Details Are Sketchy
A bimonthly true crime podcast, in which two friends share an unsolved disappearance or unsolved case, a crime they're most intrigued by, and talk all things true crime.
Details Are Sketchy
Spiritual Warriors: The Cult of James Ray
In this episode, Kiki brings us the story of cultist James Ray and the three deaths in his Arizona sweat lodge. Rachel brings us the disappearance of Mehki Marcelo Saenz.
In the next episode, we'll discuss the book "Little, Crazy Children: A True Crime Tragedy of Lost Innocence" by James Renner.
Sources:
Mehki Marcelo Saenz:
National Center for Missing and Exploited Children
If you have any information please call the Mesa Police Department at 1-480-644-2211.
James Ray (Victims - Liz Nueman, James Shore, and Kirby Brown):
Deadly Cults (Season 2 Episode 1) - Spiritual Warriors
Socials:
Instagram: Details Are Sketchy - @details.are.sketchy
Facebook: Details Are Sketchy - @details.are.sketchy.2023
Instagram: Kiki - @kikileona84
Instagram: Rachel - @eeniemanimeenienailz
Email: details.are.sketchy.pod@gmail.com
I'm Kiki and I'm Rachel, and this is Details Are Sketchy A true crime podcast and we are hopefully going to be more with it. Yep, right now.
Speaker 2:We've been out in the sun for like two and a half hours, so yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:My battery wouldn't start, and so we were waiting for the AAA folk to come.
Speaker 2:Apparently, it's been a busy day, it was almost like an episode of Better Call Saul. We would have had to crawl through the desert on our hands and knees. No, we were in the city. I'm just kidding about that one.
Speaker 1:It felt like it. I was ready to hitchhike home.
Speaker 2:It did feel like it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, alright, so Rachel's got the missing person today and then I got the main case and then Rachel will fill in the details after my main case and then, as always, we'll maybe gossip a little. I don't know if we have that much to talk about. I didn't do anything. I've been reading some books. Okay, good, you'll have something to talk about. I can bitch about the vet for an hour, or not the vet. The vet was perfect, it's the cat that wasn't.
Speaker 2:It's the capitalism.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Which is not the vet's fault, but we'll talk about that later.
Speaker 1:Oh, Jesus Christ. Yeah, you reminded me of Bill. We'll talk about that later.
Speaker 2:Yep, okay, hold our complaints until capitalism, until the end of the true crime discussion. Okay, alright. So my missing person is a runaway juvenile. I'm not sure if I'm saying his name right, maybe McKay Sands. It's spelled M-E-H-K-I and the last name is S-A-E-N-Z. His age is 16, male. He's African American, hair is black, eyes are brown, he's got locks in the picture. Height is 5'7", weight, 150 pounds, and he was last seen wearing a tank top and khaki pants. That's so descriptive that could be anybody.
Speaker 2:Mechie was last seen on 8-24 in the afternoon leaving his residence on foot in the area 400 South Dobson Road in Mesa, arizona. Ooh, that's fucking hot. Oh yeah, hotter than here. Yeah, yeah, it is, and it's pretty fucking hot out here, so hope you're okay. So he has not been seen or heard from since, and so they're asking you to contact the Mesa PD if you have any information regarding this investigation. And I have a little bit more information about his disappearance after our case. So there's a nice picture of him. He looks like a happy young man and hopefully he's okay. Yeah, so it's like I said, it's really hot in arizona, so maybe he's just staying with a friend or something.
Speaker 1:Let's hope so. Okay, so my case is on the deaths of three people in outside sed, Arizona and the Sweat Lodges about 15 years ago. I'll get their names in a minute. The perpetrator was James Ray. Yeah, and we'll talk about why he's annoying in a minute. We're going to start off in Sedona. We're going to start off in Sedona. According to the Sedona's Tourism Bureau, the city has a worldwide reputation as a spiritual mecca and energy hotspot. There's a whole section on. They use the term vortexes, but I believe the actual pronunciation should be vortices.
Speaker 2:I follow this essential oil brand and they have really nice essential oils. They use some artists and distillers and stuff like that. So if you're into nice smelly smells, then they have some really good essential oils. But they have a pretty crunchy roll angle about it and, yeah, like white granola type of new agey type stuff. Yeah, very much so. So when you said that it was a spiritual mecca, I immediately thought about that. Yeah, because they're like chakra alignment, all this stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah you like respectfully y'all are super white yeah just wait.
Speaker 1:Okay, so there's a whole section on vortices. Apparently, there are numerous types and a vortex site, in case you don't know, are enhanced energy locations that facilitate prayer, meditation, mind-body healing and exploring your relationship with your soul and the divine. The Sedona vortices are thought to be swirling centers of energy that are conducive to healing, meditation and self-exploration. These are places where the earth seems especially alive with energy, and the four best known are found at Airport, mesa, cathedral, rock, bell Rock, and I believe it's pronounced Boynton Canyon, b-o-y-n-t-o-n. So anyway, that's kind of in the area of where this takes place. So between Sedona and Cottonwood is Angel Valley, where people go on spiritual retreats. On October 8, 2009, there was a 911 call for emergency responders to go to Angel Valley Retreat Center. There were multiple people who needed help. Deputy Craig Bullen said he thought it was a mass suicide at first because he had never had a call where that many people needed assistance and, given the reputation of I probably right some cults, I was.
