Details Are Sketchy
A bimonthly true crime podcast, in which two friends share an unsolved disappearance or unsolved case, a crime they're most intrigued by, and talk all things true crime.
Details Are Sketchy
Grants Pass Oregon v. Johnson and the Criminalization of Human Existence
We apologize for being tardy (again).
In this episode, Rachel discusses the possible (likely?) repercussions of the decision of Grants Pass Oregon v. Johnson and our criminalization of homelessness. There's no missing persons case this time.
Our next book is "Little, Crazy Children: A True Crime Tragedy of Lost Innocence" by James Renner, which we will discuss in episode 24.
Sources:
Pohl, J. 06/28/2024, Supreme Court Has ‘Greenlighted The Criminalization of Homelessness’, Berkley Experts Say. UC Berkeley News.
ACLU Alaska, June 28, 2024. U.S. Supreme Court Overturns Grants Pass V. Johnson Ruling.
Institute of Medicine (US) Committee on Health Care for Homeless People, 1988. Homelessness, Health, and Human Needs. National Institute of Health.
Soken-Huberty, E. 2024. 10 Root Causes of Homelessness. Human Rights Careers.
Grace Center, April 2, 2024. The Causes of Homelessness in America. Life Bridge North Shore Community.
Pagaduan, J. 10/09/2021. Millions of Americans Are Housing Insecure: Rent Relief and Eviction Assistance Continue to be Critical. National Alliance to End Homelessness.
Kaysen, R. 01/25/2024. More Renters Than Ever Before Are Burdened By The Rent They Pay. The New York Times.
ACLU Women’s Rights Project. N.D. Domestic Violence and Homelessness.
National Network for Youth. 2023. LBGTQ+ Youth Homelessness.
National Alliance to End Homelessness. 12/2023. Health and Homelessness are Inextricably Linked. Health Problems Can Cause Homelessness as well as be Exacerbated by the Experience.
Vinoski Thomas, E. 06/14/2019. Homelessness Among Individuals With Disabilities: Influential Factors and Scalable Solutions.
State of Washington Department of Commerce. N.D. Homelessness Myths and Facts.
Olivet, J. 10/22/2022. Collaborate, Don’t Criminalize: How Communities Can Effectively And Humanely Address Homelessness.
Petter, J. 02/12/2024. How Finland Conquered Homelessness.
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Yeah, she'd embarrass both of us for sure. People would probably love her. They probably would. They'd be like more Grandma Ruth. Yep, I can only imagine she already enjoys embarrassing me in every other way. Okay, so I'm Kiki and I'm Rachel, and this is Details Are Sketchy A true crime podcast, and this is episode 22,. I believe. Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 2:Yes, we've only got one month to read our book. I was thinking it was 21. Oh God, Wow, that's what I have to read next then. Yeah, well, you'll have a month.
Speaker 1:You have a month to read it.
Speaker 2:It's okay you say that now, I do say that now.
Speaker 1:I mean I say that having read absolutely zero things in six weeks.
Speaker 2:So well, that's not.
Speaker 1:You read the Witch of New York book? Yeah, but that was back in. Was that in July? Yeah, it was in July. I think we finished it at the end of June, though, did we? Oh Well, if I finished it in july, then I read one whole book in july yeah so go me.
Speaker 2:That's, exciting yeah, when did you read mary?
Speaker 1:that was june june was a good month for me for june, one for july.
Speaker 2:No, I actually read four in june. Nice, yeah, one a week very impressive.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what a week Very impressive. Yeah, what a week, a month. But it's true, it actually probably all was in one week. I probably had to cram it all in there.
Speaker 2:I meant like one a week, not a week, oh yeah. Sure, roughly about one a week. If you read them all in one week, yeah, I could see that I used to.
Speaker 1:I used to be able to read like four or five a week. I know you can, but I don't know. These last two years I just cannot. Yeah, sometimes it ebbs and flows.
Speaker 2:That's true.
Speaker 1:I did go almost a decade without reading more than like 20 books a year, yeah, and I hated it. But then I made up for it because then, like one year I read. I only, I think, put like 100 on Goodreads, but if I because I didn't put all my smutty books on there If I put all my smutty books on there it would have been like 300. Yeah, so I think I more than made up for it in that one year, but then I wore myself out, I guess.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, when I had my son, I went like three years without reading. Yeah, about reading yeah, but you have an excuse. I'm just sitting there coloring on my phone. I was like I think my sister gave me a book or whatever. I think I'm. I probably told this story before, but I was like I was like reading and I was like yay, and I was like I'd like to read and jay was like oh, like, yeah, like all these books that I've been hauling around, that you complain about were just for decoration.
Speaker 2:That's funny, Like why do you think they're all so worn down Right?
Speaker 1:I guess we usually should leave our talking for the end, but that's okay. Since we're talking now and we mentioned Twisters twice last time, should we say we actually went and saw it. We got there in plenty of time, Thought we might be late, but we had a good hour or so actually. Had some popcorn, we did. And secret candy, and secret candy, yep, yep. And what did you have? Banana runt, oh no, you had jelly beans. I had jelly bellies?
Speaker 2:Yeah, mostly. What did you have? Banana runt, oh no, you had jelly beans. I had jelly bellies, mostly popcorn flavored jelly bellies. Yeah, I enjoyed having the popcorn flavored jelly bellies with the popcorn. That was a fun experience.
Speaker 1:I bet it was. Yeah, I had a couple of chocolates with dried coconut inside. I had one of those too. I think they're called haystacks or something are really good. They're my favorite candy. Yeah, and we saw it. You did not like all of the country music. I did not.
Speaker 2:I hate country music. I don't care how popular it gets. I beyonce does it or or anything I I'm not. Not in the way that, like beyonce can't do country music, she's a black woman. Black woman can't do country music. But like in the way that I don't like country music and beyonce can't do country music, she's a black woman. Black woman can't do country music. But like in the way that I don't like country music and Beyonce can't entice me towards it.
Speaker 1:It's just not your thing, it's just not your thing. We all have our influences. I don't mind country music. I grew up with it, so some of it was I enjoyed, but it was scary. The original Twister was not that scary. I I mean it did unlock a fear. I didn't know I had the original twister, but twisters just scared me the entire time, like I mean I was, I was there, I had the popcorn in front of my face a few times.
Speaker 1:You were covering your face yeah, oh god, that first five minutes, oh my god it was brutal that I yeah my greatest fears, like my every time. You know how there's all these memes or whatever that go around that talk about how you can tell a millennial is driving behind a truck, a logging truck, because they stay way way far away, because oh yeah because of final destination. We have good common sense, yes, but also because of final destination, oh yeah, but.
Speaker 1:I final destination awoke us to the real dangers of logging trucks, but I um, I also do that when I see a ladder because of twister yeah, the, the original Twister. Yeah Because the so-called villain got it. He was impaled by it. Yes, impalement is one of my greatest fears, along with losing my brain.
Speaker 2:What is that other? Is it the virgin suicides?
