Details Are Sketchy
A bimonthly true crime podcast, in which two friends share an unsolved disappearance or unsolved case, a crime they're most intrigued by, and talk all things true crime.
Details Are Sketchy
Down the Rabbit Hole: The Baffling Case of Rey Rivera
In this episode, Rachel brings us the first part of the very baffling case of Rey Rivera, while Kiki brings us the disappearance of Giovanna Tyler.
Our next book is "Long Haul: Hunting the Highway Serial Killers" by Frank Figliuzzi, which we will discuss in episode 28.
Sources:
Rey Rivera -
Unsolved Mysteries - "Mystery on the Roodtop" Season 1 Episode 1
Crime Junkie - "Mysterious Death of Rey Rivera"
Mysterious Brews Podcast - "Rey Rivera"
Strange and Unexplained with Daisy Eagan - "Impossible Death of Rey Rivera"
Jennifer Bails - "Preacher Dies in Crash"
Caleb Kaltenbach - "The Suspicious Case of Rey Rivera...and Why He Matters"
Giovanna Tyler -
FBI.gov "Giovanna Tyler"
Socials:
Instagram: Details Are Sketchy - @details.are.sketchy
Facebook: Details Are Sketchy - @details.are.sketchy.2023
Instagram: Kiki - @kikileona84
Instagram: Rachel - @eeniemanimeenienailz
Email: details.are.sketchy.pod@gmail.com
I'm Kiki and I'm Rachel, and this is Details are Sketchy, a true crime podcast. And you just tasted the pumpkin spice Twinkie. How'd it go? Amazing, it's delicious, isn't it? It's very delicious, yeah, surprisingly so. Yeah, I wasn't sure if it, if it would be good or not, but it is like a little preservative sugar bomb in my mouth.
Speaker 2:Yes, it is, it is, and I love every second of it.
Speaker 1:You know it's this week when I bought these Twinkies after my mom told me about them. That's like the first Twinkie I've had since Egypt. They used to be everywhere in Egypt. Do you remember that?
Speaker 2:Yes, when we went they were, I remember, and it was amazing because that was when likeies were like discontinued for a while.
Speaker 1:Yeah, remember. Yeah, they weren't here for, yeah, they were discontinued in the US.
Speaker 2:yeah, and for years I didn't give a fuck about Twinkies Right Until they discontinued them and I was like hold up, you can't take my Twinkies. No.
Speaker 1:And then we just consumed them like crazy that and koshery when we were in Egypt, yeah, and then we just consumed them like crazy that and koshery when we were in Egypt.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the fried apple pies at the McDonald's, oh my God.
Speaker 1:I know I am so sad they're gone. I know Now they're baked. The other one's baked, yeah, I know, in Japan I loved them so much and they discontinued in the US. When we lived in Japan they hadn't done that yet, and so they still had the fried apple pie, and so every weekend or every other weekend, I would make my grandparents take me to the mall that had the McDonald's so I could get the apple pie. So I was like I got to stock up on this while I'm here.
Speaker 2:McDonald's. If you're listening, bring back the fried apple pie. Everybody knows that apple pie is not good for you.
Speaker 1:Just fucking fry it already, yeah none of your food is good for us, so just stop pretending.
Speaker 2:The supersize me era is over. Yes, tragically, I heard that the supersize me guy passed away.
Speaker 1:Oh really, I actually never read that, because I didn't want to not eat out again, I wanted to keep living in bliss, oh yeah, just like recently, I think this year.
Speaker 2:Oh wow, so Well, that's lame. It wasn't because of McDonald's, though. No, of course not. I mean, I'm sure, if you eat meatballs every day of your life, yes, probably don't do that. Yeah, who can afford to anymore? Mcdonald's is fucking expensive.
Speaker 1:I know it's no, it's no more the cheap place. Yeah, in egypt that was like the, the like it was a, a special place for most egyptians because they can't afford.
Speaker 2:remember people were like going on dates there and shit yeah.
Speaker 1:And now that's for us yeah. Because we can't afford it anymore.
Speaker 2:I remember like kind of mocking it, I was like date at McDonald's, yep. But now, yeah, I can see it, yep.
Speaker 1:Yep, okay. So now that we've done that, what are we doing? Oh, I'm going to do my missing person, rachel, is the case. It's going to be either a two or three parter, depending on how far we get today.
Speaker 2:We don't want to get too far today because it is our 24th episode, which means we also have our book. Do our listeners listen to my super long multi-part? I don't know.
Speaker 1:They apparently really love children who commit murder. That is like our most downloaded.
Speaker 2:This is episode definitely. Well, I mean, I guess it could be, it could be anything. So if you, if anybody has a a theory that ray rivera was murdered by children, then there you go.
Speaker 1:Maybe we should have that as clickbait. Right, no that would be very disrespectful. It would be very disrespectful. So, uh, our book is a little crazy. Where'd it go? Where'd my book go? I literally just had it in my hand.
Speaker 2:There are some pretty outlandish theories.
Speaker 1:It's Little Crazy Children. Oh yeah, sorry.
Speaker 2:I'm like eating, that's okay. The twinking.
Speaker 1:It's Little Crazy Children by James Renner.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:So we'll be talking about that. We have theories.
Speaker 2:Although they weren't that little theories, although they weren't that little and they weren't that crazy, they were just assholes, yeah but I thought, yeah, although that comes from the crucible yeah, I know, yeah, but I'm just saying yeah, no, I remember yeah, they were just they said it came from the crucible.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, they're not little, they're just yeah, assholes, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Rich assholes. We sound really bitter because we're always dumping on the rich. We're not bitter. Oh, we here in our little city here in New Mexico, got our first Tesla. What is that? Ugly fuck Cyber truck, tesla, cyber truck.
Speaker 1:At the restaurant we were just at oh god, it was hideous, although apparently my seven-year-old thinks it's beautiful it looks like something someone would have created if they were asked to draw something about what they think the future was like, like back in the 90s, sure, but if it's like, I don't know, like a kid, yeah yeah, no, that's what I mean. Like yeah, like a, what a?
Speaker 2:like yeah, what a young person would think the future vehicles would look like, based on like the 80s or 90s yep, yeah, and specifically like like a little boy, like, yeah, it's gonna be like this, yeah, you know, or little boy energy yeah, yeah, it's not attractive no, it's not, but it is definitely a showstopper, like everybody that walked by it like stopped yeah and took a look.
Speaker 2:That is true. Yeah, and laughed a little. It's true, I took a picture so I could send it to my spouse in mockery. Yeah, yeah, so I mean it gets attention? It certainly does. I mean, if all press is good press, then that's the kind of vibe yeah, the cyber truck is going for.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's so crazy how tesla has gone in this town, because, well, I guess it's not. We've we've gotten a lot of rich folk from california coming in, so they're bringing their teslas and shit over yep yeah, that's what.
Speaker 2:That's what jay said.
Speaker 1:They were like those californians yeah, although I'm a californian, okay, but like I have nothing against california, it's just it's expensive in california, so they're coming here to new mexico making new mexico expensive for people.
Speaker 2:It's quite a bit of. It seems like it's a lot of conservative Californians.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they are turning our state for sure.
Speaker 2:They're like on, like our, you know, like group, like the Facebook group and stuff like that. Yes, I know, facebook is for old people. I'm old people, okay, but um, what was my point? That they're conservative.