Speaker 1:I immediately would also think that yeah, I would have immediately thought back to heaven's gate. Yep, so, um, he said that he arrived. There were about 50 to 60 people milling around, the fire department was working on some, there were people lying down on the ground also waiting to be worked on, and a helicopter had already landed and another one was waiting to land. Ross Dixon was the first detective on the scene and he could see a large dome covered in tarps which would be the sweat lodge. He said he saw women with their heads shaved walking around in a daze, so he also initially thought that it had to be some kind of cult. Yeah, yeah, I thought of what's that one that makes them shave their heads in California? Is that Sinon?
Speaker 2:You would know better than me. You are the cult expert.
Speaker 1:Resident cult expert. I wouldn't say I'm an expert I would.
Speaker 2:Of the two of us, you are the resident cult expert.
Speaker 1:Okay, I will take the title. He was told that several people were in the hospital and three people had died. The three people were liz newman, 40, james shore, 40 and kirby brown, 38, and that it involved a sweat lodge. It was a representative of our age range. Yes, I know. Yeah, two of them are my age. It's depressing. A sweat lodge is a low, dome-shaped or oblong hut made from natural materials that is used for ceremonies that involve containing steam. They are generally part of the spiritual practices of some indigenous and Native American groups. In this particular sweat lodge, according to the practitioners, there were heat rocks in the middle of it and then they would pour water over them to release the heat, and this is somehow supposed to enlighten the people in the sweat lodge.
Speaker 2:Are there drugs in the steam?
Speaker 1:We'll get there. It was the final event of the spiritual warrior retreat. I'll talk about that in a second. So the investigation began with Diskin interviewing everybody he could find. He started with the man who generally facilitated heating the rocks, or I guess he was heating the rocks this time. I couldn't really understand what he said. The man said that he worked at angel valley and had conducted several sweat lodges for several different groups, and the leader of this particular group was a man named james ray. So let's talk about him for a bit. James ray was something of a celebrity at the time. He was passed off, or passed himself off, as a self-help guru.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:He was involved with the film the Secret. Do you remember that? No, okay, we'll talk about it in a second, which in itself was a self-help phenomenon. Dvd sales in the US alone reached $65 million, and I remember when this thing came out I didn't at the time actually know it was like a DVD thing, because there was a book that went with it and I worked at the used bookstore and so that book would come in and go out all the time during that.
Speaker 2:Maybe I vaguely, like I remember different, like self-help, like crazes, yeah, but I largely ignored them because I was like this is all bullshit I don't think you could.
Speaker 1:You may not know of it, but I know you've seen the book. It's still being sold and they just had it front and center at barnes and noble. Not too long.
Speaker 2:Of course they did yeah okay, so anyway, let's see.
Speaker 1:Uh, so, for those of you that don't know what the secret is, or if you need a refresher, it is based on the law of attraction. Essentially, your thoughts dictate reality. Now, that concept is still part of the self-help genre, I think. Sometimes the law of attraction gets called manifestation or manifesting Very similar ideas. Okay, so the secret is what made James Ray famous. Now, I want to point out that he did not write it or officially come up with it. He was just one of the people who were part of it. So Melissa Phillips was a follower of James Ray.
Speaker 1:Lisa Phillips was a follower of James Ray. She said she saw him first on the Secret and then on both Oprah and Larry King and, for those of you who are young, out in the audience back in 2009,. That was like that made you the it person if you were on Oprah and Larry King. She believed that he must be something pretty great if he was on those shows. So at the time, she was divorced and her parents had just passed away and she began to feel like she wanted more from life, and James Ray promised that if people went through his course, he would help them change their lives. She said she really believed what he said was true and that her life would change.
Speaker 1:Connie Joy, another follower, said she had also seen him on the Secret. She and her husband had wanted to expand their spiritual experience. She said he was very personable, very charismatic, two very big red flags and that he could read people. Well, I would think, right, yeah, uh, maybe not, maybe that maybe those are just beige flags. He would say, now, this is a big red flag. Anybody who calls themselves kahuna and they are not hawaiian is a fucking asshole that's not good.
Speaker 1:um, he said that he was trained in Hawaiian spiritual practices. Well, that's what I'm saying All of this bullshit.
Speaker 2:It's all based on cultural appropriation.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So he said he was trained in Hawaiian spiritual practices, that he was a shaman and trained by Native Americans to run a sweat lodge. So they thought, because he had all of this experience and all this training, that he was worth the money he charged. And I will get to the money in a second. So the core of James Ray's teaching is that you can control your destiny and that he can show you how to do that. He had what he called the journey of Power.
Speaker 1:It was constructed like a pyramid. It was five main events, ending in Spiritual Warrior. Each event got more and more expensive, from the very first free event to the $10,000 Spiritual Warrior event which was the ending. Of course it's not going to be the actual ending. I'm sure he had something else to sell them. There's no way. There's just an end. The very first course on the pyramid was called the harmonic wealth weekend. So this is again all based on manifesting wealth, right, uh. Then creating absolute wealth. Then practical mysticism, which when connie went said, she said it was in tahoe and um, that was the one where you did the fire walking exercises right. Then you had modern magic and then the final one was spiritual warrior.