Speaker 1:Oh God don't. I can't Like I can't. Oh, oh, mm-hmm. I think about it every time I go near a fence with one of those spiky things yeah. Oh my God, I can't, I can't, but yeah, no, it was scary, it was really scary. It was good. I wasn't expecting much from it, but I thought it was actually quite good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. No, it was very entertaining. I thought it was a little more patriotic than was strictly necessary.
Speaker 2:And that's that's not my style but, as, as Katie pointed out, it is Oklahoma, so I suppose it's apt. Yes, but yeah, I was like there's quite a number of American flags, like like we kind of get it, but but yeah, it was entertaining. Yeah, it was definitely scary at times and yeah, like we kind of get it Right, but yeah, it was entertaining. Yeah, it was definitely scary at times and yeah, like very, yeah, action-packed, like aggressive tornadoes. The only thing I missed was I wanted to see a flying cow. Yeah, there was a chicken. There was a chicken. There was a chicken, but chicken doesn't quite hit the same as a cow?
Speaker 1:No, it doesn't, it really doesn't. Yeah, that poor cow. Okay, anyway, I'm sorry, so we wanted to mention that since we mentioned it twice.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Was Glenn Powell's dog actually in the movie, Because I know he adopted it from the movie but I don't remember actually seeing it in the movie.
Speaker 2:I remember there was a scene where he was looking for a dog. But I don't remember, because I was like, are they going to show his dog, right? But I don't remember seeing the dog.
Speaker 1:Okay, so I didn't miss it then.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, good, I was looking forward to seeing Brisket, not unless we both missed it. No, somehow.
Speaker 1:I want to say have you seen speaking of doggies? Have you seen the press for the new Deadpool Wolverine movie, the only?
Speaker 2:press quote unquote press that I saw, for it was this short video of these very allegedly Christian women who had gone to see it, which I don't know what they were expecting in the first place. And then they, I guess, left the theater early and they posted a video about it, saying don't go and see it, it's written by the devil or something like that. That's funny. And they were upset about imagery in the movie about Wolverine being nailed to an X which is reminiscent of like an iconic like cover, one of the comic book covers.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Where that happens.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but no, I brought it up because there's a doggy there's. I forget the dog's name, but it's um, dresses up like deadpool, and I think it's actually in the movie and it was britain's ugliest dog oh my god yeah, isn't that ugly? Chinese crested? I think so. Yeah, and stressed up like it's dog pool.
Speaker 1:Dog pool is the name. I don't think it's really dog pool, her name's like something else, but anyway, there she's been part of a lot of press and it's really cute. Ugly, cute, ugly, cute. You know the tongue sticking out, anyway. Okay, now that we're done talking movies, we do not have a missing person this week because I succumbed to the summer lazies and didn't do that, but also because school's starting up and I have classes I've never taught before. So I'm gearing up to do that.
Speaker 2:So it's not the summer lazies, it's more like the summer working hard.
Speaker 1:Well, I have had two weeks to do it, but I didn't think about it until today. Yeah, or try to do anything until today, I mean I can't blame you at all for that. I just I can't function If it's over 65, I can't function.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It just doesn't work for me. Yeah, that's why I want to move near a beach, I think at least. I mean, I know it would still be warm, like I know it's still going to be hot in LA, but it's not New Mexico. Hot, yeah, plus there's an ocean.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, yeah, you know a beach so I can't wait for that okay anyway it all gets too much. We can walk into the ocean and get torn away by a riptide or something like that.
Speaker 2:There you go, although drowning is a horrible way to die well, maybe you would get crushed on some coral or something, yeah, first, or maybe we will get eaten by a shark. Oh God, I don't know if I want that either. I mean, when the great white comes up from underneath you, you know like you're a seal. Then it's like getting hit by a truck.
Speaker 1:I hear oh good, so Fun there you go, there you go, oh God, okay, no more shark nightmares please. I still have my cruise to go on.
Speaker 2:Do I do any shark nightmares? Sorry?
Speaker 1:You can do it after I come back from my cruise.
Speaker 2:I just you know I like to poke the bear, proverbial bear.
Speaker 1:I know you do Okay there. I know you do Okay, so you don't have a crime in the sense that most people think of crime.
Speaker 2:You are talking about the criminalization of homelessness, it's true. Yes, yeah, I got a little bee in my bonnet about that. So that's what we're going to talk about. And I mean it is a crime, but it's also a crime that it's a crime, yes, rage inducing, yeah, so we're going to talk about that. The end might get a little fuzzy because I kind of ran out of time to do my notes, but I have articles, I have references, so we'll start going off of those once I get down there. If you're still listening.
Speaker 1:She's going to give me a lot of editing to do this week.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sorry. So today I wanted to go off in a different direction, similar to what I did with my Pride episode, although in my Pride episode we had the nice little story about Gerda Gottlieb and Lily Elby, and that was a nice little story, and this one I don't really have a specific story about individuals. Basically you just get to hear me go off on a little soapbox. And so I wanted to cover matters of the criminalization of human existence through the inherent injustice of our legal system. So I wanted to focus on that through our recent June 28, 2024, grants Pass Oregon v Johnson, a United States Supreme Court decision in which a bleak 6-3 ruling the court ruled that cities can criminalize the unhoused for sleeping in public even when they have nowhere else to go. Essentially, the court ruled that it is constitutional to punish the unhoused for being in that very position. Last year, a Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that criminally punishing the unhoused was a violation of the Eighth Amendment, with the opinion of the court stating, quote with the opinion of the court stating, quote if there are no other public areas or appropriate shelters where individuals can sleep. End quote Grants Pass Oregon appealed that decision to the United States Supreme Court and on June 24, 2024, scotus reversed the ruling of the lower court, erasing any constitutional protection for the unhoused. In the 6-3 decision, the court's conservative judges sided with the city of Grants Pass, oregon ruling that the city's enforcement of camping pans did not constitute cruel and unusual punishment and did not violate the Eighth Amendment.
Speaker 2:In April, the ACLU, along with 18 ACLU affiliates, filed an amicus brief, which means friend of the court brief, which is basically when any kind of interest group like the ACLU or the Heritage Foundation or the NAACP or anything like that will file briefs basically trying to influence the court and their decision with very lengthy pieces of paper, stacks of paper that unfortunate interns have to go through On behalf of upholding the decision of the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals. Basically, this is from the Alaska ACLU site, so that's why they're talking about their amicus brief. Ruth Bolstein, the legal director of the ACLU of Alaska branch, reported upon hearing of the SCOTUS decision. Quote Today's ruling is a bleak and cruel decision that will allow cities to punish people who are just trying to survive while living unhoused. The point about the amicus brief is just saying like hey, we try to stop this.
Speaker 2:Uc Berkeley professors of social welfare, public law and policy also disagree with the court's ruling, arguing that the decision will increase the stressors and dangers facing the unhoused population by causing them to seek increasingly dangerous conditions for shelter and respite. According to Jeffrey Selbin, berkeley Law Professor and Faculty Director for the Policy Advocacy Clinic, the court has green-lighted the criminalization of homelessness, which research shows is counterproductive and inhumane. As the dissent and even the majority noted, state and local lawmakers are not required to go down that path. Oh, but they like to. This case will be a Rorschach test for elected officials. Will they redouble their efforts to provide shelter and housing or fall back on laws that punish people for being homeless?
