Details Are Sketchy
A bimonthly true crime podcast, in which two friends share an unsolved disappearance or unsolved case, a crime they're most intrigued by, and talk all things true crime.
Details Are Sketchy
Down the Rabbit Hole: The Baffling Case of Rey Rivera Part 3
In this episode, Rachel brings us the final part of the very baffling case of Rey Rivera. There's no missing person case this week.
Our next book is "Long Haul: Hunting the Highway Serial Killers" by Frank Figliuzzi, which we will discuss in episode 28.
Sources:
Unsolved Mysteries - "Mystery on the Roodtop" Season 1 Episode 1
Crime Junkie - "Mysterious Death of Rey Rivera"
Mysterious Brews Podcast - "Rey Rivera"
Strange and Unexplained with Daisy Eagan - "Impossible Death of Rey Rivera"
Jennifer Bails - "Preacher Dies in Crash"
Caleb Kaltenbach - "The Suspicious Case of Rey Rivera...and Why He Matters"
Rey Rivera, Suicide or Homicide? - Miryam Moya
An Unexplained Death - Mikita Brottman
Socials:
Instagram: Details Are Sketchy - @details.are.sketchy
Facebook: Details Are Sketchy - @details.are.sketchy.2023
Instagram: Kiki - @kikileona84
Instagram: Rachel - @eeniemanimeenienailz
Email: details.are.sketchy.pod@gmail.com
I'm Kiki.
Speaker 2:And I'm Rachel.
Speaker 1:And this is, details are Sketchy A true crime podcast, and this is, I believe, episode 26?, 27?, 26.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna go with whatever number you think it is, I don't know and I don't want to have to put out another disclaimer. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I forget. Hold on, yeah, so I think this is episode 26.
Speaker 2:All right. Okay, it's 26 now, whether you like it or not.
Speaker 1:So this is episode 26. This is a third parter for Rachel's.
Speaker 2:Ray.
Speaker 1:Rivera case. We're doing the most unlikely to likely scenarios. Yes, and.
Speaker 2:I just got feedback from one listener that they like this case, so we're going to keep going on this case. No, I'm just kidding, but this will be the last episode.
Speaker 1:Yeah, my mine will be next week. So before we get into all that, I also. There won't be any missing persons this week. That's my fault, and part of that has to do with why this episode is a week late is because life has been one dumpster fire after another for the last two weeks. It sure has been.
Speaker 1:For both Rachel and I, including a death of a pet, a hospitalization of another pet, and because I'm blonde and dumb, sometimes I locked my keys in the trunk of my car, along with the spare key in the trunk of the car, and despite numerous people's valiant efforts to get my keys out of the trunk of the car, I wasn't able to do that and I spent four hours in the hot sun in a sweater, without water or anything else. You were in a sweater.
Speaker 1:I was in a sweater. It was cold when I left the house and I was expecting to be spending hours in a cold, air-conditioned room, but instead I spent it out in the heat and actually it was pretty cool for a southern New Mexico afternoon. You know it was only 80-something, but still too hot and I'm pretty sure I had a heat stroke or was about to. I was nearly passing out. I was very sick, terrible migraine.
Speaker 2:That's why I was like Santa's going to get you a flat pack of water bottles. Just don't keep it in the trunk of your car.
Speaker 1:I had a water bottle in the trunk of the car. Yeah, full of cold water, yeah, but anyway. So, yeah, we fell down on our podcasting duties the last two weeks and so this is going to be a full week late. But our 27th episode, which is our one-year anniversary episode, coming out the same day exactly a year since our first episode, we will, oh my God, yeah, we will. That will be the end of the first season. We'll start the second season with episode 28. We have a season. We will be doing a Halloween thing, if I can get my act together. Season two details are sketchier For 27,. We'll have a Halloween episode, perhaps, but Rachel and I will definitely be a bit tipsy. There will be cocktails involved. You will enjoy.
Speaker 2:Tipsy Rachel is fun.
Speaker 1:I don't know about tipsy Kiki. You're fun, we're all fun. Okay, so let's start with our episode. Again, no missing person this week, unfortunately. Okay, we got to get our shit together and work things out, but new things are coming. Season two yes. Maybe not the first episode of season two, because I will be on a boat in the middle of the ocean, but maybe episode two of season two.
Speaker 2:That's very exciting.
Speaker 1:It is very exciting.
Speaker 2:I will be here.
Speaker 1:I'll enjoy the sun and sand for both of us Mentally.