Speaker 2:What's the difference between modern magic and like ancient magic? I don't know Is that the other category of magic?
Speaker 1:I don't know the events were programming people to accept the instructions of James Ray, even if he was doing so, even if doing so was personally detrimental. And that's exactly it. It's all conditioning right From the very first go. So each event had a physical challenge, like breaking boards or bricks with your hands walking over hot coals, putting your hand into an aquarium of snakes swinging through trees. He was essentially simulating having a spiritual breakthrough by bringing people to the edge of what they could handle physically. So another way of saying that is he basically caused a breakdown and called it a breakthrough, a spiritual breakthrough. Right, connie said that everyone would say things like, no, I can't do that, I can't walk on hot coals. And then he would say, yes, you can, you can do it. And then you would do it and you'd realize that you were wrong. So again, in other words, he'd make you believe that his judgment was better than yours. So conditioning, melissa said. He made himself sound very wise and authoritative, so she really didn't question him.
Speaker 1:Her very first event was in 2007 in Las Vegas. She said the event had about 12, sorry, 2,000 people. It was three days. There was lots of music, bright lights and a lot of activity you would journal and get into groups and you would talk, which I don't know sounds like a nightmare to me. You would be surrounded by enthusiastic people who were all happy to be there. She said, doing all those challenges were thrilling and addictive and if you led a quiet, boring life, then you felt empowered because you did something you didn't think you could do. She said quote there was a great fear that you would disappoint him if you weren't able to accomplish things and you didn't want to be singled out. End quote. So, in other words, I think he would probably embarrass you or shame you in front of everybody. Group shaming is such a great tactic for a cult.
Speaker 1:Right, according to her spiritual warrior, was a spiritual endeavor so that attendees could get in touch with who they are and what matters. According to his teachings, you are either a placeholder in life or you're growing. And if you're not doing things that are scaring you a bit or challenging you or pushing you outside of your comfort zone, then you are not growing. And if you're not growing, then you're a placeholder. So that's the mindset of the people who are in that sweat lodge. Right, you've just paid $10,000. You've already done a week worth of shit. You've probably shaved your hair. You don't want to be shamed, you don't want to be a placeholder, you don't believe in yourself anymore because he's made you believe that his judgment is better, right? So Diskin said that James Ray Sounds about religion. Well, yeah, it's a. Yeah, it's, it's a it's it's religious cult in self-help. Yes, uh, what do you want to call it? Clothing?
Speaker 1:it's all the same genre yeah, it's just that some are a little more benign than others. I know you don't agree with me, but I I mean more in the terms of self-help, like I mean. There there's the very basic things that are good, things like just reading like a generic, whatever self-help book.
Speaker 1:That's a little bit different, yeah, although probably a waste of money yeah, although sometimes you know I'm I'm not a big self-help person, but I have done a little bit of it, mainly because I get told to do it by not my current therapist but former ones better and shit like that.
Speaker 1:Then I guess it's not well, it's not just about feeling better, but sometimes you don't think about the simplest things making a big difference, right. Like you don't think about what a things making a big difference right, that's true. Like you don't think about what a difference making your bed will make in your day, you know. Or just getting up and brushing your teeth, right? Yeah, doing a small habit can change your life significantly.
Speaker 2:Sometimes you just need somebody else to tell you that I think Katie needs to write a self-help book, you know what I probably could write?
Speaker 1:a pretty good one. Yeah, that's true, you would make a lot of money. There you go. I'd have to lie about my credentials, though Rocket to the stars, just like what's her face.
Speaker 2:I already forgot her name Beatrix. Beatrice, no. Who wrote the Glass Alice book? Beatrice Sparks, sparks, yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't want to be that horrible person. Yeah, no.
Speaker 2:No, but I'm saying she lied about her credentials. Oh yes, yes, to get ahead, yeah, and write whatever nonsense she cared to. At least the nonsense you would write would be benign yeah.
Speaker 1:Make your bed. People Just make your bed. Yeah, I say that having not made my bed in a few days, but I mean, it really does.
Speaker 2:You know, just like it is nice when you make your bed and it's like ah.
Speaker 1:Sometimes, when you're depressed and just forcing yourself out of bed, even though it feels like climbing Everest, makes a huge difference in your day.
Speaker 2:In my house. If I'm like I'm going to like lie down on my bed and like whatever, play on my phone or something, then it's like inevitable. My kids come and they pile on the bed with me and then it's not so relaxing anymore. It's like kid fight, play party Right. Like they start having an argument like right there.
Speaker 1:So we're going back to Diskin. I forgot to say at the top of this that I got pretty much all of this from People Investigates Cults, an episode from that short-lived series. Unfortunately, they didn't do more than that, which is unfortunate. Yeah, that is unfortunate. So Diskin said that James Ray was the target of the investigation early on because he was the one leading the sweat lodge early on. Because he was the one leading the sweat lodge. So I guess that means that guy that they originally talked to. I guess, now that I'm thinking about it, that was the guy that was heating the rocks outside of the sweat lodge and then james ray was inside the sweat lodge. Okay, so james ray was positioned right next to the door or flap. He would call for more rocks and the flap would open and the rocks would be brought in and water poured on them, which would then create the steam.