Speaker 2:In this article, a number of experts weighed in on the potential impact of this decision. So I'm going to go over some of these statements and because a lot of these experts are bringing up various points about basically why criminalizing the unhoused is shitty. Basically why criminalizing the unhoused is shitty. According to Jamie Chang, an associate professor of social welfare who specializes in the sociological and health effects of homeless encampment suites decades of medical and social science research is clear that criminalizing homelessness will increase the pain and suffering of homeless people and do nothing to reduce homelessness With no legal place to go. My prediction is that this decision will drive unsheltered homeless people into the worst conditions to avoid punishment. Homelessness will not miraculously disappear, but people will be forced to find places to survive that are less visible, more isolated and more hazardous. I fear that this will be devastating to the homeless individual and detrimental for society. Scotus is dead wrong that this is not cruel and unusual. Criminalizing people for sleeping in public when there is no shelter available is kicking someone when they are at their most vulnerable. Moreover, there are 125,000 unsheltered homeless people in California, circumstances that are cruel but sadly not unusual at all. This massive housing and shelter shortage has made unsheltered homelessness commonplace and predictable. There is a harmful false narrative that people are voluntarily homeless by refusing help, putting the blame on the individual when California has clearly not built enough housing and shelter. We need to band together to address this massive affordable housing shortage, not perpetuate greater punishment to impoverished individuals and families. Okay, here's another statement by Dr Coco R Sewald so sorry if I'm mispronouncing that name.
Speaker 2:I most likely am Professor in the field of public health and co-director of community engagement of the resource hub Innovations for Youth, as a pediatrician who has conducted community-based research regarding youth homelessness for 28 years. I am alarmed at the Grants Pass decision for several reasons. Evicting people from encampments is dangerous to their health. Research conducted at UC Berkeley found it was correlated with a higher likelihood of overdose for those people experiencing homelessness who use injection drugs For youth. Our research has found it is a trigger for youth to start using injection drugs. Most youth experiencing homelessness indeed, most people experiencing homelessness do not live in encampments. However, those who do are the most vulnerable among people experiencing homelessness. Criminalizing their extreme poverty is clearly cruel and unusual punishment For youth living in encampments, who are among the highest risk people experiencing homelessness and who are high risk even relative to adults experiencing homelessness, as per Bernioff Homelessness and Housing Initiative survey of people experiencing homelessness. This is a tremendous blow. It is also a loss for us as a society, as the decision is a further obstacle to the inclusion of youth in our community. As a physician and faculty member who has had the honor to see how youth blossom when they are finally held instead of rejected, my heart weeps.
Speaker 2:Ryan Finnegan, associate Research Director for Homelessness at the Turner Center for Housing Innovation, had this to say Grant's Pass is specifically about shelter, but I would argue that the underlying issue is the lack of affordable housing. Shelter is an important part of the continuum of services we should be providing people experiencing homelessness, and there aren't enough beds for everyone who is unhoused. In California, there are three people experiencing homelessness for each shelter bed. But we know that just providing more shelter beds isn't sufficient If there aren't pathways or options for permanent housing. If there aren't pathways or options for permanent housing, people are not going to exit homelessness. I'm worried that, as a result of this ruling, emphasis is going to be placed either on criminalizing people who have no other place to sleep, or that cities and states will move away from a focus on expanding permanent housing options. The long-term consequences of that will be more people experiencing the trauma of being unhoused, greater racial inequality and higher public costs from failing to address the root causes of homelessness. Local policymakers don't have to take that path, However. They can still choose to invest in solutions that support the dignity and long-term well-being of people experiencing homelessness.
Speaker 2:Laura Riley, Director of Clinical Program at Berkeley Law, had this to say homeless advocacy approaches should remain the same after the grant's past decision. Most importantly, listen to the experiences of unhoused people and ensure they lead advocacy strategies, as the people who are directly impacted by the increased criminalization of homelessness Keep housing first, the evidence based prioritization of immediate, unconditional and permanent housing as a North Star, and how trauma-informed care and harm reduction practices inform advocacy. The way these approaches are deployed must shift with this new landscape of homelessness that can be more criminalized due to the decision. The decision allows cities to pass laws that punish unhoused people for sleeping in public spaces when there is no other shelter available, with fines being barred from parks and even being put in prison. It is no consolation that some cities claim to enact these laws for public health and safety reasons or that some cities take a light touch approach to enforcement. The result is the same Unhoused people will be fearful of sleeping in parks when they have no alternative and will be further displaced, necessarily caught in cycles of criminalization that will hurt their prospects for future housing and employment.
Speaker 2:We have to continue to expose the fallacy that criminalization laws work to solve homelessness and share impactful stories that show this. We must track and fight proposed punitive legislation that the SCOTUS just gave a green light to with this decision. We must urge and empower legislators with data to work on policy that in fact help homelessness. We must do it all with a dual goal of prevention of homelessness and the provision of housing for all. So that's the end of those statements. I just want to include all of those from a number of professors who are highly informed and study homelessness and work very closely with these populations. And California has a massive number amount of homelessness, not that of course it's everywhere here in the United States, but Particularly there is a lot in California and in other densely populated states.
Speaker 2:Okay, so if you didn't already guess, I want to emphasize that this decision is a bad one. The reason I really wanted to talk about this because there has been an increase in the unhoused population in our own community due to the pandemic, economic hardships, gentrification of the community, a number of reasons, rising costs of living. I mean we're going to get into that more generally because I'm going to talk a lot about what causes homelessness, I'm saying specifically in our own community. Those are some causes that I've seen impact that and it's really disappointing to see the amount of mockery and dehumanization of the unhoused in our community. I've seen a lot of recent posts in a certain group mocking the unhoused for sleeping at the park, for being victims of assault from a house person who violently confronted the unhoused person over the nonviolent crime of stealing a shopping cart and had attacked that person, threw their things around and then took pictures and posted them on social media with responses that encouraged assault encouraging assaulting homeless people with pepper spray when the police failed to arrest an unhoused person for using quote, vulgar language and other vitriol toward the unhoused.
Speaker 2:So I want to discuss being unhoused or being homeless. I realize that unhoused is like a more modern term and maybe a more supportive terminology to recognize that a home isn't the same thing as a house and that you can be unhoused and still have a home. However, the term homelessness is so ubiquitous and is in a lot of these sources, and so I will be using those terms interchangeably, and I do want to emphasize that I understand that home has connotations of human value and so that is something that cannot be taken from the unhoused. So we understand that the unhoused do lack a house, but may not lack a home. So I aim to cover what causes the loss of housing, probably less more briefly, touch on issues like stigmas, like do the unhoused like discipline, more character or work ethic? Are the unhoused worthy of our derision or our compassion. I mean, I hope, if you're listening to this podcast, like probably, like you already realize, this is a pretty fucking left-leaning. I'm pretty fucking left-leaning. I mean katie fucking left-leaning. I mean Katie's left-leaning too. But I'm like way over there and I'm going to seek these answers on this week's episode.