Speaker 2:They're like on there like bitching about Gary Newsom, like nobody gives a fuck. Gary Newsom is not your governor anymore. Like fuck off, right, yeah, yeah, Anyway. And they're complaining about how like they can't get any good Chinese food. We didn't have all this Chinese immigration and like railroad and the gold rush and all this shit. Like we don't have the same history as you and we don't have the same you know, yeah, you came to a poor state.
Speaker 1:What the fuck did you expect? Demographics, that's the word.
Speaker 2:I'm like I'm gesturing on a podcast.
Speaker 1:I'm like get what I'm saying, yeah, no, we don't have the same demographics, we don't have the same history, exactly, and we are a poor state.
Speaker 2:So yeah, it's going to be harder to find really good authentic Chinese food here, Anything other than mexican food?
Speaker 1:yeah and it's no. It's not the same mexican food as in california you can find really great mexican food.
Speaker 2:You can find really good native american food here, like embrace new mexico yeah, just embrace our poverty right like and our lack. I mean we are, you know whatever like a poor state, but like we have a pretty fucking cool culture and we should do, we definitely. And like yeah, I'm like hey, yeah, stop shitting all over it.
Speaker 1:Yeah well, we've got a growing, um uh, a beer. What do you call them? A brewery culture thing happening. We've got lots of our specialty beers and stuff here our pecan pinon sopa pias oh my god, yes, I just.
Speaker 2:We just went out to eat. I had stuff sopa, pias, and, oh my god, yeah, there was stuff with shredded beef and it was like a fried little meatball of heaven.
Speaker 1:It's a wonderful thing because you can go savory, you can go sweet.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and sopapillas were invented here in New Mexico.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you can't get them anywhere else. No, okay. Anyway, now that we're done, sort of talking up our state, you can tell I'm kind of done with new mexico, but still I mean like yeah, I mean there's definitely things that I'm certainly over sometimes.
Speaker 1:I'm over this city for sure yeah but like there's other things I really love about it oh yeah like I don't know yeah, if I could take the things I love and then move near a beach, I would be a very happy person like the mexican food and the uh caliches yeah, that's why, you know, I have told jay, I'm like, yeah, yeah, I will move anywhere, not anywhere.
Speaker 2:Like, obviously, like with our family being what it is, we're not moving to like a red state, right.
Speaker 1:But like I'm like, yeah, I will miss New Mexico, yeah, there's a reason that we jokingly call it the land of entrapment instead of enchantment. It's true, a lot of us try and leave and we wind up coming back. I have tried to leave many times. Yep, I've tried to leave.
Speaker 2:Yep, you won't beat the sunsets, though there are no sunsets that are anywhere close to what New Mexico has, or if you want to be a cult leader or join a cult, or you believe in aliens good state to be in if I could convince myself to you know, scam a bunch of people like that, then, yeah, I'll be in there yeah, okay, so uh shall we um yeah oh, there's one more thing, okay. Yeah, I wanted to mention about this meme that I've seen you know that song like the party anthem or party rock anthem by lmfao. That's like you know, every day I'm shuffling. You know that one right.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I always thought that it started like party rockers in the house tonight, but apparently it's party rock is and I never knew that and there's like a big meme war about it because apparently a lot of people thought it was party rockers and I want to know if you thought it was party rockers and I want to know if you thought it was party rockers or party rock is, I don't know I I only know the every damn shuffling yeah part, because I asked jay and they said that they always knew it was party rock is.
Speaker 2:But I always heard party rockers and it starts it off.
Speaker 1:Let me YouTube it.
Speaker 2:Well, it starts off with some like little, like whatever, Like yeah or whatever. But like what is it Then? Like what's it called? It's called Party Rock. Anthem by LMFAO.
Speaker 1:It sounds like Party Rockers. Yeah, it does Real millennial shit. Yeah, it first sounded like Party Rockers, but then this second, this line here it sounded like Party.
Speaker 2:Rockers in the house.
Speaker 1:Okay, so my verdict the first time I heard party rockers and then they said it party rock is in the house. But then I rewound it and it sounded like party rock is in the house. So, okay, I don't know, but you, maybe I wouldn't have even thought that if I hadn't yeah yeah, but no, the first time I heard party rockers for sure my favorite meme was one in the star trek shit posting group where there was like a cartoon animation that had kirk and obi-wan kenobi, and kirk said party rockers and obi-wan kenobi said party rock is.
Speaker 2:And then they glared at each other and then they made out.
Speaker 1:That's funny. I dug their clothes, though If I were somebody who didn't mind being outrageous, I would have dressed like that.
Speaker 2:I mean, I feel like even without wearing flamboyant clothes, I'm pretty outrageous Flamboyant that's the word I was thinking of. So I should go for flamboyant clothes. Go for it. I have a lot of sensory issues around clothes too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that makes it hard.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like I, like you, know fine clothes, I like dark gothy clothes and I, like you know, know bright clothes too. But yeah, a lot of times I put on those clothes and I'm like nope okay, I'm gonna start with the.
Speaker 1:Okay, the missing person just like a million minutes in yeah, okay, uh, so the missing person I found was Giovanna Tyler, missing since March 28th 2004 from Tacoma, washington. She goes by Jonna, I believe is how you pronounce it J-A-H-N-N-A. She was born February 27th 1975. She has brown eyes, brown hair. She has brown eyes, brown hair. She's roughly 5'9" and she weighs about 170 pounds. She has a multicolored dragon tattoo on her left shoulder I keep wanting to say soldier Her left shoulder. The FBI is offering a reward of up to $10,000 for information leading to the recovery of Giovanna Taylor and the conviction of those responsible for her disappearance. Tyler is an American Indian and Alaska native. She is a Makah tribal member. She has ties to Tacoma and Nebeh, washington N-E-A-H. I don't know how you say that. I would say Nebe, but I could be wrong. I'm sure if my aunt listens to this she will correct me. I will have a few more details after you do your thing, okay.
Speaker 2:Awesome, all right, I have another thing that. I thought I'd just say oh yeah, I know what it is. That last episode I did my intro part for my missing person and then we forgot to do the second part, where I talked in detail more about them. Yeah, talked in detail more about them, yeah. So I didn't realize that until you were like send me your sources. And then I was like, oh shit, I didn't do the second part.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so whoops, we've done that a few times. It's sometimes how we get caught up in whatever else yeah we do or, you know, people are wanting our attention, so we apologize for that Very poorly organized.
Speaker 2:Yeah know people are wanting our attention, so we apologize for that Poorly organized.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sometimes we are poorly organized.
Speaker 2:I know I'm poorly organized. Mindfuck of a confusing, mysterious death in 2006 was made famous by being featured in 2020 in the premiere episode of Netflix's reboot of Unsolved Mysteries, an episode titled Mystery on the Rooftop.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry, can you hand me the cough drops?
Speaker 2:Yes, I was like what did I touch?
Speaker 1:You didn't touch anything I just might. I'm about to have a coughing fit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you and me both Something is in the air.