Speaker 1:Most groups at these lodges would do four rounds, not seven or eight like James Ray did. Usually with other groups. It was very laid back. If you needed a break, you could leave and come back back. If you needed a break, you could leave and come back. But when it came to james ray's lodges, when people needed to leave. He would tell them things like you're better than that, you need to stay in. We'll get to more of that in a second. Yeah, yeah, it's. Oh, my god, this whole thing sounds like a terrible nightmare. I hate being hot right and then being in a sweat lodge and humid.
Speaker 1:That's the worst In Arizona why?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't think that. I mean, I don't think I would make a very good cult member anyway, no, no. But I especially wouldn't make a very good cult member if people made me hot and if people try to shame me publicly then I would just like explode on their ass, right?
Speaker 1:I don't think I would explode, but I would.
Speaker 2:I would probably sit there politely and take it and then leave and never go back I would be like who the fuck are you like, yeah, like like michael skype to to toby's. Like who do you think you are? What gives you the right? Only the difference is Toby is just sitting there, very benign and passively.
Speaker 1:Well, you are a bigger, well, a more forceful person than I am, which is probably a good thing.
Speaker 2:It's probably a good thing person than I am, which is probably a good thing.
Speaker 1:It's probably a good thing. I'm more passive, but I don't think I'd make a good cult member either, because one I'd be like you want how much money for that? Right, no, thank you. And second, I would be like I'm not lazy, but I do have chronic depression, right, well, I get, I don't know if they've actually labeled it chronic, but I've had lifelong depression.
Speaker 1:I've been depressed since I was 10, basically, and I also have tremendous anxiety, and both of those things lend to not laziness, but to me not being able to function the way that a cult would need me or require me to function Like just listening to some of these things not even for this one, but to any cult where they're like, like Scientology, you need to go in and get a reading or whatever. I feel like that's way too much fucking work. I'm not doing that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, same. But like with executive dysfunction, like yeah, somebody was like, yeah, exactly. Like I can barely, like I can't even keep on top of making my appointments and shit, like I would definitely not go in and make a reading.
Speaker 1:We would be cult failures. Rachel, They'd ask us politely to leave.
Speaker 2:I mean, I don't think Scientologists want me anyways, because don't you have to like pay a bunch of money and stuff like that and I don't have any money?
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, they get you in for free. That's what most of these do. They get you in for free, they do whatever, give you a test or whatever, or they love bomb you or whatever their tactic is, and then they basically convince you that you need this in order to be quote-unquote fixed. Yeah, so I used to back when I was in journalism school um, scientology, at least the one in albuquerque, I don't know if it's still there, but it was that they had an online test you could take and I wanted to do a story on scientology. I didn't really understand anything about it was like before all this stuff came out, yeah, and I kind I wanted to do a story on Scientology. I didn't really understand anything about it. It was like before all this stuff came out and I kind of wanted to do a story on it because I thought it was kind of fascinating and they had an online test, and so I took the test.
Speaker 1:I took it like five times under five different names and five different email addresses, and it didn't matter what answer I gave. Something was always wrong with me that needed to be, of course, fixed and could be fixed if I went in and then they would talk to me, which then would lead to a lot of money with you, then how are they going to get you in so they can exactly?
Speaker 2:yeah, I mean, isn't that the way of all religion too? They're like something's wrong with you and you need to fix it. Yeah, it's true, it's kind of the premise of most religions.
Speaker 1:It's kind of the premise of our society.
Speaker 2:It's true, it is the premise of our society.
Speaker 1:Okay, so back to our Back to crime. Back to crime. So Diskin said that James Ray was the target of the. Oh, we already did that. So Melissa was at the Spirit Warrior event and she said that the scene looked like a war zone and people were moaning and they couldn't walk. People were crawling and stumbling out of the tent. She said people asked James Ray, what should we do? And he replied how would I know? I'm not a nurse. And then walked off.
Speaker 2:What an asshole.
Speaker 1:Oh, oh, it gets worse. I'm sure it does. So the investigators can't find him, so they go to his assistant who tells them he's back in his bungalow. He answers the door, in his boxers eating a sandwich. Deputy Bolin said you need to get out there, your people need you. You need to go talk to the investigators. James Ray apparently didn't like being bothered and asked why his assistant couldn't take care of it. The detective tried talking to him, uh, or I guess, eventually put on pants and went out and um, the investigator tried talking to him on pants.
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, uh tried talking to him and he lawyered up right away. No surprise, uh, and they let him go because at that point the only thing he was really guilting of was being an absolute piece of shit, right and um, he actually, I guess, left the scene at that point, like completely left, like not left the bungalow and and everything. Okay, just to illustrate the piece of shit point that I was making kirby brown's mom so she was one of the the dead said that she received a call from James Ray after the death of Kirby and he asked how she was and she replied I'm in shock. And he replied quote I am too. This is the most horrific thing that has ever happened to me in my life. Yeah, what a way to make it about you, buddy. Indeed, you're calling a mother who just lost her daughter and you're complaining, obviously like I don't know, not to psychoanalyze, but obviously I am gonna psychoanalyze.