Speaker 2:According to a 2015 annual survey by the US Conference of Mayors, major cities across the country reported that the top causes of homelessness were lack of affordable housing, unemployment, poverty, low wages, mental illness and lack of access to services related to those issues, and substance abuse and lack of access to services related to those issues. So, in a word, issues related to capitalism was just related to those issues. So, in a word, issues related to capitalism. To elaborate on that, there are a number of social and economic factors which play into causing people to be unhoused. According to the National Law Center on Homelessness and Poverty, it can be difficult to gather exact data on the unhoused because of the US Department of Housing and Urban Development or HUD's narrow allowance to define that category. The narrow definition used by HUD does restrict the categorization of the unhoused to a more narrow definition of those specifically living in shelters and public places not meant for human habitation, while the US Department of Education uses a somewhat broader definition that also includes families that are overcrowded or doubled up past the legal capacity that housing laws stipulate out of economic necessity.
Speaker 2:The methodology of gathering data in unhoused communities can also be difficult and potentially problematic, with many potential ethical considerations and concerns. Basically, what that distills down to is that numbers are probably underreported, as methods to collect data in the unsheltered and unhoused populations are flawed, and particularly believed to underreport the number of unhoused children. However, despite these issues, there is still some evidence of the primary stressors contributing to, or factors contributing to, unhoused populations, and one of the primary causes of becoming unhoused is, like we had mentioned already, insufficient income and lack of affordable housing are the leading causes of becoming unhoused. So, according to a 2022 report by Harvard's Joint Center for Housing Studies, 22.4 million American renters are financially burdened by rental payments, with half of all renters spending more than 30% of their income on rent and a record 12.1 million American renters spending more than half of their income on housing. The rising costs of housing impact people from most economic backgrounds and situations, with middle-income renters seeing the largest increases in cost burdens since 2019 and, to bring it back a record number of homeless Americans recorded on a given night in January 2023. According to the New York Times, even as the rental market allegedly cools, with the asking rents falling by just 1% in 2023, but they are still up a staggering 19% since the pandemic. Sia Weaver, a campaign coordinator at Housing Justice for All in New York, reports, quote it's definitely worse than it's ever been. Middle class people, lower middle class people, working class people they cannot afford their rent. The New York Times reports that renters struggling with their sky-high rents and food bills took measures such as skipping meals, driving less to save gas and eliminating social activities. Some renters they interviewed reported having to put expenses on their credit cards or borrow money from friends or family or tap into their retirement savings just to survive. While some of the renters the New York Times interviewed were unemployed and or on public assistance, most of the subjects had full-time employment and held college or postgraduate degrees.
Speaker 2:Quote will this ever end? Will it ever get better? Can I get out of this? Lamented 29-year-old Alex Lareza to the New York Times, who reported he spends 49% of his $55,000 annual income towards rent and utilities for a duplex in North Kingston, rhode Island. It's gotten so bad. Should I eat or should I worry about my heat turning off? Larosa reported that he is behind on his utilities and he has abandoned all of his hobbies as expenses that he does not have the luxury of affording. Sometimes LaRosa reports skipping meals to ensure his daughter has something to eat. Larosa is a defense contractor with a college degree. Quote I never thought that someone who took all these steps would be struggling so much, larosa confessed to the New York Times Next month. From the writing of the article, larosa's rent is increasing by an additional $150. For extremely low-income renters, the situation is even more difficult. 75% of low-income renters have less than half their income left after rent and utilities for necessities include, but are not limited to, food, transportation, medicine and child care.
Speaker 2:The foreclosure crisis of 2018 also played a big role in the crisis of unhousing, with state and local homeless groups reporting a 61% increase in homelessness in 2008. A 61% increase in homelessness in 2008. The National Institute of Health, in their report on homelessness, health and human needs, report that there appears to be a direct relationship between the reduced availability of low-cost housing and the increased number of homeless people. Since 1980, the aggregate supply of low-income housing has declined by approximately 2.5 million units. Loss of low-income dwellings can be attributed to primarily, extremely low rate of replacement of housing resources lost to the normal process of decay and renewal. Each year, it is estimated that approximately half a million housing units are lost permanently through conversion, abandonment, fire or demolition, and the production of new housing has not kept pace.
Speaker 2:For women and children, domestic violence is a significant factor leading to the loss of stable housing, although I do want to note that about 60 something percent of the total homeless population is men. But of the 30 something I forget the exact what the exact something is the majority of those women have been victims of domestic violence. So that's what we're talking about right now. To escape domestic violence, people will often flee their homes without a plan. According to human rights careers, women and children who flee domestic violence without a plan or support system may end up living in their cars, in shelters or on the street. Even those who stay in abusive relationships are at increased risk for future unhoused status, as the physical and mental toll of domestic abuse puts them at higher risk for mental health trauma and substance abuse, which makes them vulnerable to being unhoused. A lack of housing options can also cause women in domestic abuse situations to return to their abusers just for the security of housing. According to the ACLU Women's Rights Project, a 2003 report in Fargo, north Dakota, found that 44% of unhoused women reported having stayed with their abuser in the past two years for lack of housing options.
Speaker 2:Women who are victims of domestic abuse are often subjected to an element of financial abuse as well, with their abusers restricting their access to finances and thereby cutting off access to safely escape. Some landlords have also adopted a zero-tolerance-for-crime policy which allows the landlords to evict tenants when crime occurs in a home they are renting, regardless of whether the tenant is the perpetrator or the victim of the crime. One Michigan study of women currently or formerly on welfare found that women who experienced recent domestic violence were more likely to face eviction than other women. A similar 2005 investigation by a fair housing group in New York City found that 28 percent of housing providers either flatly refused to rent to a domestic violence victim or fail to follow up as promised when contacted by an investigator posing as a housing coordinator for a domestic violence survivor program. Landlords only find out about domestic violence when victims seek justice through police or through the courts, so when victims know that they may face eviction if their landlord finds out. It makes them less likely to seek assistance and to quietly remain in the abusive environment.
Speaker 2:While women of all income levels experience domestic violence, poor women experience domestic violence at higher rates than women in households with higher income levels. Women with household incomes less than $7,500 are more than seven times as likely as women with incomes over $75,000 to experience domestic violence. Women living in rental housing are three times more likely to experience intimate partner violence as women who own their homes. And finally, women living in poor neighborhoods are more likely to be victims of domestic violence than women in more affluent neighborhoods. In fact, women and financially distressed couples who live in poor neighborhoods are twice as likely to be the victims of domestic violence than women in equally financially distressed relationships but that live in more affluent neighborhoods.