Speaker 1:I hope it does not stick around, because I do not want to be with all of this shit, these stinky things, while I'm on a cruise. It's back to school season. I know, I don't think it's illness. I think my chronic cough is just back. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So this was supposed to be like a shorter episode, but I struggle so much with that and I just have decided to go just completely the opposite and instead just do like a multi-part episode two or possibly three, because in this one I think I'm just going to mostly get into the background of like ray rivera and some housekeeping type stuff, which I know doesn't sound too exciting, but trust me, it's gonna be very relevant and I think it's interesting. And then probably in the next one we'll talk about like the actual like case and then maybe in the potential third one then we can talk about all of the theories. There's so many theories and I know like I listen to a lot of podcasts and read a lot of things on reddit and on articles and all these things and you're going to read a couple of books and I'm going to read a couple of books.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I have one book in my possession but I haven't really gotten much of a chance to read it because kids and appointments and things, and I am getting the other book that I know of. I don't know if there's any more books on Marie Rivera. These are the two that I could really find. Yeah, so I'm going to read those and, yeah, hopefully bring you all of the information, because you know the the more that you look at it, there's like angles and there's I put you know, somewhere in here it's like rabbit holes on rabbit holes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because there's so many kinds of your favorite rabbit holes.
Speaker 2:yeah, because there's your favorite kind yeah, it is my favorite kind you're so right, I, I, I like something that you know. I'm not that I like. You know, of course, that someone is passed away, yeah, but what intrigues me?
Speaker 2:I guess I should say is when something is mysterious and there's, yeah, there's when there's things to be unraveled, the unsolved mysteries episode is because I think she was really hoping that somebody would either have seen something, you know, come forward with some information, maybe fresh eyes can look at this. And so we're gonna look at it and you know. You know, while of course, remaining respectful, you know, to ray and the family, you know, but it is a mystery and like how I I'm and now I'm going off note, even though I like wrote similar stuff to this okay, yeah, I'm pretty much right saying similar stuff to what I had wrote.
Speaker 2:so I can't imagine I wrote.
Speaker 2:I can't imagine what a living nightmare it must have been, and still be, for his family, you know, to have what happened happen in such, not only a brutal way, but so mysterious and frustrating circumstances that are unresolved and the fact that it doesn't feel resolved.
Speaker 2:It's hard to find comfort and closure in that. And so, as someone who's now five-year-old Ray Sr, at the time of his untimely death 32 years is not enough time and although, from what I've heard and read about Ray, you know he seemed to live his life to the fullest. He was a young and vital man and it seemed like he was just on the cusp of grasping all of you know the goals that he wanted in his life when it was brutally snatched brutally snatch away, whether by his own hand or by another I want to save most of the proposed hypothetical scenarios for the next episode. It probably is going to be the third episode if we do a three-parter, but we'll see how far we get, and then I, but we'll probably get. As far as I wrote is how we'll get far we'll get. If you're not familiar with this case and haven't seen the unsolved mysteries episode. I know that katie hasn't seen it, which kind of excited me because I was like you get to learn about this for the first time.
Speaker 1:yeah, and I mean I'd heard about the case you.
Speaker 2:You've heard about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just didn't watch Unsolved.
Speaker 2:Mysteries. It's so mysterious, and so the episode on Netflix certainly has some shortcomings, but I would recommend for anyone to go watch it If you want to be on the edge of your seat, if you like rabbit holes and mysteries, and if you are like this is something that I can work on and think about and maybe think of something fresh, and especially if you lived in Baltimore in 2006, then you should definitely watch it. I mean, everybody who lives in Baltimore in 2006 probably knows exactly who Ray Rivera is, so you're probably like I already know. But definitely, if you're like, oh my gosh, maybe I saw something or you know, if you haven't come forward, then definitely you should do so, because one of our five listeners.
Speaker 2:Yes, one of our five listeners has the key. Yes, they might. You never know.
Speaker 1:Weirder things have happened.
Speaker 2:It's possible and I'm sure that that my words are going to compel them. But I mean that would be pretty cool, but I doubt it. But yeah, it would be cool. So I was amazed that it's been 18 years now since ray's death. But we can still hope to find some answers. We did for the Golden State Killer after like 30 plus years. So there's no deadline for hope. Here we go with some of the housekeeping.
Speaker 2:Ray Omar Rivera was born June 10th 1973 on an Air Force base in Madrid, that is, madrid, spain, because his father, angel Rivera Sr, was stationed there at the time. But later the family would move to Winter Park, florida, right on the outskirts of Orlando. I wonder if he got to go to like Disney World a lot when his father retired from the military. A middle child with an older brother, angel Jr, and a younger sister, elena, ray's parents, angel and Maria, were both born in Puerto Rico and Ray's Puerto Rican heritage and culture was a big part of his identity and his family. Family ties were very important to Ray and he remained very close to his family. As an adult, ray was raised Catholic, but his beliefs skewed more toward the spiritual as he became an adult, although he continued to find community and comfort in the church throughout his life. Ray was said to have an eidetic memory for things he was passionate about and he was a naturally talented musician who could memorize the songs his sister played on the piano by ear. He taught himself to play the quattro, which is a stringed instrument similar to a guitar with like ten strings. Apparently it looks kind of like a violin, but it plays like a guitar and it's got ten strings and it's very popular in Puerto Rico, but it's originated in Spain. Hmm, he was also very athletic and played a variety of sports in high school, including baseball and swimming, before fixing on water polo after being invited to the Olympic camp at UC Berkeley in California in his junior year of high school. He was a talented player and he received a scholarship I didn't see what kind of scholarship, but I'm assuming an athletic scholarship to the University of the Pacific in Stockton, california, where he majored in English.
Speaker 2:Ray particularly loves screenwriting and hoped to be able to make it in the film industry as a screenwriter. He was one of those film buff guys who was always quoting films, analyzing them. This made me laugh because I always thought those guys were kind of annoying and of course he would be working on his own projects constantly. Ray seemed to be a guy who everyone liked. He was known to be charismatic, thoughtful, sensitive. He was known to have a great sense of humor. He was always smiling and trying to make other people laugh. He was also tall and handsome and a star water polo player so pretty much the whole package.
Speaker 2:In 1994, ray was selected for the Summer Olympic Festival in St Louis Missouri. This festival is supposed to simulate the Olympics and give athletes a chance to sample the Olympic environment, as well as basically be like a scouting tool for the Olympic committee to scout Olympic talent. When Ray graduated from college in 1996, he was recruited by the Royal Spanish Swimming Federation. So that meant he got to go to Spain to play water polo and he taught English lessons on the side for extra spending money. While there he got a super exciting call He'd been selected for the Olympic men's water polo team. Like holy shit, how fucking cool is that? Immediately he left Spain and returned to the States to start training for the Olympic Games which took place in Atlanta that year. But unfortunately he was unexpectedly cut from the team, like a few weeks before the games. The reason is unclear, but it was rumored that maybe he had a disagreement with a coach that led to that decision. That was something that would end up being one of the biggest regrets of his life very understandably so.
Speaker 2:However, ray seemed like a guy who didn't just roll over With his athletic career in the toilet. He just redirected and decided to focus his energy and effort on his other passion of screenwriting. Energy and effort on his other passion of screenwriting. He started working in the Hollywood circuit, trying to get his name and scripts out there, trying for a break while working multiple jobs. I said that's Hollywood, baby, I'm a dork, that's okay. He settled on teaching high school Spanish in Burbank, while coaching the school's swimming and water polo teams. His students remember him fondly and basically said that he was a great coach and a good dude. He also had a third job oh my God, I can't even and also youth, working at the admissions office in the Los Angeles film school. While he was there, he completed his first screenplay, a horror story about a Puerto Rican piano player oh my God, a Puerto Rican piano player titled Virtuoso, which sounds amazing, to be honest. Yeah, and yeah, from what I could read, it had some interest, but I don't know if it was ever picked up by a studio. I hope it is floating around somewhere because it sounds really cool and I would love to see it.
