and like if those stories were true, like, maybe, like she liked to date older men. Yeah, that's possible, I'm not saying that that's true, like allegedly yeah, like nobody sued me or whatever, but like the mom was like oh, she would never, or whatever, and like parents always say that yeah, exactly like yeah, no, I and and again, I'm not girls who would have.
Speaker 1:I'm I'm not saying a cop couldn't have done it. I'm not saying no.
Speaker 2:And. I just but also also the not not just her testimony alone, though.
Speaker 1:The paper boy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I thought his testimony was far more compelling, yeah, and I was like I want to hear more about him, yeah, and like what happened? Like why wasn't his report filed, yeah, and. And now they're just like, oh, what happened? Like why wasn't his report filed, yeah, and now they're just like, oh, he's brain damaged. And I was like isn't it convenient that all of the people who are testifying this same story have brain damage, right? Anyway, I don't know. So anyway, I'm not saying again like that, that dude is innocent.
Speaker 1:I think that there is the evidence presented such as it was in 2020. And what can be found online indicates that there may not be enough evidence to actually convicted him.
Speaker 2:Exactly. That's how I feel about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that is the problem with true crime shows. I mean they kind of pick and choose and you know they have to follow a story and that's based on what they think their audience likes and all of that stuff. And sometimes that stuff isn't available or you know they've been denied the request to get all of the information from the trial or whatever from the trial or whatever.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's of course. I always want to know more and more. Yeah, more, like you know, and it's like how can I, how can I make an informed decision if I, if all this information is withheld for me, right? Yeah, yeah, you know, and I get, that some of this information is not whatever is supposed to be available. But you know, I'm going to draw my own conclusions.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, because I think about that. Like what was I reading or maybe watching the other day, I don't remember, but oh, the book, our book, good segue. But we'll talk about that in a second. He mentioned it, but also Aphrodite Jones at CrimeCon mentioned it. He didn't talk about the staircase because I don't think it was out probably at the time, but Aphrodite Jones was talking about the staircase and how, that documentary. Conveniently, he had all of the evidence that was presented at trial that led to the conviction of Michael Peterson, evidence that was presented at trial that led to the conviction of Michael Peterson. But he left out most of it because he had a or the documentarian had a story that he wanted to you know.
Speaker 1:But also that one that he was talking about that really sort of kicked off Netflix's true crime one. What was that called? Um, not serial something? The perspective of a serial killer? No, no, no, um it. I think it starts with an s, I don't remember but it's. It was a big one and it led to like a re-examination of the evidence or whatever. But it turns out that they left out important information but made everybody think that this man was wrongfully convicted, but conveniently left out information. And I'm not saying 2020 did that here or whatever. I'm just saying you have to be mindful of the fact that people have an agenda and, as an audience and a consumer of these, we dictate what they want.
Speaker 2:The thing is, I think that 2021, I need to believe that the guy was was guilty, because they emphasize the part. They emphasize the part about JB being raped and it wasn't until I looked at outside sources that I learned that the initial autopsy reports found no rape. And it wasn't until later, like they found this semen on the clothes and then later the police argue that she was raped, despite the autopsy results yeah so well I don't hold on yeah, no, I don't.
Speaker 1:I like I said, I don't deny that.
Speaker 2:Not that there's not other ways to sexually assault, you know, yeah, Besides rape. But I was like this is crafting like a narrative that you know.
Speaker 1:Well, they are a business.
Speaker 2:Isn't everything.
Speaker 1:Exactly Capitalism. That's the thing. We all have to be mindful of what we consume and realize that it's all created by human beings, and all human beings, whether they want to believe it or not, have an agenda and are biased. Okay, so, segueing into our true crime book, the witch of New York, you hand me my copy, thank you.
Speaker 2:What'd you think? Well, I think I thought it was really interesting. I thought that, yeah, I really liked how they were talking about how the tabloids really fucked around with the trial. They were assholes back in the day, yeah yeah, I mean, it did kind of seem like she did it, like they, like they pointed out, yeah, that she probably did it or was involved, yeah, um, but yeah, the way that they portrayed her and the way that they really manipulated public opinion was so fucked up yeah.
Speaker 1:There weren't a lot of ethics. Well, even now, a lot of the ethics are self-imposed.