Speaker 2:I will be on a boat in the middle of an ocean. That's awesome, and my boat will have lots of sharks, so yeah, so yeah. Wonderful way to start the episode. I am on this episode. I wanted to go over the theories or well, they're hypotheses, they're not theories, but we all know color. Really. They're called theories, so we're gonna go with. I used to really hate calling hypotheses theories, because theories are like well tested and established. However, recently I've become a little bit more lax about it, so we will call them theories.
Speaker 2:But I mean interchange with hypotheses 30 something.
Speaker 1:Rachel is a lot less, a lot more wiggle wiggle room when it comes to vocabulary, surprisingly, wait, I have one question Do any of these theories involve aliens or anything like that?
Speaker 2:No, darn, yeah.
Speaker 1:Darn.
Speaker 2:I bet if I had dug deep enough I probably could have found an alien theory. Yeah, that would have been fun. But I was like I have eight and I was like that's enough. Yeah, so the and I have them ranked, in my opinion, kind of from most, or sorry, not most from like least plausible to most plausible, but with some kind of caveats for some kinds of situations. And I mean it's it's opinion based, I mean to an extent, I mean we all know that certain things are well. Obviously we don't all know that certain things are well obviously we don't all know, because these hypotheses do exist right.
Speaker 2:So obviously someone is taking some of them really seriously, but most of us know that some of these things are more credible than other things. Right? But yeah, this was just how I thought that they should be ranked.
Speaker 1:Yes, okay so Wait, wait, hold on one second. Um one more caveat before you begin. Rachel is sick, so you might hear some coughing and some sniff oh yeah, I, I forgot I was going to mention yes, and she may need a cough drop, so there might definitely you might hear her with something in her mouth, probably might be sucking on cough drops.
Speaker 2:I might be sucking on cough drops. I might be sipping tea. I'm so sorry about all the mouth sounds and things like that. I don't enjoy listening to them either. Even in my own sounds I don't like listening to them and I wish I could shut them off. Okay, so the first theory, or, if we're counting back, I guess number eight I don't know, I count in the one through eight, but maybe I should count to the may through one is free mason initiation gone bad. I knew you would like that one.
Speaker 1:Oh, you know what's awesome about that, though? My great grandpa was a freemason. Oh, yeah, yeah, my grandmother was a daughter of job, did he, did he?
Speaker 2:no, it's actually really boring. That's what. See, that's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. I'm like sure, rich people are doing evil stuff, but they're not really hiding it.
Speaker 1:No, and not all Freemasons are rich.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:Exactly, my great-grandpa was a small-town baker.
Speaker 2:Right. So, no, it's silly.
Speaker 1:I asked my grandma about it because I was like oh, what kind of secrets tell me? Tell me.
Speaker 2:She's like all we did was sing, yeah so, yeah, you, you will like this I like a good conspiracy um so this theory suggests that ray revere was in the process of joining the Freemasons. And of course this theory presupposes that the Freemasons are more than just a charity organization. I said for rich old white men, but obviously you have disposed me of the notion that it's only for the wealthy. So just dudes right.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:It is exclusively for men, though correct.
Speaker 1:The Mason part is, but they have split-offs for wives and daughters.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's what I had read as well, and that it is a powerful secret society that can grease the wheels of the world. Powerful secret society that can grease the wheels of the world. I say that rich white men don't need a secret society to grease the wheels of the world.
Speaker 1:No, they do it out in the open, exactly Way out in the open. Yeah, I mean, look at Elon Musk, he's doing it, he's shoving it in all of our faces.
Speaker 2:Exactly. They can shove it up in our faces Like they are sending their proverbial dick pic to the world and there's nothing we can do to stop them.
Speaker 1:Wait, can I ask before you continue is there any evidence that he was joining the Freemasons? Um, perhaps.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Are you going to get to it? Yeah, I have that.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay, I'm sorry. Yeah, so you might remember from last episode that, according to Makita, brotman Ray did meet with a Freemason representative on the date of his disappearance to discuss membership. Oh, you might also remember that he was reading the book Freemasons for Dummies and that the note found taped to the back of his computer made references to the Freemasons.
Speaker 1:How did I miss that? Huh, I missed that, and I even edited the episode.