Speaker 2:So in 2000, ray met his future wife, allison, through a mutual friend of theirs. Ray and Allison had a lot in common. She was an accountant who had graduated from UCLA and an athlete she had volleyball and cross country backgrounds who loved writing. So they hit it off right away. But they had a hard time making things work financially when they got serious, as even 24 years ago LA was extremely expensive. However, ray didn't let that stop him from proposing to Allison in 2004. I don't know why I wrote it that way, because it makes it sound so sudden when actually they were together for like four years before he proposed. So they weren't exactly rushing into things, but even so they didn't really have the finances for a wedding or they felt to start a family, which is why weddings are a capitalist scam.
Speaker 2:No worries, because Ray's good high school buddy, porter Stansberry, to the rescue. That makes more sense. Dun dun dun. Porter and Ray went to high school together and played water polo together. They went to prom together. They were pretty much known as besties.
Speaker 2:So in 2004, porter reached out to Ray and offered him a job as a writer for his financial advisor services company called Pirate Investors LLC, to write a newsletter for his company. Porter was basically handing Ray this easy choice job, high paying, and it would make all the things that he and Allison were trying to accomplish have a wedding, buy a home for Ray to start a production company possible. So how could anybody turn that down? The only major caveat was that Ray would have to move to Baltimore, which he wasn't keen on and Allison really wasn't. But it was an offer that Ray would have to move to Baltimore, which he wasn't keen on and Allison really wasn't. But it was an offer that Ray ultimately could not refuse. So he did take the job and Allison stayed in LA for her job because initially, I guess, porter promised that this would be a really short-term situation.
Speaker 2:So Ray moved to Baltimore and one of my sources said he was staying at a hotel called the Peabody. However, another source indicated that he was staying with another associate of Porter's in order, the oh my god an older gentleman named Tom Hickling, at an unknown location that was possibly insinuated to have been the Belvedere, which seems a bit sensationalist, but one source was from a podcast and the other one was a secondhand reference to Makita Brotman's book. However, her book is called An Unexplained Death. However, since I haven't read her book myself, I can't verify whether or not that information is actually in there. So tune in next week or not next week, like two weeks.
Speaker 2:Tune in in two weeks to find out. What we do know is that Tom Hickling is a very interesting individual because he was also involved in the same parent company that Porter's company was a subsidiary of, which is called, like Agora, and he died about six months before Ray did, in somewhat peculiar circumstances, this was a gentleman who didn't really have much in common with Ray on the surface, except for the tie to Agora. He was an older gentleman, not a senior, but he was upper middle age, 51. He was white. He was, I said, white, and he was somewhat of an evangelical Christian TV personality who was known for bringing Christian rock to Christian TV programming Known for bringing Christian rock to Christian TV programming. And this is a guy that Ray was alleged to have stayed with at the start of his time in Baltimore and they were known to get along pretty well.
Speaker 2:And this gentleman died in Zambia while visiting his daughter who was a relief worker there. The two of them got in a car accident where, I guess, this car came in from the side and hit them and Tom didn't make it. But here's the odd thing Tom's daughter was taken to the hospital for a broken leg but Tom was initially assessed to be okay and not that seriously injured, and was not taken to the hospital. His daughter recalled, after the accident, having a conversation with Tom where he assured her that he was feeling fine and it was okay for her to leave him and go to the hospital. Later he was found dead in the same car with a severe blow to the back of his head. Even more mysteriously, his remains were cremated right there in Zambia. So he was not autopsied in the US and at first I thought, well, that's just a cost-saving venture, but these were pretty rich people.
Speaker 2:So, they could have afforded to have shipped his body back to the US if they had wanted. So another thing is that apparently the news of Tom's demise set Ray on edge, according to Allison, and later Tom's name would be found in an infamous note that is left by Ray. So more on that later. I'm getting ahead of myself a bit Now. Ray didn't really know anything about money or financial investing. He was known to be quite bad with money. Actually, he preferred to only carry cash to prevent himself from overspending. And shortly after he took the job with Porter he got his very first credit card, but he didn't need to know about money to write up whatever Porter wanted him to write up, and apparently Porter preferred it that way. Porter didn't like to hire people who had strong financial backgrounds. He wanted people with quote character and resourcefulness, end quote. Basically, it seemed like he was allegedly deliberately hiring people who are green and naive when it came to financial matters in the stock market. In my opinion, if these alleged intentions were accurate, a potential reasoning would be to pull one over for possible alleged misconduct and possible alleged embezzlement attempts and other alleged mismanagement of funds, because your employees wouldn't know what you were doing allegedly wouldn't know what you were doing allegedly. Something that is not so alleged about Porter Stansberry is that in May 2002, porter Stansberry sent out an insider tip using an alias of J Daniel, advising that the stock of Company X was about to go up in a big way. In order to access more detailed information about Company X, investors would have to pay Jay Daniels $1,000 on top of what they were already paying his company for his special newsletter, when then they would get the real good shit sent to them in an email. Out of the 800,000 subscribers which is an insane amount of subscribers 1,217 pay the extra $1,000, which was over $1.2 million from one scammy-ass email. My words, $200,000 of that was pocketed by Porter himself. Scammy ass email my words. $200,000 of that was pocketed by Porter himself. However, when that super secret tip turned out to be a complete load of shit, investors were not too thrilled and they turned around and complained to the SEC, that's, the Security and Exchanges Commission. The SEC investigated and Exchanges Commission. The SEC investigated and they charged your boy. Porter tried to argue that he had a First Amendment right to lie to his customers, but the SEC and a federal judge disagreed with him and Porter's company was fined $1.5 million. So fast forward to 2004.
Speaker 2:Now, porter, what am I trying to say With Porter, possibly up to his old tricks, allegedly by hiring someone he knows is in a bit of a financial spot and that he knows doesn't know anything about the stock market and investing? Now, what Porter had initially pitched to Ray as a one month project ended up turning into a three month project, and then, at the end of that three month project, ray was offered a permanent position, and at that point he was like, look at this extra money, this is great. And so he was like, yeah, I can't turn this down Right. And so, of course, he accepted. Also, I have a little pick at the name of Porter's company, pirate Investment LLC.
Speaker 2:In the early aughts, a pirate was a thief who stole stuff digitally. So was Porter telling on himself. So Ray's job was to write a newspaper called the Rebound Report, and this report was supposedly to predict stocks that were dropping but that Porter's company predicted would rebound, thereby potentially helping investors decide which of these stocks to invest in, buy or sell. So, even though Allison and Ray were both not fans of Baltimore, they decided to give this job 24 months to save the money that they could use to kickstart their lives together buy a house, do their wedding that they wanted and invest and raise Dream Production Company. However, they can no longer stand to live apart, understandably. So Allison moved to Baltimore to be with Ray. Her job at that time for like a hair product company allowed her to work remotely, but she did have to travel a lot, sometimes internationally, and just do a lot of business trips for work wow, remotely before covid, I know awesome.
Speaker 2:I mean, I assume that she was doing something, something accounting, because they said that accounting was like her major.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Accounting in like business and previously she had been doing accounting stuff, so I couldn't find what her like a title was but I assume it was something accounting. Yeah, that would make sense. And that makes sense, right, you could do accounting from anywhere, like you don't have to be in the office.