Speaker 2:It bothered me so much that the only choices were exoneration or the death penalty. I was like if, if you just had a middle ground, yeah, then this jury wouldn't be, so, you know, hung yeah, I mean also they.
Speaker 1:They never should have tried her in the first place in anywhere near where. Yeah, it was done yeah, I mean that was yeah, that that is common sense. But at the there wasn't that law which fascinated me. I didn't realize that it was this case that made that law possible.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was interesting to me. I have little tabbies of the historical facts I didn't know about.
Speaker 2:I was amused and frustrated by their stories of interviewing so many fucking jurors.
Speaker 1:Right, I know.
Speaker 2:But I also was amused by the honesty of all the jurors. They were like oh yeah, I'm not impartial, yeah.
Speaker 1:I know that's admirable, because I don't think that that happens nowadays.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:At all, and I don't know that anybody could, unless you are a hermit in the woods and you haven't seen civilization in 20 years. I don't think you could possibly not know something about a case I thought about that too.
Speaker 2:I was like nowhere. Yeah, the jungles of South America. Yeah, yeah, the jungles of South America, yeah.
Speaker 1:And I was thinking how hard it must have been on jurors for the like the Casey Anthony trial.
Speaker 2:Even, no, actually even I saw a story about how, like you know, these like remote civilization, yeah, in the rainforest of South America now have internet.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, so I know. Nowhere, yeah, nowhere, yeah, jurors fascinate me. So there was this show was it on Hulu or Netflix or I don't know, but they followed. They interviewed jurors of some big crimes, right, and why they convicted or didn't convict, like what was going through their mind, and one of the episodes was on the OJ Simpson trial.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I will never forget how one of the jurors basically said that they made him not guilty because they just wanted to fucking go home. Yeah right, I don't know if that's true or not and I don't remember exactly how we worded it. He might have just been sarcastic, but I remember him saying that and I was like I thought that was interesting.
Speaker 2:I mean, yeah, I mean jury fatigue, yeah, it's a real thing. I can totally see it. I gave props to that first guy for not giving up.
Speaker 1:I did too yeah, well, I liked it. Giving up I did too yeah, well, I liked it. But I was also a little disappointed because I I feel like I was promised that I would get more on poe and whitman right, and those were only short, little yeah, pieces, name dropping all the yeah, the cool ancient dudes yeah um, also, for some reason, I thought there would actually be some witches involved, but he only did it like a little chapter on the Salem witch hunts.
Speaker 2:Just a little blurb.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and my other question, so I wrote down so half of these thingies, the purple ones, are facts about the case, because I wanted to know, I want to see, by the end of the book and all the facts and whatever, do I think she did it or not? Yeah, so my question for you is do you think?
Speaker 2:Well, you're much more organized than I am.
Speaker 1:Do you think Polly did it or not?
Speaker 2:I do think that she did it, although the thing that got me was about, like they said, the motive, about how she knew about the $1,000.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's the motive that bothers me. Yeah, because I don't know what her motive would have been. I mean, even if they were in dire straits, the parents would have given it Again. She knew where the $1,000 were, which would be less bad, right, uh, to take that than to take the jewelry, like it would be so much easier yeah, but it, but I couldn't.
Speaker 2:What I couldn't deny was was about how like nobody could fucking find her. Yeah, on christmas night yeah see my thing.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry for interrupting you, but I just want to. I just remembered and I didn't write it down, so I want to say it. That is suspicious, but when they started talking about abortives and things like that and how she would take them to places, yeah, my initial thought and I still think it's a possibility is one she was either trying to do her own late stage abortion, yeah, or she was taking abortion abortives to other women women and didn't want to get herself or those women in trouble. Yeah, but I'm, because I mean, I think I'm not 100, but I I assume, since abortion was illegal, that probably would have gotten her in just as much yes, yeah, it wouldn't yeah that's true, because I was like that.
Speaker 2:That was what I thought about the abortion thing. But then I was like I was like they already think that she's doing abortion, so why doesn't she just say it well, thinking it, and then her actually admitting it are probably two different things and then like who else would have pawned all those things?
Speaker 1:True, yeah, so I mean, I think she did it too. I just have questions.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I have questions too. I have lots of questions.
Speaker 1:Although I also wonder if maybe the mom did it Right, because she, according to eyewitness accounts, she's the one who was like moving shit around and stuff and hiding things Right.