Speaker 2:In more affluent neighborhoods, in 2005, 50% of US cities reported domestic violence as a primary cause of homelessness. In San Diego, almost 50% of homeless women are domestic violence victims and in fact, this number is almost probably much higher due to underreporting and the stigma of being an abuse victim or fear of reprisals from their abuser. A 2003 survey of homeless mothers found that one quarter of them had been physically abused in the last year and almost all had experienced domestic abuse over their lifetime. 47% of homeless school-aged children and 29% of homeless children under the age of five have witnessed domestic violence in their families. According to a 1999 report, a 1997 survey of homeless parents in 10 cities across the country found that 22% had left their families due to domestic violence, and among those who had lived with a spouse or partner, that number jumped to 57%. And finally, according to a 1990 study, half of all homeless women and children are fleeing abuse. And I saw another statistic that said 15% around 15% of total unhoused people are victims of domestic violence, which is close to half the number of women, so more like 40%. So that number is pretty similar to what that 1999 study showed, and that was a much more recent study.
Speaker 2:Other overrepresented demographics in the unhoused population include people of color, lgbtqia plus people, particularly youth and veterans. Veterans represent about 11 or 11.5% of the total unhoused population, according to one statistic I saw. So I want to touch specifically on the LGBTQIA plus youth aspect. According to the National Network for Youth, individuals who Identify as Lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer or Questioning have a staggering 120% higher risk of experiencing homelessness experiencing homelessness Out of the 4.2 million unhoused youth in America, 40% of them identify as LGBTQIA+, compared to 9.6% of LGBTQIA+ uh youth. Across the total general population, lgbtqia plus youth are disproportionately experienced housing insecurity as compared to their straight and cisgender peers, and are also at much higher risk to experience assault, trauma, depression and suicide when compared to their non-queer unhoused populations. These statistics are amplified for LGBTQIA plus Black and Indigenous people of color populations, who also experience racial inequalities and discrimination. On top of the queer discrimination, bipoc youth have a 83% higher chance of experiencing homelessness when compared to their white counterparts, with BIPOC LGBTQIA+ having an even higher risk. Heartbreakingly, family conflict, meaning a lack of acceptance by family members, is the primary cause of homelessness for LGBTQIA plus youth.
Speaker 2:And I was kind of talking about this with Jay because it's like, why isn't there a speaking of criminalization? Why isn't there a system to criminalize families that abandon, abandon their LGBTQIA plus minors? Like, as a parent, it's your duty, it's your legal obligation to care for your children. Like, you can't just abandon that legal obligation unless you what is the word? Unless you give up your guardianship to the state, right? So, like, why isn't there? I mean, I know why, but there ought to be like harsher punishments for parents who abandon or disown their LGBTQIA plus or any of their minor children for any reason. Like you can't just disown your minor child.
Speaker 1:I don't know At the same time, you know, if I were 15, 16 and I were gay and my family disowned me. I don't think I'd want to be home with them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I'd rather risk the street. I mean, yeah, I mean that's a hard choice because they're probably not safe. But I'm just saying the parents should be punished in some way, like I don't want that, I don't want the kid with the parents, but I think the parents should be punished in some kind of way for saying it's okay for me to no longer take care of my child because I just don't like the fact that they're gay.
Speaker 1:That's true. I imagine that is a fight that would be very difficult.
Speaker 2:I think that we are going to see more of that. But you're right. I think that's difficult when I think there are so many people that will not agree with that sentiment and think that it's perfectly acceptable to shit all over their kid because they're queer, which I'm like. Show me the fucking bible verse. Show me the bible verse where it says kick your fucking kid out because they're gay, like, abandon your kid and don't take care of them anymore, like there's no fucking bible verse like that I'm sure there's something in the whole testament.
Speaker 1:I'm sure I mean come on, what's that story where, like the angels were like here, rape this virgin instead of having sex with these?
Speaker 2:I mean they like rip the babies out of the wombs of, like the canaanites and stuff like that. But that's like the, that's like the children of their enemies, that's not like your own kids like well, no, that that that bible story that I was talking about.
Speaker 1:The father of the daughter was like have my virgin daughter, don't rape, or not even rape.
Speaker 2:Don't have sex with these men yeah, if it's, if it's, if it's a girl, then yeah, and that story of the go ahead and rape, or what is? What is the other one?
Speaker 1:with. There's the story of the guy who's willingly gonna leave his brother wants to like rape his sister I don't know that one, but I I was thinking of the, of the one of the foundational stories about belief, when the father is told by god to go and cleave his child into and he was willing to do that yeah, I mean yeah, thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. I'm sure there's a bible verse. I'm sure there's a commandment. I mean my god, there's like two whole bible.
Speaker 2:I mean chapters that are on my father used to read the bible to us and I've heard it the whole thing back to back a number of times and I'm trying to think of a verse in which it would advocate for abandoning. I'm sure that there's definitely instances, like you said, in which parents have been particularly callous. Yeah, mostly in the Old Testament, but I don't know if there's any that specifically say or advocate abandon your kid. The main thing I can think of in the New Testament is the prodigal son. Right, and the prodigal son though he's not kicked out by his parent, he chooses to leave on his own with his inheritance he chooses to leave on his own with his like inheritance.
Speaker 1:Yeah no, it's very unchristian to kick out your child because they are different or not straight. I mean the, the hatred that is um embraced by american christianity.
Speaker 2:It's is just mind-blowing it is, and I was going to also make the point that just a lot of this entire mentality right about the unhoused and about the inherent immorality of the unhoused comes down from Puritanism and Calvinism. And this down from puritanism and calvinism and this, you know, idea that some people right the poor right, are like the non-elect and they're. They're dirty, they're sinners. That's why they're poor, that's why they're in this situation, because they're, they're not chosen by god. Right and they deserve for some fucking reason they deserve what they've got.
Speaker 2:And you know, this is a kind of sentiment that has been around, you know, basically since the founding of our nation and it's very deeply embedded in our culture in a way that I think is not even conscious, you know, but it's very much an undercurrent of our society.
Speaker 1:And, on top of that, our foundation is based on what is good for ourselves, not the other. It is based on individualism, not community. It has never been based on community, ever Not as far as I can tell. I mean, granted, foundational US history is not my forte, but as far as I can tell it doesn't appear to be very community oriented.
Speaker 2:You know, and I think individualism is good. To an extent it is good to an extent, but we have way surpassed that extent. It has gone beyond anything.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, but I also would like to point out I mean because I'm sure there are a lot of people who, well, I don't think we have a lot of people listening to this podcast, but those who do listen, I'm sure some of them are probably believers and I would like to say we are both, I think, very aware that there are good Christ-like Christians out there who accept the LGBT plus community, who do good things without expectation of conversion or whatever. They're out there. It's just our personal experience.
Speaker 2:I have met when I was a regular attender of the Quaker meeting. I have met a number of people in the religious community who various, not just Christianity, but there's.
Speaker 2:There's also, you know, the jewish community, the buddhist community we have a buddhist community, a very tiny one, and uh, who do a lot of good. The unitarian universalists in this community do a lot of good. Um. The peace lutheran church, uh, does a lot of good in this community. Um, so yeah, there are quite a number of good religious organizations who, but also individuals, even if they belong to a church or a particular branch.