Speaker 1:No, Unless you're around today, and then they apparently do feel that way. Yeah, assholes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's just to make employees feel like shit. Yes, there's a lot of things that they didn't hear, that you can't do today, yeah, okay, so for a little while they stayed with Porter and then with with like a relative of Allison's, like an aunt of hers, but by the end of 2004, they were able to purchase their own home that's the other thing. I meant A four bedroom townhouse that they closed on for less than $300,000. Yeah, amazing, yeah.
Speaker 2:While Ray hated writing the newsletter because he felt like he wasn't really qualified to be doing it Right and he kind of dreaded doing it, yeah, but eventually he did settle into the community. He started coaching water polo again. The community got involved in their local Catholic church and Ray started working on a new screenplay which was about a young woman water polo player who makes it into the Olympics, called Midnight Polo. In June of 2005, ray attended the Agora, that's Porter's company's parent company. I wrote awkwardly annual conference and within the month he had informed Porter of his intentions to quit. I didn't really write the connection but apparently he was like you know, it seemed like he was in really good spirits. His spirits were up Like. He seemed like he was like more happy in his job than he had previously, and that was because he had pretty much decided like I'm, I'm out of here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, foot out the door, um. So he was tired of writing the rerun report and he wanted to get out, get out, get back to what he knew and loved. Porter took the news well and even offered to hire Ray to do freelance videography for Pirate Investments LLC, agora and their other subsidiary, the Oxford Club, which is like a club of rich fucks who are like giving them tips on tax loopholes. Basically, ray and Allison took out a $15,000 advance on Allison's credit card so that Ray could start his own freelance videographer business called Saba Productions. On November 5th 2005, ray and Allison were finally wed in a beachside wedding in Puerto Rico. Their wedding was a beautiful and intimate family affair with personalized vows, and Maria Rivera, ray's mom, even managed to pull a somewhat famous Quatro player or actually quite famous in Puerto Rico, I guess where. I guess Quatro is a big deal in Puerto Rico, I guess Quattro is a big deal in Puerto Rico, and she was able to secure this famous Quattro player for their wedding. So the only scar on the celebrations was when Porter arrived in his own private helicopter, supposedly with a cigar hanging from his mouth his mouth.
Speaker 2:On March 14, 2006, wright attended the Oxford Club Annual Investment University Conference. As a freelance videographer, he had to film the proceedings and make DVDs about the conference that were then sent to members of the Oxford Club that couldn't make it to the conference. They had, however, paid for those DVDs in advance. In April of 2006, ray and Allison put their home up for sale. They were just about set to move back to LA. Ray's screenplay was complete. He was ready to start pitching it in Hollywood. They also wanted to start a family soon. He was right there, at the finish line of his time in Baltimore, when shit pretty much hit the fan. So I think that's where I'm going to stop.
Speaker 1:Okay, Stay tuned for the crime possibly Yep.
Speaker 2:Stay tuned for crime.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, lucky for our listeners, they don't have to wait two weeks for crime because we also have this crazy little children book.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, that's right, yes, okay. So our book oh yeah, that's right, yes, okay. So our book again was Little Crazy Children by James Renner. So in case you didn't read it, a little synopsis A teenage girl named Lisa Pruitt was murdered. Was she bludgeoned and stabbed, or just stabbed? Uh?
Speaker 2:they said she was definitely stabbed. I don't remember that her being bludgeoned, so I'm gonna say not bludgeoned.
Speaker 1:Okay, because I thought she's maybe like maybe not bludgeoned, but like knocked out or something. Yeah that may have been, so she maybe had been knocked out, but she was definitely stabbed something like 19 times and this will be important because I'm sure Rachel and I will discuss it. She had her shirt up around her neck and her pants and panties were down around her ankle, found very close to her boyfriend's house. She had been riding her bike to meet him.
Speaker 2:Her bike was like right in front of his house meet him for a secret rendezvous.
Speaker 1:A young man named Kevin Young was suspected of her murder. He was acquitted and so technically her murder is unsolved. A lot of people still think Kevin did it, although James Renner and, I think, rachel and I both think that he did not do it. I think Rachel thinks the boyfriend did it and I think the other guy did it.
Speaker 2:I'm uncertain now between, because we had talked about some of the details and I'm not sure if I got details mixed up or you got details mixed up, given my memory.
Speaker 1:Well, I know what you were saying. I marked the thing. So let me read you the paragraph, the thing, because you had said something about Renner's timeline not really matching up.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:With it being David. So David was somebody nobody really looked at, even though he went to the police. That was Twice and he knew things about the crime scene that only somebody there could have known. And he admitted to killing an animal and putting was it like Clorox or something in his classmate's sandwich?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and he most likely murdered the two elderly neighbors from years before there were some two elderly neighbors that had died A few years before and there had been a break-in and they were killed. They were also stabbed. Yeah, and he was a quote witness to that murder and he gave a similar witness statement about their deaths that he did. So, those things were compelling. Yeah, the thing that I thought was off is that I thought that there is a funky timeline. Yes, let me read that, but I may have been mistaken about that.
Speaker 1:No, I can see you weren't mistaken. But also I think now, where did I have I marked the timeline? Oh, there, it is Okay, so it wasn't really a timeline. So this is the paragraph he says I don't know who killed Lisa, not for sure. For many years Dan, who's a boyfriend, seemed like the most likely suspect for all the reasons listed in this book, but I've come to believe he's innocent too. I think maybe he took robo that night, meaning robitussin. Um, he used to get high on it the kids used to.
Speaker 2:That was like a big theme through a lot of the book.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think maybe he even had sex with her. The evidence suggested she was the one who took off her clothes and there was a condom nearby. But I looked back and the condom was still in the package. But the package was ripped open so it didn't seem to be a used condom I could be wrong about that, but I, that's it.
Speaker 1:That stuck out to me because it seemed like it wasn't a used condom. Yeah, there's a condom nearby, but I don't think dan was with her when she was killed. I just don't see it anymore. As far as I can tell, dan hasn't hurt a soul in 30 years since and he didn't drink himself to death like so many of the others. So he's saying he thinks it's possible.
Speaker 2:Yes, that is definitely what I found to be inconsistent, because I felt that if his hypothesis that she had sex with Dan and then Dan left her with her like clothes, her like pants down and her shirt up, and then like what is like david, like waiting in the bushes, like hopping out immediately and like stabbing her to death that time, like didn't well she's right there.
Speaker 1:she's right there, just like, I mean, but like, like, like, but also the letters that Dan didn't say anything or see anything Unless they were in it together. No, I don't think that. First of all, james Renner's just saying I think it's possible. I don't think he's actually saying that's what happened, but but I according to their letters there seemed to be a little like domination, humiliation thing going.
Speaker 2:And if that were the case?
Speaker 1:then Dan would absolutely have left her there with her panties around her ankles and just walked off.
Speaker 2:That's true and it is entirely possible that David was lurking there, but would she just have lain there like?
Speaker 1:that. Well, maybe she was standing up and David was actually watching. He seemed to have a predilection for watching and for nobody knowing he was there, because there were all those break-ins and burglaries. And he said that he did that. So that may be possible. But what I think is also possible, that nobody seemed to mention in the thing, is that David could have he had a knife so he could have told her to take her clothes off yeah, that's and then killed her. Maybe he intended to rape her and because she was screaming, he didn't or maybe, or he couldn't frame dan or he was trying to frame somebody?