Speaker 2:Well, part of me, it occurred to me. I was like what if they were all in on?
Speaker 1:it yeah.
Speaker 2:Like what if they like fucking hated like the sister-in-law and they were like let's get rid of her? Yeah, because they like all like backed her up. They were all like on our side, yeah, providing accounts and shit like that?
Speaker 1:what if?
Speaker 2:it was like one big let's kill this bitch right, or I was also.
Speaker 1:I was also thinking what if george hired somebody to kill her, or or that you know Right, because he didn't come out for or against his sister.
Speaker 2:Yep, that's, yeah, that's possible. Yeah, maybe he was like let's kill this bitch.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because I mean he couldn't do it, but Right. But I also think that Judge was right that it you know, if the motive was money, he had been carrying around a shit ton of money. I mean $1,000 is not that much today, but back then that was a lot of money. That's like life-changing money and she's kind of like flashing this cash around?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I also have questions about, like the, whatever this mysterious man and woman, right, but it obviously wasn't the George dude, no, because the son provided an alibi for him, right? And I was also like, what are you doing? Like back your mom up, right?
Speaker 1:He was a kid though, I know. Poor dude. What else was I thinking? There was something else I was thinking. Oh, and I was also intrigued by by was it the second trial where or maybe it was still the first trial where they brought in other experts talking about like that it's entirely possible that the head wounds were done after the fact? Right, the initial guy said it was before that somebody could have like stepped on. Yeah, because I mean back then anybody and their mother was allowed to go right in there. I mean they talked about that. The mother went in while the cops were there.
Speaker 2:I mean yeah, because I that was another thing I was like I don't think that she would have killed the little kid, like no, maybe like, maybe like accidentally, yeah, like. But yeah, I don't think, I don't know. I have a hard time envisioning that she would have been so cold-blooded to have killed, like a kid that she watched and, like, yeah, gave birth to with her own like you know, like caught with her own hands yeah like maybe she was, but maybe she didn't seem like it, from the accounts of her behavior and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's interesting he brought up Lizzie Borden at the end.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Lizzie Borden. I used to think might have been innocent, but then I read the trial of Lizzie Borden and now I think she absolutely did it, because they actually go into her character. Oh yeah, Kind of what a horrible person she was, yeah, and so that wasn't like that. In this case, she didn't appear to be an awful disgusting human being, except by societal norms, but not in personality yeah, you're talking about how, like they brought up like the baby and she was like crying and stuff.
Speaker 2:And yeah, I'm like if she was so cold-blooded about the babies, then like why is this tearing her up?
Speaker 1:Right. Also, the knot fascinated me because it was a sailor's knot. Yeah, Now she did do the oyster stuff, so maybe she does know how to do the oyster knot, but that would to me indicate that it would be a sailor, right? Yeah?
Speaker 2:yeah, is that the kind of thing? Is that the kind of thing that they taught?
Speaker 1:women? Well, I don't know, but they. They said at the beginning that she used to do the oyster the help out and and they said she was very independent.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so she might know that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I mean that could have been her. But I was also like, why, if it was a sailor's knot, why wouldn't they have thought about a fisher person or a sailor?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I like the story about the pie and the gin.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, gin at 7am or whatever it was. Yeah, go you.
Speaker 2:Way to go, polly, yeah, maybe not. Maybe she didn't do it, but yeah, somebody in her family somebody definitely did it and I think, if, yeah, if it wasn't somebody else in her family, I think that they definitely thought that she did it and yeah, like let's cover for her.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I loved the end at the third trial when she's found out guilty and she was like can we sue barnum now? Right, like that's probably not the time to say that. Yeah, and also she got a retraction the only retraction from that horrible tabloid guy. Yeah, yeah, that was fun. Yeah, she does. She seems like a I don't know. She could definitely have done it, but at the same time, I have questions. Right.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's so hard when it's so so long ago and there is so little is known Right, and there probably wasn't that much of it.
Speaker 1:It didn't seem like there was that much evidence to begin with and you're seeing so much of it through the lens of society from then which is hard to parse through sometimes.
Speaker 2:I thought that that one chick's testimony about the scream was bullshit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, alright, so we liked it.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, now we have to pick another one. I know, I know, didn't we have one? We were gonna do.