Speaker 2:Cult leaders are all narcissists. So like I like. How else are you gonna think that this is okay, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So a few hours later she got a call. Kirby's mom got a call from Kirby's roommate at the retreat. So, in contrast to James Ray, the roommate said that started to cry and said that she was so sorry that she couldn't save her. Yeah, that that's the appropriate response, not making it about yourself. Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:Diskin said that there were so many people and so many factors that could determine if the incident was just a terrible accident or an actual crime. Some factors were things like was there a toxin involved? Was it a ritual where something was ingested that could have caused the deaths? So they took samples from all over the sweat lodge to be tested. Ultimately, the forensic and chemical tests were negative for everything they could think of. It was determined that the deaths were caused by a combination of things Poor circulation and no airflow, and the heat. The evidence also showed that the people in the lodge showing heat-related illnesses were not physically capable or mentally capable to leave, I bet.
Speaker 1:So it was clear that the incident was a crime, but was it manslaughter or negligent homicide? Now, the difference between the two is in the mindset of the person, so in this case, james Ray's mindset. So did he know that people could die, or did he fail to perceive that people could die? Investigators find out that James Ray had been alerted to the fact that Kirby was unconscious, having trouble breathing, and that he was very dismissive about it. They know that it could be that maybe he didn't fully hear or couldn't understand or believed that she was okay. In other words, they gave him kind of the benefit of the doubt.
Speaker 2:Yeah, a big fucking benefit of the doubt. Well, hold on.
Speaker 1:So they decided to do a full investigation into his past. Right, I mean, they got to do that because the defense attorney could make all of those arguments. So they have to prove that those things are not true. So they have to prove that those things are not true. So they analyzed other events and interviewed participants of those events to find out what types of safety measures he had in place for the higher risk activities that he would do.
Speaker 1:It became evident that he was careless in the way that he did the things. People had broken hands, someone had almost lost their eye, had it poked out during something called the arrow break exercise I assume that's where you try to break an arrow. He never had paramedics standing by or even a fire truck waiting outside. He would just sweep these incidences under the rug. If somebody was hurt, they would be ushered off to the side so that it wouldn't create a scene and people wouldn't know. They also found that he had a history of running those extreme sweat lodges and again in case you forgot, his were extreme. Most of the time you do like four rounds.
Speaker 1:He did seven or eight in his lodges even four rounds sounds like a lot to me, yeah and also in generally speaking, when you do sweat lodges, you can leave any round of a sweat to be honest, um, generally, even with those rounds, you can leave at any time and come back if you want to.
Speaker 1:You couldn't do that in a James Ray Lodge. I mean you could, but you would be shamed. In 2005, a man had a heat-related illness in one of his sweat lodges and had to be transported to a hospital. Apparently, james Ray had been furious about the fact that the man had been taken to the hospital in an ambulance. I assume it was in an ambulance, maybe they just did it in a car. The sweat lodges actually apparently got more extreme every year.
Speaker 1:So, connie, if you remember her I think I forgot to mention she and her husband were part of this and she and her husband were part of this. They had been. She said that they had been to something like I forget if it was 27 or 37 of James Ray's events in like three years. So they were devotees. So she said, whenever a group of them would get nervous about the safety of the exercises that James Ray would ask them to do, they would tell each other he's a businessman, he wouldn't ask us to do anything that was dangerous because we could get hurt and that would be bad for business. But it became more of a question towards the end of doing those events with him.
Speaker 1:So she and her husband eventually leave, and I'll get to that in a second. So in the episode she goes on to talk about her own experience in a sweat lodge during a spiritual warrior event in 2007. So she said she was quote on the edge of the pit. Steam just comes up, it's searing your arms, it's searing your legs. You can't breathe and I'm thinking, ok, the second that gate opens, I'm out of here. That gate opens, I'm out of here. So the thing opens and I go to stand up and I realize I can't stand. I'm doing this crab walk. Finally I get up and I'm hanging onto some of the branches inside and behind me somebody else came up who's also going to get out, and they were actually strong enough to grab the two people that were in front of them and and just pushed them forward, which pushed me forward and we just fell out. People are clearly not okay. I don't need a 911 call, but I'm not great. But there were people there who were seriously not good and I kept saying people are really bad, we need to call somebody, and one of the volunteers said no, this happens every year, it's okay. She told me you're not allowed to call 911. They did back in 2005 and it really ticked him off and we're not allowed. End quote.
Speaker 1:After that, connie left James Ray International and did not attend the Spiritual Warrior in 2009. So, according to Diskin, james Ray was running the sweat lodge again, but there was no evidence that he would physically stop someone from leaving, but he would convince them to stay inside even though they were in distress. They want to take a look. The police want to take a look at manuals and things like that to see what the safety procedures were. They want to see if he deviated in any way from his own policies on how he was supposed to run the sweat lodge. The investigators get a warrant for his office in Carlsbad, california. They couldn't find any material that would leave them to believe that he had any kind of training in how to run a sweat lodge. So, in other words, he lied about being trained by Native Americans, right. Another thing is that he didn't give refunds, so he would claim. So what he would do is in order to get people excited about spending the $10,000, is that he would claim that no one asked for a refund. Right's how good it was, that's how good the program was, but obviously that's not exactly true. They didn't ask for refunds because james ray didn't give refunds. So people felt compelled to go and participate. Right, you're spending ten thousand dollars. That's a lot of fucking money. Yeah, and that was the case for James Shore. He was one of the dead. He didn't want to go, but he felt he would waste the $10,000 if he didn't. He had already paid it.