Speaker 2:yeah, because he did know, or maybe he intended yeah stuff, and then she was non-cooperative and he lost his patience. Yeah, that's also true.
Speaker 1:So I don't, yeah, I don't think Dan and her had sex. I don't see that as even being a possibility.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was also confused about that, because they were like there is no signs of rape or whatever. And I'm like yeah, I mean, there's definitely other sexual things that they could have been doing, but, like, because he was referring to the condom, I'm like that sounds like he thinks that they had, you know, like penis-vaginal intercourse, yeah.
Speaker 1:Although, again, I don't think the condom was used. I know.
Speaker 2:I'm just talking shit.
Speaker 1:One condom, half out of the wrapper in the driveway.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I mean that could be used or not used, because one could use it and then like stuff it back in the wrapper.
Speaker 1:But then they don't mention anything about testing a condom.
Speaker 2:Yeah. With semen, but they also didn't do a lot of due diligence no, they didn't case no, they didn't, because there was also the he talked about that. There was also other traces of dna on her body and, like the, the potential dog hairs that were not tested, they were eventually tested, though, I found a list of items from the crime scene that was provided to Devan during discovery.
Speaker 1:Here's all the police had to work with Lisa's navy blue turtleneck had blood stains, okay, and they had picked up some hairs and vegetation. Yeah, there was white stain on the sleeve. Tested the shirt but found no semen or saliva. She had grass stains on the knees and on the backside. They tested her underwear no semen. Oral, rectal and vaginal swabs showed no sperm.
Speaker 1:They found two hairs on her body, one on her right hand, I mean, if that's the only evidence, wait, wait, and another on her left foot, and eventually they did get around to testing them against a sample from Lisa's scalp. They matched the hairs were Lisa's. A condom wrapper was collected from the ground near the scene, so that's a little different, because at first he said there was a condom half in the wrapper found at the scene. Spots of blood found on Lisa's body were tested. The samples were consistent with Lisa's blood type A, kevin's was O. The detectives had also found a brown wrapper with bloody shoe print on it. The print was from a shoe with a herringbone pattern on its sole. The FBI tested Lisa and Kevin's blood. However, the DNA from the bloody bag was too degraded. They also found a partial poem print on the newspaper found inside the brown paper bag, but they were unable to match it to Kevin. What about the dog hairs, though?
Speaker 2:Maybe they didn't, but Because in the trial, like you talked about how there were dog hairs, or the defense attorney talked about how there were dog hairs, yeah, and that Dan has a dog.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, I mean, it's entirely possible that he and her met. They had met up earlier. It's entirely possible she got dog hair on it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I have dog hair, I'm not saying that there isn't an innocent reason for there to be dog hair. I just wanted to know if they tested the dog hair. I don't know.
Speaker 1:I thought he said that they did, but I was mistaking it for the other hair they found on her.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean she could, yeah, suspect, yeah, no, I agree that dan is a suspect, but I but, yeah, if, if you excuse that, which I think is a little bit of a, I don't know, I think the phrasing is a little bit sloppy.
Speaker 1:That's why I said well, it could be I mean he, he's, he's just throwing out a theory, yeah, you know, yeah I know, like about, but like why he might think it was dan, or how dan could be connected in that way, or trying to explain why her clothes are up, since she wasn't raped right but I think that's missing. But it is the idea that like you said.
Speaker 2:Like is the? Is there a condom in the wrapper? Is there not a condom in the wrapper?
Speaker 1:like well they may, they may not have listed that it was a used condom. I mean, he's taking all of this decades after the fact, yeah, and it doesn't seem like they did a very, very thorough job.
Speaker 2:I mean um even the very true the defense attorney.
Speaker 1:Even he came by, he was like look, there are these pictures of sunglasses nobody says anything about sunglasses.
Speaker 2:yeah, that's another thing. I was like that's not important, like who going to say and the prosecutor's like, no, it's not important, like who owns sunglasses. Yeah, like, did they ever? Like look into that. Probably not, they were like trying to say it was keys here's.
Speaker 1:yeah, here's the thing. The police don't think that anybody other than Kevin could do it. Once they locked on Kevin, they refused to look at anybody else yeah and that also includes the prosecutor. The prosecutor got that b in his bonnet and he he was not interested, according to everybody that spoke to him, of even entertaining the idea that somebody else is a huge problem with policing sometimes it is they.
Speaker 2:They can very much get into tunnel and vision like kevin, even had like an alibi from his parents yeah, although I were like they were, like they couldn't possibly know that he's really there, or something well, I wouldn't.
Speaker 1:I wouldn't take an alibi from a parent at face value either, because parents are going to protect their kids I mean, yeah, but it's like it's worth looking more into. Yeah although how could they disprove it or prove it? Because the only people there were I don't know.
Speaker 2:That's their job, though, to disprove or prove it you, you, yes, but you can't.
Speaker 1:You can't if there are only two people and one person says they have it and that person is a father of the suspect, like they couldn't prove that, like he was at the scene of the crime, like they had no evidence of that. I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that Kevin should have ever been a suspect. He never should have been. I'm just saying I personally, anytime I hear that a kid's parent is the alibi or that a spouse is an alibi, I say fuck that.
Speaker 2:I don't believe it at all. I don't want to grant you that, but I'm saying the burden of proof is on them and they didn't have anything. They had no proof that he was there.
Speaker 1:No, I know, I was talking only about the alibi yeah, but that is not an alibi you can prove or disprove, because the only people there were Kevin and the father.
Speaker 2:On the other hand, like the witness, statements from the friends of Dan are equally uncredible. Yes, I agree, because they are also biased.
Speaker 1:I absolutely agree, I'm not disagreeing with that, I'm talking just in general. When it's something like you, there's only two people yeah, the suspect, and then the suspect's parent or spouse or partner or child they're going to. There's a huge possibility that they are possibly lying, but you can't prove or disprove that because there's only the two people I get that, that, but if I mean like, if that. And they weren't trying to prove or disprove that. But I mean, dan's only alibi was his dad.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and yet they took that much more seriously.
Speaker 1:True. Well, they locked onto Kevin, and I'm not disagreeing with you at all, I'm just saying they did lock on to Kevin. I'm just saying. An alibi of a parent for a child is not one that I would take seriously.
Speaker 2:There were such assholes and they were interrogating Kevin in the middle of the night and they were like you can do whatever you want, but you should really take these three fucking lie detector tests. It was bullshit.
Speaker 1:The lie detector test that they used was not good at all.
Speaker 2:I mean, they're not really good period but nowadays there's something like 90 accurate rather than 70 accurate like um I don't like lie detector tests anyway yeah, no, they're not good no, it's kind of like it, just another kind of intimidation technique absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 1:But yeah, they locked.
Speaker 2:They locked on to kevin because of that dumb lawyer and like when, when he like hugged the officer and shit like that, like that made me really like pissed off because I was like you know, this officer is not your friend no, but but no.
Speaker 1:So we don't think Kevin did it. But the reason Kevin got on their radar, besides the fact that the friends kept harping on it was because there was a lawyer who was being interviewed who knew somebody involving the case I guess Kevin's original lawyer not the one that actually went to trial and that lawyer that was being hired or being interviewed said that Kevin's lawyer had said that Kevin did it.
Speaker 2:My eyes kind of glazed over with those.