Speaker 1:That is not, shall we say known for their Christ-like beliefs.
Speaker 2:No, and I know a number of religious individuals as well, who are awesome people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so Sorry, we shit on you guys all the time, but it's just, you know, it's unfortunate that. You are overlooked by the people, who are filled with hate.
Speaker 2:That there is something about religion that can draw out not in everyone, but in many people can draw out extremism and when, especially Especially if they've converted yeah, they tend to be the most zealous, and especially in this kind of political climate where we are seeing an exchange of political and religious, like this political religious interchange.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like a, you know the never mind that we're supposed to have separation of church and state, but whatever theologizing of our, of our politics. Yeah, um, yeah, yeah and yet we shit on countries that are actually based on theology. It drives me, oh my god, the hypocrisy in this country just drives me absolutely insane, and a lot of the doctrine of religious folks.
Speaker 2:I mean, there is a lot, there's a lot of stuff in the Bible, you know there's a lot of shitty stuff. There is some good stuff, and no matter what kind of Christian you are, you're cherry picking, yeah, and so why not cherry pick the good shit, right, and leave all the hateful stuff picking, yeah, and so why not cherry pick the good shit Right and leave all the hateful stuff? Yeah, yeah. But unfortunately that's not what a lot of people are doing.
Speaker 1:Sometimes, I think, the hatefulness gives you a sense of righteousness and it makes you feel important, and that is unfortunate Absolutely. It is really unfortunate, absolutely, and that is unfortunate Absolutely.
Speaker 2:It is really unfortunate, you know, some of it is just really baffling to me how people can say things like God chose America and just like, really like, americanize Christianity.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like there's absolutely nothing in there.
Speaker 1:To suggest anything like that, no, no, nothing in there to suggest anything like that. No, no, I mean, we we created a lot of religion, christian sects, yeah, but they, they came after we have created quite a bit of of lore around that you know as much as as much as those type of christians try to claim you.
Speaker 2:You know strict adherence to the Bible. You know like that stuff is not anywhere near the Bible?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it also amuses me to no end that a lot of these people also revere the founding fathers, but the founding fathers were deists.
Speaker 2:Right, very much so.
Speaker 1:Very much, so I think they would probably cringe at much of this.
Speaker 2:yeah, they were quite concerned about the religious zealots of their time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, very much so. I mean there is a reason that they constructed our government the way that it was constructed, and we seem to be just ignoring all of that well, not we.
Speaker 2:And one thing like I was saying about, like the puritans and the calvinists, you know like our country was built from this amalgamation of religious extremists that basically got kicked out of europe because they were so ridiculous that Europeans could not tolerate them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and they couldn't even tolerate each other. The tiniest bit of difference would just set these people off. I mean, they even exiled people. Some of the colonies were created because the religious zealots kicked out the other religious zealots, the religious zealots kicked out the other religious zealots, yep, or I should say the people who were slightly less zealous in their beliefs. Religious harmony was their main goal. Until you started getting you know, rhode Island and places like that set up.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, and that happens now is happening now both you, you know, with that religious strata and, like I said, the political started with a theologization. That's not a word but, like you know, the, the incorporation of, you know, religiosity, uh, so deeply embedded apart, and not just the polit, the religious right you know, it's in the left as well yeah, it is.
Speaker 2:But yeah, but it's particularly extreme in in the right. But but if you, certainly in the far right, yeah, if you sit those people I mean the right is the far right, in my opinion, the left is the center right but if you, if you sit those people in a room long enough, you know they're going to do the exact same thing, because somebody is not extreme enough for somebody else.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and and it's kind of becomes a contest of who is the most extreme. Yeah, yeah, that's that's why they love Trump. Yeah, yep, did you see that? Did you see that video where he was like I think it was the same video where he was telling people they didn't have to vote again in four years? But he also said, like he was like I love Christians. I'm not a Christian, but I love Christians. Like he just says it and they just completely glaze over that part. So we were at the family conflict. So, yeah, like he just says it. Like he just says it and they just completely glaze over that part. Yeah, so we were at the family conflict.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, lack of family acceptance is the primary cause of homelessness for LGBTQIA plus youth. However, family rejection is not the only cause. Other issues include aging out of the foster system. Poverty shortages for shelter, accommodations and housing programs also leave queer children with nowhere to go. And bringing it back to the domestic violence connection in this community has higher rates of domestic violence victimization as well domestic violence victimization as well. Bisexual women are more likely to be subjected to physical abuse, sexual assault and stalking than heterosexual women. Lesbian and gay men reported higher levels of intimate partner violence and sexual violence when compared to heterosexual relationships. When compared to heterosexual relationships, lgbtqia plus youth leaving home to flee sexual violence in the home is also a common pathway to homelessness and, once unhoused, lgbtqia plus youth are at increased risk for becoming victims of human trafficking. Anti-black racism, white supremacy and housing discrimination also create additional roadblocks and make it difficult for Black LGBTQIA plus youth to exit housing insecurity, anti-gay and transgender stigmas, family rejection and hostile political climates also increase the risk that LGBTQIA plus youth will remain unhoused.
Speaker 2:Other exacerbating factors that impact housing security are health, both mental and otherwise. According to HUD, people living in homeless shelters are twice as likely as the general population to be living with disabilities On a given night. In 2023, 31% of the unhoused community reported having a serious mental illness, 24% reported conditions caused by chronic substance abuse and 11% reported having HIV-AIDS. Conditions such as diabetes, heart disease and HIV-AIDS are found at higher rates among the unhoused population, sometimes at rates three to six times higher than the general population. In 2024, one in 12 people in the US hada substance abuse disorder. However, one in the US had a substance abuse disorder. However, 1 in 5 unhoused individuals experienced a substance abuse disorder. In 2021, 23% of the US population experienced mental illness and 5.5% experienced serious mental illness. In contrast, 31.4% of unhoused individuals reported experiencing serious mental illness. In contrast, 31.4% of unhoused individuals reported experience serious mental illness.
Speaker 2:Schizophrenia affects less than 1% of the general US population. Schizophrenia affects less than 1% of the general US population, but estimates suggest up to 20% of people experiencing housing insecurity are living with the disorder. Veterans who seek medical treatment for opioids are 10 times more likely to experience being unhoused than the general population. People who overdose while unhoused are 9 times more likely to die than those who overdose while being stably housed. People with disabilities in general are more likely to be unhoused. One quarter of unhoused people are reported to have a disability, including physical, mental, developmental, intellectual or substance abuse disorders. Many people with disabilities who work are allowed to be paid sub-minimum wages, and federal disability benefit policies restrict the amount of income disabled individuals can earn monthly in order to still qualify for benefits. When many disabled people have medical needs that are not covered by regular private insurance, disability Medicare is a necessity for their health and survival. Many shelters are not disability accessible and when turned away from shelters due to lack of accessibility, 7 out of 10 unhoused disabled people slept in dangerous locations such as on sidewalks or under bridges, which have increased negative health outcomes. Shelter staff are also untrained to work with people with disabilities, which often impacts those with invisible disabilities, such as autism.