Speaker 1:Melissa describes this the spiritual warrior event. So she had gone to this week-long spiritual warrior event in 2009. So she was. She is a witness to this week-long Spiritual Warrior event in 2009,. So she was a witness to this. So she said day one, participants were given the quote opportunity to let go of vanity. He wanted people to shave off their hair. She said, quote he was very emphatic that we should do everything in our power to do what he suggested and told us he was the guru, he was in charge, this was his event and if we followed his direction, we would find answers to life mysteries. There were a few women who decided not to shave off their hair and they were pressured and ridiculed end quote. According to her, everyone was excited and nervous to go into the sweat lodge. She said that James Ray told them that it would feel like they were going to die. So this episode actually played a recording of James Ray describing what would go on in the sweat lodge Also, I just wanted to point this out because it made me think of it when I saw it.
Speaker 1:Everything except what actually happened in the sweat lodge was recorded. Everything that week was recorded, which immediately reminded me of Jim Jones and Jonestown. He recorded everything, yeah, and also made me think of Nixon, because Nixon recorded everything too. Anyway, that was just a thought that popped into my head. So he recorded everything. In this recording he says quote you most likely will feel like your skin is going to fall off your body. It's hot, hellacious hot. But you see, the true spiritual warrior has conquered death. You just have to let go and say if I'm going to die, it's okay. End quote.
Speaker 1:Melissa said on that day everyone went in and sat in a circle facing the rock pit. James Ray told them there would be at least seven rounds. They could not leave during a round, but if they just could not quote transcend and overcome it, meaning their discomfort, then they could leave when the gates or the flap was opened. Melissa said that people were becoming delirious and she herself actually began feeling sick and dizzy so she left after one of the rounds and got some water, but she began to think about the fact that she'd spent $10,000.
Speaker 1:This was the last event. It would be a waste to not complete it. So she went back in. She said that people kept telling James Ray that Liz needed help, but he said not to worry about it, that she knew what she was doing because she'd done it before she was. I think had been part of this for three to four years and I think she had gone to a spiritual warrior retreat before. People said many times that Kirby needed help, but James Ray said that they would get to her. At the end of the round James Shore had actually dragged an unconscious person out in front of James Ray, then went back in. I guess he hit his head. I wasn't clear on that.
Speaker 2:He hit the person's head he was dragging.
Speaker 1:No, he hit his own head when he went back in, but I'm not sure if that's actually what they said or if I misinterpreted what they said. Anyway, he went over to help Kirby because he knew Kirby was in distress, but both of them were dead by the end of the round. James shore I'm sorry, not james shore, james ray was arrested for manslaughter. The state apparently put on a really good case, they had all the experts, etc. But the jury was not allowed to hear about the previous incidents at james ray events because of arizona rules of evidence, rules 404 oh, arizona. Well, a lot of states have it. We, I think we have a similar one ourselves, which says quote evidence of a person's character is not admissible for the purpose of proving an action on a particular occasion. End quote. Those incidents, of course, were important to understanding not only James Ray's mindset but also those of the participants in the sweat lodge?
Speaker 2:How? Is a person's character not something that you need to take into account on whether or not they're capable of malicious intent.
Speaker 1:I think it's just over prejudicial to the defendant.
Speaker 2:Maybe. Yeah, no, I agree that that's an issue, but I'm saying, in the case of like like violent or or endangerment through negligence, that that kind of history is very relevant to the case and but could also be overly prejudicial in fact it there's usually like like evidence show that that when there's like that kind of pattern of of violence and negligence, that it tends to escalate I don't know, dude.
Speaker 1:I mean I'm not. I'm not saying I agree with the rule of evidence. I agree with you, especially in a case like this, especially when we get to the next paragraph or two paragraphs. So because of that rule, the jury didn't get to hear all that stuff. The defense only had two witnesses. James Ray didn't testify on his behalf and the defense said their whole argument basically wasn't really an argument. They were basically just attacking the estate's case. James Ray was found guilty of a lesser charge and was given two years in prison for the death of each victim, for a total of six years. You want to get really mad. The judge said that they could run concurrent, meaning he would serve them all at the same time. That's bullshit. So he only had to serve two years for the deaths of three people and I don't think he even spent the full two years in prison. Yeah, I think it was close to two years, but I think he got out a few months early. He was released in 2013.
Speaker 2:This is like what I'm saying. Whether or not I don't know, I think it's violence, even though it doesn't involve, like you know, it's a kind of passive violence.
Speaker 1:I'm not done yet you want to get even more mad? Oh God, continue. James Ray is back at the self-help guru stuff. Oh no, he spun the story into his own personal tragedy, jesus. So the death of three people had to happen so that he could teach people how to overcome, come on adversity. He just published a new book that came out in 2024, april of this year.
Speaker 2:He does appearances uh, and I looked at it. Take this guy seriously.
Speaker 1:I I looked at his website. There's stuff on a whole bunch of different themes.