Speaker 1:Okay, so, okay. So Kevin had two lawyers, yep, Okay, so Kevin's second lawyer is the one that he went to trial with. He's the Nixon dude. Okay, okay, kevin's.
Speaker 1:So at the district attorney's office not at the one where it happened, but at another one close by they were looking for or maybe it was the same district attorney's office, but anyway they were looking for a lawyer. They were interviewing lawyers. They had a lawyer who came in. That lawyer said that he either knew someone or that he knew Kevin's original lawyer. And the original lawyer said Kevin did it and in the interview, hold on, in the interview he told that to the person that was interviewing him. I can't remember if she was like a deputy da or da, I don't remember, but she was high up in the in the whatever right. So she took that and I don't know if she gave it to moreno or if she was also on the case. I don't't remember. But they hold on.
Speaker 1:They went to investigate, not the attorneys. The attorneys told the police what had been told to them. They went. The police then went to question Kevin's other lawyer and Kevin, the lawyer, said I never said anything like that. Okay, so, in other words, the lawyer that was being hired just wanted. He thought it might give him an edge to being hired. He lied.
Speaker 1:But, that's when the police latched on to the idea that it was Kevin. I mean they couldn't do that anyways because it's a breach of lawyer client confidentiality. Well, yes, they were proceeding with caution is what the attorney said because, yes, it could be a breach of whatever, but that doesn't mean lawyers don't do it. But they weren't trying to get the lawyer in trouble, but they weren't trying to get the lawyer in trouble.
Speaker 1:They weren't trying to get the lawyer in trouble, but the lawyers. There were two lawyers involved. The lawyer, kevin's lawyer Thanks, john Grisham. Kevin's lawyer said he didn't say that, and then the person that Kevin's lawyer allegedly said it to said that he never said it. So it turns out the lawyer that wanted to be hired was just saying bullshit.
Speaker 2:But that's when they really latched onto it the lawyer who's saying bullshit wanted to be hired by the district attorney's office. Yeah, okay, and he thought I'm bringing in some juicy information. Okay, yeah, I get you. Yeah, I was like that's not the way to get no, um, he didn't get hired even for a district attorney that you wouldn't want to hire a lawyer that is so flippant with like lawyer, client confidence the lawyer that was being hired wasn't the original lawyer.
Speaker 1:He's saying he heard it. He knows somebody who knew the original lawyer, I see and that the original lawyer said that, not the lawyer that is being interviewed. Okay, the lawyer that was being interviewed just said he heard through the grapevine.
Speaker 2:So, even though they were like we don't believe this, but we do believe it oh, what do you mean? Like they latched on to the idea.
Speaker 1:They never said that they don't believe it at that point, even though kevin's first lawyer said he never said that, they still decided to latch on to kevin why would that lawyer say it though, when he could? Yeah, he would lose his client, he could be disbarred well, yeah, but the the whole point is moreno, the, the da who actually tried the case. He believed it and he essentially got the police into believing it. Well, that's nonsense. But moreno turns out is kind of a liar.
Speaker 1:He's gotten in trouble many times for withholding evidence how he was talking about, how he was a liar yeah and um, he admitted that he probably locked someone up in prison who was but then when he interviewed him he was like I just did what was best, or some shit like that yeah, so I I feel like moreno latched on to kevin and he wasn't interested as many people that moreno interviewed even afterward, when they kept saying somebody else was there, blah, blah, blah. He wasn't interested in hearing that. He latched on to david for whatever reason.
Speaker 2:I mean he latched on to kevin for whatever reason nobody looked at, david is the one that they should have latched on to yeah, and even, and david came in twice to talk to the police and he, he, he told the police that's what kills me.
Speaker 1:He told the police that he basically manipulated Dan's friends into telling the police that they knew it was Kevin or that they suspected Kevin. David told the police that and the police still went after Kevin.
Speaker 2:It's because he blamed it on a black man. They're like hi, father, go home. That part pissed me off and then later, like he was like he was like fishing buddies with that dude I was like how dare you?
Speaker 1:yeah I was like fuck out of here, like go be a hermit he said david toldaney, who was one of the detectives, that he went to Arabica, which was a restaurant and coffee place. Yes, I remember Arabica all day. Yeah, he went to Arabica then and sat with Tex, debbie Dreifurt and Stanley Kramer, who were all discussing the murder. That's when Kevin's young name came up and David told them he thought that Kevin could have done it. Quote Kevin left Arabica in enough time to cut off Lisa on her way home to approach her.
Speaker 1:David said he told Mulaney that was all he'd heard about the murder until he left to go to the hospital for long-term treatment on October 8th. So I can't tell if this is saying that David told the kids, the teens, that Kevin could have done it or if it's saying that David told the police he thought Kevin could have done it. It's in the paragraph where he's talking to Tex, debbie and Stanley. So I feel like he's like Kevin's name came up and he was like yeah, yeah, yeah, it's got to be Kevin, knowing that Kevin was an odd child.
Speaker 2:Yeah, All right. Yeah, it was probably David.
Speaker 1:It could still be, dan. I'm not saying it's not Dan. I'm just saying I'm not like disappointed, I mean like, yeah, you know, I mean cause they do like, like he pointed out in the book.
Speaker 2:I mean I think there's still like evidence, like towards Dan as well, well, that's what I was trying to say but it does seem like David definitely had all these history of violence and that I mean, dan's really only guilty of being a dumbass, yeah.
Speaker 1:Just that paragraph about that timeline threw me off and he only said it's possible. He didn't say that's really what he thought, he just said it's possible.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I get that, but I just didn't understand how that worked for him as a timeline also you know?
Speaker 1:no, I I don't either, other than that maybe it was like a wham bam thank you ma'am or like a yeah, um, like dan was just an absolute dick, or there's more to it that he's not telling us yeah, in which case I'm like tell me well, not the, not the author.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think he's doing what he can. But even the defense attorney didn't think Dan did it. But he said when he was talking to Jenner he said I don't think Dan did it, I don't think Kevin did it, I don't think Dan did it, I think some other person did it. And Renner was like then why did you not bring that up in the trial? And he's like giving too many options to a jury is just going to make it look like you're trying to throw things at the wall.
Speaker 2:And I mean it's true. So Dan is the likelier suspect? It's true, because that's not his job. No, His job is to ensure that his client is not found guilty.
Speaker 1:Yeah and the most likely person, other than some fabled unknown, would be Dan. I mean, come on, it's always the boyfriend. We were kind of talking about that earlier with the Katie Sepik case, right, everybody thought the boyfriend did it, even when the police, like you know, didn't do anything with the boyfriend did it, even when the police, like you know, didn't do anything with the with the boyfriend. Yeah, people still thought it was the boyfriend. Turned out it was a unknown serial killer, yep, that killed her.
Speaker 1:Well, I wonder if david could have killed other people well, I think you and I and renner firmly believe that he killed that elderly couple.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, but.
Speaker 1:I mean besides them, yeah, no, no, I agree, yeah.
Speaker 2:I would agree, because I'm like, if he killed the old couple and he killed, you know, lisa as well, then like, did he kill other people too?