Speaker 2:Criminalizing homelessness is becoming more common, so, while laws that criminalize homelessness have been in existence, recent years have witnessed many states and communities across the United States enacting additional laws that fine and arrest people for doing activities in public that are otherwise legal in the setting of a home, such as sleeping, sitting, eating and drinking. These policies are ineffective, inexpensive and actually worse than the tragedy of homelessness. There is a better way to respond to this crisis. Mayors and other local officials are under a lot of pressure to do something. Anything With shortages for affordable housing, funding that is insufficient to meet the need and a pandemic that has stretched and strained systems, many communities are understandably struggling with how to address homelessness, but blaming, criminalizing and moving people from streets to jails does not solve homelessness or fix the systems that created it.
Speaker 2:Most states 48 states now outlaw daily survival activities such as sleeping, eating, sitting or living in your car. In the last 15 years, there has been a 50% rise in so-called camping bans that make it illegal for certain people to sleep in public spaces, with nearly 3-4, 72% of cities now having such a ban, and these laws are becoming tougher and this Supreme Court decision is allowing those kind of laws to become basically as tough as they want. Long story short, these discriminatory laws aren't effective. They punish people with fines up to $5,000 that they can't afford and jail time. That just puts jobs in jeopardy and sends people back out into the streets with their new criminal records. That will make it hard to find housing and jobs and makes it difficult and sometimes impossible to get into programs that are in place to help people exit homelessness. A lot of those programs that exist have lots of provisions like including that you're not supposed to have a criminal record, you're supposed to be clean, you're supposed to, like have a source of income and stuff like that already, which is a big problem. Some of these laws even threaten to withhold state funds from local governments and non-profits if those camping bans are not enforced. They put governments at risk for expensive civil rights lawsuits and distract from implementing programs and strategies that are both effective and cost effective programs and strategies that are both effective and cost-effective. Such programs include permanent supportive housing and housing first, which is what I'm basically going to talk about or advocate, which is treating homelessness as a housing and health crisis, not a problem for the criminal justice system to solve.
Speaker 2:Criminalizing homelessness is very expensive and it can cost three times more money to enforce anti-homelessness laws than to find housing for people who don't have it. Criminalization is a waste of time for police officers, who should be getting guns off the street, not moving people around them. Criminalization just fills up jails with people who are more likely to be victims of violent crime than the perpetrators of violent crime and with people who need treatment, which jails are not equipped to provide for mental and substance use disorders. And, most importantly, criminalization does not reduce the number of people experiencing homelessness. It breaks connections people had made with providers trying to help and exacerbates homelessness and the conditions that lead to it, such as health problems and racial disparities.
Speaker 2:Every year, well over a million people experience homelessness in the United States and, for the first time, ever more individuals experiencing homelessness are living outside, on the streets or in their cars than are staying in shelters. People just don't have anywhere to go. Housing is too expensive. There aren't enough shelter beds. In no US state. Can anyone work full-time for minimum wage and still afford rent for a modest two-bedroom apartment? For every 100 extremely low-income renters, only 36 affordable housing units are available. Where are the rest of the people supposed to live? Many shelters are full. Many shelters are full and some have requirements that ban people if they're not sober. Other shelters force people to part with their belongings, pets or significant others if they want to sleep indoors. So there is a better way to respond to homelessness when there results in fewer tents, more people in homes and more cost savings than starts with collaboration, not criminalization.
Speaker 2:Homelessness is a public health and housing crisis and their response should be driven by solutions that ensure housing and wraparound support, from healthcare, including mental and substance use treatment, to job training and education. This requires constant communication across agencies, sectors and jurisdictions. It also needs elected officials, businesses and the faith community and people experiencing homelessness to be involved in policymaking. There is no one-size-fits-all solution, but best practices have emerged After studying community responses and collaborating with federal agencies in the US Integrity Council. Integrity council on homelessness creates several principles for addressing encampments, the most visible form of homelessness that has intensified the pressure pressure to criminalize. If a community takes time and makes investments to implement these principles, more people can move off the streets and into homes, and the main thing is to connect people as rapidly as possible to housing or a low barrier shelter if housing is not immediately available. So, by embracing housing first, which is based on this Finnish program, instead of locking people up for struggling to survive, one city saved 2.44 million and housed 1,000 people in a single year.
Speaker 2:While housing is the immediate solution, it's not the only solution To solve homelessness. We must provide people with voluntary supports. They need one, including mental health care and substance use treatment. So it goes on like that, but basically Don't have a lot of time, but I wanted to touch on, yeah, what Finland is doing, and they have reduced Homelessness by something like 60 to 80 percent Different sources of different figures and they have.
Speaker 2:Their goal is to reduce. It's difficult to get exact figures Because people hide the fact that they're unhoused and couch surf and stuff like that. Is basically what one article said. Their goal is to eradicate homelessness by 2027. And they have made pretty significant inroads towards doing that.
Speaker 2:And what they've done is just converted pre-existing housing, which the US has tons of unused housing and they've just converted pre-existing housing such as like empty student dorms, empty apartment buildings and stuff like that into housing, modest housing for people who were previously homeless.
Speaker 2:So they get a small apartment, you know their own small private space and they get to move in. And that community also has like resources right in hand for like like medical care, substance abuse treatment, counseling and group therapy and all of that stuff and it has an over 80% success rate and, yeah, it's pretty fucking awesome. Program is like I said, a lot of US programs have all these prerequisites for people to get in they have to be clean, they have to have jobs and income, they have to do this, they have to do that, they have to have a clean record. And basically Finland is saying no. The term says housing first we get people into housing and then, when they're secure, then they have, they have the space, they have the opportunity, they have the resources to fix these other issues and it's extremely effective. And now Denmark is is doing the same thing and having similar results.
Speaker 2:It's, it's really pretty awesome. Okay, so I need to pretty much wrap it up. Um, I wanted to go over some other stuff, like I kind of touched on it with some like myths and and stuff like that about homelessness. Like I kind of touch on that, like how people think that a lot of homeless people are perpetrators of violent crime and they're not.
Speaker 1:They're more likely to be victims.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, they're more likely to be victims. They're all homeless people don't have jobs, when actually, like something around 40% actually do have jobs. That story about that defense contractor blew me away in how, yeah, that's good money, yeah, and yet he was paying 50% in rent. Yeah.
Speaker 1:It should not cost that much to live. Yep, by virtue of the fact that you are a citizen of a country, should mean that your government takes care of you, and it is unfortunate that there are so many people who claim to be patriots and who claim to believe in God and who claim to be good people, who are?