Speaker 2:I think he's got some stuff going with his wife and, yeah, honestly it's gross I mean, I guess, I guess in a world where people worship the ground that trump walks on, I guess I'm not really shocked no, I mean, look, I am all for people coming out of prison and trying to make something of themselves and getting that chance, but it just seems so gross and disgusting.
Speaker 1:And then you're not allowed to have animals anymore.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Like, if you killed a bunch of people, like doing this like health spa thing, like you should not be allowed to do that anymore. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So I do want to say that there is a documentary about him that I think was put out by CNN. I want to say it was CNN. It was one of the news organizations. I'm pretty sure it was CNN. I know it wasn't Fox, it was one of the other leaning ones. Now I didn't get a chance to watch it. I was planning on doing a completely different case and then I found out that one of our favorite podcasts literally just did that case. So I did this one.
Speaker 2:I have a question.
Speaker 1:Do you?
Speaker 2:think the publicity around this case has hurt or helped his business.
Speaker 1:Well, I don't think most people even know about him anymore.
Speaker 2:Wow, people do have very short memories.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this documentary. I didn't get a chance to watch it, but he advertises it on his website and that makes me wonder how unbiased it actually is. Like has CNN bought into his bullshit, or is this guy promoting it in the sense of like even the bad stuff is good publicity, or like to make himself somehow look better? Like look, I can take criticism, I don't know. Question, although I think I know the answer for both of us. Is James Ray a cult leader?
Speaker 2:Yes, why he convinced a bunch of people through manipulation and tactics of like what's the word Withdrawal? Like extreme states to influence their decisions and, like I said earlier, to put them in a mental state where they're very suggestible.
Speaker 1:Yes, so I wrote down mine. I said I agree with the anti-cult activist and attorney, jason Jones, who's part of this episode. So I would say, yes, he is a cult leader, but in a more modern sense of the word. Right, like most people, when they think cult leader, they think communes or something along those lines. So in other words, these more modern cults are more about monetary transaction and less about that whole living communally thing. So who can afford to do that.
Speaker 1:So in these modern cults, these gurus, uh basically have adapted this idea of let them live at home yeah you know, let them keep their jobs. But you take everything else right because normally a cult leader. You got to leave your house and you got to give up everything and you got to give up your job and go work for the cult. But this you get to know it there.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry that reminds me of jesus but they take everything else, especially their money, and according to jason jones, it's actually a lot easier to get sucked in, and I would agree with that if all they're asking of you easier, right, yeah? Well, that's it. If they're only asking you for some money and they promise you everything, that's easy. Yeah, somehow you'll find the money if you want it.
Speaker 2:Bad enough like losing, like leaving your home, leaving your family and all that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's that's gonna be a lot harder to convince. That's a bigger ask yeah.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I agree, that's more insidious, yes, far more insidious. I mean, all cults are pretty insidious, but yeah yeah, just in that like more subversive kind of sneaky way. Yeah, that's what I'm saying because it doesn't it.
Speaker 1:It doesn't it doesn't look like our idea of a cult. It doesn't ring those alarm bells?
Speaker 2:No, it doesn't. How's your feeling about MLMs as modern day cults?
Speaker 1:Oh, absolutely. Well, look, here's the thing. So have you read the book Cultish? Nope, Okay. So there's this book called Cultish it comes. It's written by an academic I'm blanking on her name right now.
Speaker 1:Her expertise is in linguistics and things like that, and she also has a podcast called, I think, cultish or is it a cult, something like that. Anyway, there are loads of things that feel cultish but aren't necessarily a cult. Now, mlms are one that it could be a cult, and I personally I would say it's a cult, but it's also not in the fullest definition of cult. Yeah, so it's more heavy cultish, right, right? So like she also talks about things like that bicycle thingy, now that's kind of slipping away what?
Speaker 1:do you call that? I don't know. Now it's peloton, but before that it was just cycling. I think, yeah and um, before that, what was the one where you were like flipping tires?
Speaker 2:oh, um, what is the name of that cross?
Speaker 1:fit cross fit. Yeah, and the reason that they're cultish is because you would get into these small groups or, like in cycling or in Peloton, there would be a favorite leaders, right, and you would be shamed if you missed one or if you needed to do something and you couldn't make it right. So, that's a little bit cultish, but it's not a cult, but it feels that way. I don't think cycling as a whole is cult-ish, but there are certainly elements within it that lean towards the cult-ish stuff.
Speaker 2:So would you say like, because I would say like you know, that stuff is, like you know, they're trends, they're crazes, Are those things cultish Trans?
Speaker 1:and crazes. I think it depends on the behaviors of the people within those things, right? So, for example, one of the most Fandoms they can be. They can be, I don't want to get yeah, they definitely can be. I don't want to get the Swifties on my ass, but some elements within that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the Swifties, the.
Speaker 1:Bayhive, yes, and also I mean even Harry Potter. To an extent there are people who get into that. You know it's not everybody in these groups, there are just certain elements by some people that kind of make it lean that way.
Speaker 1:But another point that she actually made is like so some of the things about one of the things that makes a cult a cult is basically word salad or affirmations, but some really good things. Groups use affirmism, what's the word I'm trying to say, affirmations, and and sometimes feels like it's, but like like, for example, she used, um, I think she used the example of like those drives to raise money for, like, breast cancer, right, right, like they use things that, taken out of context, are kind of culty, you know, and actually somebody I think she interviewed somebody who was in charge of those kind of things and the lady was like, yeah, they're kind of culty, but you know that's kind of works on people, right, and you kind of need it. So that's it. My point, I think, was just that, was just that like that's cult-ish, but cult-ish doesn't necessarily mean bad.