Speaker 2:Oh, probably. Maybe you have it tucked away in a list somewhere.
Speaker 1:Maybe Should we do a classic, a classic, a classic true crime. Sure, like we could do a short one like In.
Speaker 1:Cold Blood, or we could do a longer one like Helter Skelter, okay, or I don't know. What do you want to do? I have no idea. You have no idea? Okay, let me Google. Oh, I did want to read this. It's not old, it's new. Actually. Long Haul, long Haul Hunting the Highway Serial Killers. By Frank Figliuzzi Ooh, from the FBI's former assistant director, a shocking journey to the dark side of America's highways revealing the FBI highway serial killings initiatives, hunt for the long haul truckers behind an astonishing 850 murders and counting.
Speaker 2:That could be good, or do we want?
Speaker 1:to do one of the ones I bought from crime con oh, we could do that, because we already have those yeah okay, hand me that one. There's some, yeah, there's that one. And then the john walsh one. Do I have that one? Yes, I got you one.
Speaker 2:Okay, sure, little crazy children, a true crime tragedy we could do that one and then do the Figliosa one after that.
Speaker 1:Okay that sounds good, All right, so we're going to scrap the Figliosi one and we're going to do Little Crazy Children. A True Crime Tragedy by James Renner Sounds good, Okay. So I would ask what we're reading and watching. But all I did was read this book, Right?
Speaker 2:Let's see. Did I read anything besides that?
Speaker 2:well, the really crappy shark book yeah, yeah, I've been reading a a shitty shark book called by Michael R Cole. Do not recommend, yeah and yeah. So I read Witch of New York and I read Black Sheep, which did I talk about that last time? I think so, yeah, and also I accidentally gave spoilers to you, so I won't talk about that anymore. Okay, good, and as far as watching stuff, I've been just re-watching some Deep Space Nine, but I've been mostly just falling asleep to it. Yeah so yeah, not much in terms of that, no.
Speaker 1:So, no, no, I've been. Mostly anything that I've watched it's been booktube because it's summerween or was summerween. Uh, summerween is a readathon book challenge, do hickey thingy that one of the booktubers puts on and a bunch of other booktubers do it and then they put out videos of them doing it in the books that they read and stuff.
Speaker 1:So that's what I've been watching. That sounds like fun. It is Because it's vlogging, so they do their lives and again I like to snoop, so Right. So I had fun looking into their lives, or at least what they want to show me.
Speaker 2:I like the lives and stuff I I'm never like available when, like I, I like this nail channel or whatever. Nicole loves nails and she usually does like lives on sunday, like in the middle of the day. Well, right now it's sunday in the middle of the day right here, but usually I'm doing the kids hair right sunday in the middle of the day, and so, yeah, I almost always miss it, even though I really enjoy them.
Speaker 2:And and sometimes she talks about like her dirty books, that she likes doing, which you would enjoy her for that, and various things she likes to bake, and she has a farm with like chickens and a bunch of cats and a border collie. Yeah, so it's very cute, um, yeah, but yeah, I haven't been watching that for a while.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, sorry, nicole, if you're listening you probably aren't, yeah, so we were boring these last couple weeks.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we only got a couple of likes in our last post. I know so Well we'll have to. The magic is waning.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're going to have to, I think, do a little more social media stuff. Yeah, do some teasing or something Teasing just like a strip tease. No, I think that would turn off even more people, right? Just keep posting them okay, like upcoming yeah exactly I don't think anybody wants to see either of us do that.
Speaker 2:No, all right, unless it's one of those like car crash situations we're so bad to ourselves no, but people on social media are very unforgiving they are very unforgiving. No, yeah I wouldn't do that. It would. It would it's much kinder to ourselves to probably not right?
Speaker 1:no, we get kicked off of all the social media.
Speaker 2:If we did a strip, it's true, okay, so Maybe if we do a Patreon.
Speaker 1:Maybe Okay. Is that it then? Yes, okay, so this isn't as long as I thought, so good for us.
Speaker 2:I guess my juicy takes weren't as juicy as I thought.
Speaker 1:So I guess that's it Like yeah, subscribe, download, follow us us, write a review or reviews yeah, and email us yes tell us all your innermost thoughts and fears and we will talk to you next time. All right, bye.