Speaker 1:Yeah, he certainly tried to kill his classmate when he was a kid. Yeah, that's scary. It is scary the thing, though. Weirdly, what upset me in the book was not even the case although the case is upsetting, obviously, and it's sad that lisa hasn't and her family haven't really gotten any justice but it was the journalist in the book, the one covering the trial.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And the friend of Dan's that then became a journalist, catherine, and that dumb asshole who wrote that shitty article judging everybody who does true crime.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was like rude. Yeah, it was rude, and she's not even a good. I mean her. Her journalistic integrity has been called into question so many times.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but also uh like I like I get it like in in some, but yeah, yeah, I mean there are, there's certainly yeah there's.
Speaker 1:Well, there's also.
Speaker 2:Certainly, yes, there is some bad true crime out there and but most true crime is very sensitive, like our last book that we read about was all about, like you know, the fervor whipped up by the press, yeah, and like how much damage has like bad press done press done when it comes to like true crime and like pointing the finger incorrectly. So it's definitely not just the true crime community that has made errors.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:Cops have made errors.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the journalist, everybody makes errors. Well, she wasn't talking about the errors being made. She was talking about how disgusting it is that people are interested in true crime and how disgusting people like Renner are for writing about it. Not so much the news as true crime.
Speaker 2:Well, I didn't find that he wrote about it in a sensationalist way at all. In fact, I found it rather dry. I don't even think she was talking about it in a sensationalist way at all, in fact, I found it rather dry.
Speaker 1:I don't even think she was talking about it in a sensationalist way. She's talking about the fact that anybody would write a book. I think it was actually armchair, which called armchair detectives. So, like you and I, yeah, if we were gonna sit around and, uh, actually try to solve the case, sure, those people, yeah, and true crime writers but like sometimes that does solve cases nowadays certainly um and michelle mcnamara. I've got that book right there. I'll be gone in the dark.
Speaker 2:She helped, if you look at the, the rates of like the murder cases get solved. It's like 50 percent, yeah, in the us, yeah, so it's like you know, like there definitely is some very like icky, sensationalist true crime out there. That I think is quite gross.
Speaker 1:But again, she wasn't talking about sensationalist. Yeah, she was talking about anybody of any caliber that writes any sort of true crime or pays attention to true crime or tries to solve a true crime case. Who is not a detective or whatever are garbage that was her point not just sensationalism no but just flat out we're all.
Speaker 1:Anybody interested in true crime is a horrible person. My main point, it isn't even criticizing true crime, because there's a lot to be, lots to be criticized. I, I understand that. But and even true crime fans, we look at ourselves and are like, is this okay to do right? I think we've even both questioned ourselves even about the podcast.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean like even earlier when we made that comment. I made that comment about you know the child murders. You know like maybe children you know did it or whatever, and I'm like, oh, that's too far.
Speaker 1:You know, like well, I mean, yeah, I think most people would understand, you know, but yeah, but I don't want to be like you know, taking it too lightly and no, but like you know, sometimes you just talking about something and be, like, you know, taking it too lightly and you know.
Speaker 2:But, like you know, sometimes you're just talking about something and and you know you know, nobody is laughing at the actual crime.
Speaker 1:Yeah, nobody's doing that no, of course. Um, but you gotta, you gotta lighten the mood somehow. But my other main point, the whole reason I brought up the thing wasn't so much about the true crime diss, it was. I wanted to be a journalist. I went to journalism school. That is my undergrad.
Speaker 1:I worked at the college newspaper I'm not naive anymore were bastions of truth and that we have a duty to enlighten the world and to shed light on the horrible things. And I still believe that's true. But it took me a long time to really grasp the fact that every news source we have it's a business first. Yeah, it's a business first, and as much as we want to pretend that we are unbiased, we are not even the best of us, and certainly when you've got tv news and publishing news, the tone is going to be that which sells the most absolutely, you know.
Speaker 1:That's why fox news went from being a reputable news source, yeah, to being one that openly lies about shit or just ignore shit. And that's why cnn lean as much as they want to say, they're unbiased, leans very left right, because they know their audience. And it bothers me that journalists willfully lie, like the guy that was covering the trial.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:Who deliberately?
Speaker 2:lied.
Speaker 1:And destroyed Kevin's life, and he almost killed himself because this guy destroyed everything. I mean, he was just so. I don't know how that guy can look himself in the mirror ever and he wasn't sorry about it even. Yeah, it just. It bothers me when people willfully lie Like again. I'm not naive, I know that happens, but nowadays we're supposed to have these journalistic ethics.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Granted, granted not really, uh, legally binding in any way, but we do, I think we. I'm not a journalist anymore, uh, but journalists do have a duty, I think, to get as close to the truth as they can. And when people willfully do stuff like that and destroy lives, what a piece of shit you are. You're a disgusting human being. You're no better than the people who did the crime. You may as well have right, especially in this case, if kevin had killed himself. That's that dude's fault yep, yeah.
Speaker 2:another thing that I think about a lot in regards to journalism is just simply omission, right, like omitting important stories. If you don't hear about it, it doesn't exist. Yeah, not to give journalists a pass, but not to, you know, say they're worse than other things, because I think that a lot of professions are like that.
Speaker 1:Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 2:You know law and, of course, of course, police and government and all of these things that are supposed to be super noble and Teaching. Yeah, and of course it's corruption through and through. Yeah, a single profession, or uh, you know calling that, is not tainted by corruption and not tainted by, you know, like capitalism and and moneyed interests and yes, it's in everything, but I I get upset when it's journalism because I take it personally, because I wanted to be a journalist, so that makes me extra mad.
Speaker 1:Understandable, makes me extra mad. I feel personally offended when they do that, even though, again, I haven't done any sort of journalism in like 15 years, but it still really bothers me.
Speaker 1:And I used to be a news junkie. I used to watch the news 24-7. I used to be a news junkie. I used to watch the news 24-7. I used to read multiple newspapers. I spent a lot of money subscribing to a lot of newspapers, I did all kinds, and now I don't really look at anything anymore because it just angers me. It angers me. So our next book is going to be. Where's my phone? It is a book. It is a book, a true crime book. It is a true crime book. I didn't do the second half of my Missing Person either. Why can't I find the name of it? Sorry, I got distracted. Matt Murphy just posted something on Instagram.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, I know, let's see when is it. So we are doing Long Haul by Frank Figliuzzi, f-i-g-l-i-u-z-z-i, so that's our next book. Yeah, let me do this quick thing about the missing person. Real quick, though, okay, oh, yes.
Speaker 2:Very important.
Speaker 1:Okay, so we're talking about Giovanna Taylor. She disappeared from her home in the 2000 block of East Gregory Street, tacoma, washington, under suspicious circumstances. She was 29 years old at the time and the mother of four children. Tyler was married but had filed for an order of protection against her husband in August of 2003. In April of 2004, tyler's parents reported her missing after they had neither seen nor heard from her in approximately two weeks. She has not contacted her family since her disappearance and investigators have been unable to locate her or any persons who have had contact with her.
Speaker 1:If you have any information concerning this person, please contact your local FBI office or the nearest American embassy or consulate. The field office is in Seattle and again, they're offering a $10,000 reward and we'll post that information. I got that information from the FBI website and we'll post our sources as usual in the doohickey. So Long Haul by Frank Figliuzzi is our next book. You know, if you could, it would be really awesome if you would download our episodes like, subscribe, review and email us. Have you checked our email recently?
Speaker 2:I'll check it right now, but every time I check it I know it's probably going to be crickets.
Speaker 1:It's probably going to be crickets, but it would be cool if you wanted to email us and give us your thoughts and opinions, and we will talk to you next time. Bye, bye.