Speaker 2:Was that about it for your story?
Speaker 1:That's totally it for my story.
Speaker 2:Do we want to talk about what we've been reading and watching and all those things? Sure.
Speaker 1:It's all you, oh, it's all me. I, oh God those things. Sure it's all you. I, oh god. Um, I didn't do anything because, nice, first my poor cat legit, my poor cat had to go into the vet a couple of times and it was a thing and um. So they're just. And on top of that, I have three schools I teach in. Two of them started last week, one started this week. A couple of classes I never taught before, so I spent a lot of time creating those, so I just didn't have the ability to, or the time to do any reading. Wow.
Speaker 2:I have pretty much abandoned not abandoned, but this year I've read, I think, maybe one, maybe two physical books and the rest have all been audiobooks. Because I just like, like, when I'm you know whatever, I'm making dinner washing dishes like sweeping my floor.
Speaker 2:Whatever I can listen to my book, yeah, and like, sometimes I'll listen to music, like especially if I'm doing really tedious chores, and sometimes I need music because, like it gives me that oh, that little like dopamine, yeah, but like if I'm just doing like stuff, that, yeah, then I usually listen to my books and it helps pass the time of doing those chores. So let me see. So I think the last book I talked about was Sand right by Hugh Howey, and since then I read the Death of Jane Lawrence by Caitlin Starling, which was nice. I enjoyed it. I didn't enjoy it as much as the Luminous Dead, but that's more because the Luminous Dead has more like themes that I dig, like being in like a cave, like body horror, like I mean, this did have some body horror as well, certainly More sci-fi. So that's why I just it's just like more to my taste, yeah, basically, but this was also quite good. Yeah, but it's, like you know, more of like your gothic ghost story type of stuff. But I probably like that one, yeah, but it also does have those same elements from the luminous dead, like claustrophobia, like psychological horror you don't know exactly what's real and what's not body horror type of things as well, and so, yeah, it was quite enjoyable. So for for like a ghost type story, which usually aren't like the highest on my list, um, yeah, I quite enjoyed it. So, yeah, I think I I like the way that this author does stories. I also read the whole by.
Speaker 2:I'm not sure if I'm saying this right. Hi, young pune, he's like a Korean author. So, yeah, I thought it was quite good. Like the story kind of unfolds with these nuances as you go along For the length of the book. It's got a lot of complexity and it touches on a lot of things Misogyny, ableism and, I guess, ageism a bit. And just, yeah, as we learn about this character, as everything is going on and we learn more about him is going on and we learn more about him. Like, I don't want to give too much away, but something may be bad, we're concerned might happen to him. But as we learn more about the character, maybe our perception of him shifts a little bit interesting as the story goes on I I thought you were talking about.
Speaker 1:There's another book called the whole, but it's by a japanese writer, hiroku oyamada oh huh, which I think perhaps you would like. Maybe, um, but anyway, she wrote he, she, he, uh, the author we'll go with. The author wrote another book that I had spent months and months and months looking for and I didn't find it until I went to a Japanese bookstore in Little Tokyo in LA called the Factory, which I think maybe you might also like, because I think it's maybe satire Something along those lines of capitalism and working and things like that.
Speaker 2:This one is about a man who wakes up from a horrible car accident completely paralyzed. His wife is dead and when he's released from the hospital, he's being cared for by his mother-in-law for by his, his mother-in-law and like it starts out with like a, you know, very good relationship. And as they go on the, the relationship seems to devolve and she starts digging a giant hole in his garden.
Speaker 2:yeah, so it's yeah that sounds and it has those also those elements of claustrophobia, right, body horror, like he's trapped in his own body. Yeah, so Interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I hate to cut this short, but my car is ready. Oh nice, but hold on. Before we do that, we got to remember. Next episode episode 24, is our book, which is Little Crazy Children by James Renner. I read two more books. You read two more books. Okay, give us the titles.
Speaker 2:Hunted by Darcy Coates and Rabbits by Terry Miles.
Speaker 1:Nice Darcy Coates Iits by Terry Miles. Nice Darcy Coates, I like her. Yeah, yeah, so Little Crazy Children. James Renner, episode 24. Please give us a download review like subscribe, please. That would help us. Please email Crickets again, I think, yeah, you can also DM us. We're both independently on.
Speaker 2:Instagram, as well as our…. If you're listening and you have thoughts that you want to share with us… yeah, do you?
Speaker 1:think this was a cult. Yeah, are MLMs cults.
Speaker 2:And yeah, Don't come at me those Swifties. I wasn't insulting you, what do you think Like? Is cult-like mentality taking over our society? Maybe?
Speaker 1:Okay. So yes, Is capitalism a cult? We have to talk at least once about capitalism. It's necessary for our our yeah, I don't know our minds or something. Okay, so, yes, please download, like, subscribe, leave a review, follow us on instagram. There's facebook page, email us and we will see you talk to you next time. Bye.