Speaker 1:willing to let their fellow citizens be impoverished or go without affordable Medicare. It just it baffles me by virtue of the fact that you are a human being. It just it baffles me by virtue of the fact that you are a human being. Yes, yes, but I mean, if we're looking at it in terms of yes, being a human being should be period, dot, end of sentence. But just putting it in more of a political perspective, you would think that everybody would be down for everybody being able to afford their shit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, you know, and people also with these people that I was talking about with the vitriol, about the unhouse, oh, my tax dollar this and my tax dollar that, that people you know who are not citizens also pay a ridiculous amount of taxes. Yes, and so I'm not saying like you know, with the connection with the unhoused, but in terms of like people also do that with health care as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I know they do a lot of things.
Speaker 2:They're like we don't want, you know, immigrants getting our Medicaid so that they can get free health care, and blah, blah, blah yeah.
Speaker 1:Yes, but yeah, it just, it boggles it just the hatred and the self-righteousness that people have, and I and I I realize that I'm acting self-righteous myself right now, but I think there's a difference in the sense that the people who say those nasty things I don't wish them ill. I would like them to change their minds. I would like them to grow a heart but, I don't wish them ill.
Speaker 2:Whereas people like that actively wish people ill, absolutely, yeah, yeah, and it's really yeah, people were actively wishing that individual who got their clothes thrown around ill. Or another post it was about an individual who swore at somebody in a shop and the shop manager or the work cashier I'm not sure what they were wanted the police to arrest that person for having sworn at somebody else. Yeah, and was very incensed when the police didn't arrest them. Yeah, and yeah, somebody else was like just pepper spray, the unhoused person that is, yeah, I don't understand that and it's, yeah, it's, it's.
Speaker 2:I just can't with that yeah, no, I can't either.
Speaker 1:I I don't understand wishing anybody badly. I I don't.
Speaker 2:I don't understand the desire to hurt people and people are like, oh it's, it's so unsafe and and, like we mentioned before, it's it's not like homeless people are not. They're not more violent than anybody else. And I walk, take the bus all over town.
Speaker 2:There's typically quite a number of unhoused people on around the bus because now the bus is free right fucking awesome that's one awesome thing that we do do here and like you know the worst, the worst parts might you know somebody is delusive and maybe they're like yelling or ranting, or maybe somebody smells bad because you know they need a shower, but like, give them a little grace, like they don't have access to that, like people don't enjoy smelling bad, Like people don't enjoy smelling bad.
Speaker 2:Exactly, in fact, one of these articles about the Finnish system and they were talking interviewing one gentleman who was a recipient of the program and he said when he first got into the program like he would shower up to 10 times a day yeah. Because it was just so fucking awesome that he could do that.
Speaker 1:I know that's yeah. No, I know, I. I mean I I was lucky in the sense that I was in a camper van for vacation, right yeah, in australia. But yeah, going even a day without a shower was so disgusting I I can't imagine going even longer.
Speaker 2:When it's hot and it's dusty and it's just unpleasant. And then people make it difficult for them to clean up in bathrooms and stuff like that. Make it so that unhoused people can't use public restrooms.
Speaker 1:Okay, let's do a quick. I mean, we already said, I didn't read, you read yes.
Speaker 2:I read a number of things.
Speaker 1:What is in the interest of time? What was the one that you enjoyed the most?
Speaker 2:I think the poem is where the bodies are was pretty interesting, although I did guess who was the guilty person pretty early on, so but it but yeah, that was fun to see the different whoops, to see the different povs. I like that, um.
Speaker 2:And the sand book I thought was pretty uh, like innovative, like it was a little bit like a different kind of take with like, uh, like a post-apocalyptic world covered in sand, and these people like use kind of magic scuba suits, kind of things to dive through like deep sand dunes, and that was pretty neat, yeah. So those were both pretty good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I found books I would like to read. You've read Victor LaVille, right? Lone Woman yes, I did. And Changeling. I read Lone Woman. I haven't read Changeling. Yeah, I haven't read anything by him, but I found a book that I think is right up my alley, written by him. Why is my phone being weird? Called Big Machine and it's about Is it a dildo?
Speaker 1:Darn. No, but it involves a cult survivor, uh, paranormal investigators who are also former addicts and petty criminals. Okay, cool, so that just sounded like fun. Should we put that on our list? We should put it on our list and I swear, I swear to god I don't believe it that I will have Bad Cree done. Okay, I will have it done. I will have it done this week, I promise. I know that you have a hard time remembering things, but once in the morning and once in the evening, tell me read Bad Cree.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:And then I'll remember, I'll put down my phone. I'll try and set an alarm to remember. I mean, you'd think I would remember my song and every time I go I have it on my bed stand.
Speaker 2:One of the problems, though, is I get so many notifications for just like random shit. Yeah, no.
Speaker 1:I know I don't even look at mine anymore. I have it on my bed stand so that I will pick it up and read it. But then I'm like, oh, I have this free picture to color today. I'm going to go do that. I hear you and then I know I need, you need to go. But I got really excited about this little game that really you don't do much of anything. It's called Lifely Island and it's Japanese. Is it like cozy core, kind of?
Speaker 1:It's very cozy, and so you get a home which is kind of a humanoid type thing, and you get a little lively that has been constructed in a lab and you have to take care of the lively and you can decorate the island and decorate the home and all of this stuff and basically all you do is you shower it, feed it and make it poop so that you can get diamonds out of it, which is currency, and then you help other people by watering their trees and that's it.
Speaker 2:You should send me the link.
Speaker 1:I will.
Speaker 2:It sounds like a wonderful waste of time.
Speaker 1:It is a wonderful waste of time and it is very soothing.
Speaker 2:Facebook was advertising Tamagotchis to me and I was so tempted, oh I know, oh my god, I saw one at barnes and noble.
Speaker 1:They are so insanely expensive like. They were like what? 10 bucks back in the 90s? Yeah, they're like double that now. Wow, well, at least the one at barnes and noble was. But yeah, sounds about right, yeah, yeah, I'm kicking myself for getting rid of my tamagotchi. It had still been working for like a decade after I got it mine oh, what a turd.
Speaker 2:Yeah, was it, stephanie no, it was laura, oh, I was gonna say she thought I let her cat out. But he like fucking got out all the time and I didn't let him out. I'm pretty sure he escaped out the window, but she retaliated by the Tamagotchi. Yeah, she like smashed my Tamagotchi.
Speaker 1:So you were the Joe to her, amy, yeah.
Speaker 2:And it was a Tamagotchi angel too. It was like one of the little angel ones. Aww, those are rare.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I don't remember what mine was. I think I just let it go.
Speaker 2:I'm 1000% sure that she's not listening to this because I don't even talk to her anymore, but if she is, you owe me a Tamagotchi angel. Thank you.
Speaker 1:Okay. So yeah, that's it. I know we gotta go because we're recording very late. Yes, um and uh. Next time is me, two more episodes from now. So basically that's like the first week of september I believe will be our book, real quick yeah, yeah, we'll be our book episode, and that is little crazy children by James Renner. Uh, we met, I met him at crime con. Is it about my children? I don't think so. Okay, um, all right.
Speaker 2:So find out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, so we will talk to you next time. Bye, bye.