Speaker 2:So there's some different hypotheses yeah, hypotheses within the hypotheses about why that might be. Some say that Ray was researching the Freemasons for an upcoming screenplay. Yeah, that's what I would have thought. Yeah, the Freemasons are great fodder for films and entertainment. Oh, yeah. Some say that he believed the Freemasons were a good networking group to be connected to within Hollywood. However, this theory hypothesizes that Ray was actually in the process of joining the Freemasons and that Porter Stansbury was his sponsor. There's no evidence that Porter Stansbury is a member of the Freemasons.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So proponents of this theory say that the note taped to the back of Ray's computer was an acceptance speech, for when Ray got accepted into the Order, the cryptic wording was made to obfuscate the intent, as Freemasons' internal workings are top secret, andasons' internal workings are top secret and revealing those internal workings could jeopardize race chances within the organization. So if you believe all the blah, blah blah and that blank check that accompanied the letter was to pay his initiation fee for entry, according to Reddit user GoldenR16180,. I'm going to be referring to several Reddit posts because a lot of these theories trace back to Redditors.
Speaker 2:And I don't feel bad about it. A lot of semi-credible news organizations refer to reddit. They're like this am I the asshole thread? Blah blah, I'm like they can do it, I can do it well, yeah, I, I have no problem yeah a lot of people reference reddit exactly yeah, um, so it's not all bullshit.
Speaker 1:Sometimes they have some really helpful information when you're trying to figure something out.
Speaker 2:And it's, you know, it's hypotheses, and people go on there like a lot of people who are interested in this kind of thing and they bounce ideas off.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah so this check was blank because he would not have known that the amount of the initiation fee would what the amount of the initiation fee would be, but that his recent 15K loan was taken out to ensure that he would be able to cover the amount, rather than for equipment for his production company, as other sources have said. Right now, I want I do want to say that this redditor, golden r 16180 uh, their posts didn't necessarily read, I don't. I couldn't tell whether or not they're like I believe in this or whether or not they're like this is a theory yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:So I just want to say that, like I'm not trying to just besmirch the good name of golden r 16180, no, no, it's a fun idea yes um, so ray's call to porter, where he had told porter he quote, had it all figured out was about him unlocking some test call.
Speaker 2:Uh, that was made to ray's house was a call telling ray that he had to get down to the lodge right away for initiation. So I guess, like he wouldn't have known, like, when the initiation was going to take place, and they're just like get down here right now, sure, and so he's like, oh shit and he goes logistically none of this shit makes sense, you know or it makes the most sense.
Speaker 2:No, it doesn't make sense. Oh god, okay, I do think that's bad. It gets worse. Yeah, okay, he's meaning for his secret initiation at a secret time that was previously unknown to him.
Speaker 2:Right, the reddit post hypothesized that ray didn't need special clothes because either the traditional clothing would be provided or that robes would be worn over whatever clothing. So they either meet in the 13th floor ballroom of the Belvedere Hotel or they initially meet elsewhere, like in, like the Freemason Lodge, but then later go to the Belvedere, maybe for like part two, phase two of the initiation, or this is where it gets a little muddy or they did the initiation and then they're celebrating at the. Some of the members blindfold Ray and take him up to the roof. They then tell Ray that he has to jump off as a final act of initiation, just like in one of his favorite movies, the Game.
Speaker 1:That is so stupid. Nobody would ask anybody to jump off the fucking roof. That would be such a huge liability.
Speaker 2:And then Ray wouldn't be like, oh yeah, totally.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:This will be fine, like he's completely like oh yeah, this is a great idea.
Speaker 2:He hesitates. But then, when they assure him that there is a pool in the conference room, he does like no, that's way far. Like yeah, he would not do it. Yeah, his fellow freemasons are shocked this was only a hazing. Now they now get to work on the cover-up. So then there's there's like more stuff about how they would have covered it up, but I didn't think that that was too pertinent. No, I think that that the information I provide pretty much covered the gist of the, the hypothesis. Yeah, so then I put a plausibility rating of one out of ten.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I mean, I just I don't understand how people can think like that. I mean, I know it has some secret rituals, but right, I, I just I don't understand why people would go from like secret rituals, like maybe like weird handshake or something, or you know reciting some bullshit, to like they make people jump off roofs.
Speaker 2:I mean a lot of people are into that, like super secret society.
Speaker 1:I know Secret order.
Speaker 2:Like I know, covert whatever.
Speaker 1:I blame the Da Vinci Code.
Speaker 2:And I'm like. I'm like it's right in front of you, like it's not that covert. No, it kind of reminds me although I don't know what goes on but it reminds me of maybe a modern day, whatever, like Gentleman's Club, where those old dudes would go and just smoke cigars and drink brandy and pat each other on the back. Is that kind of how it is? Well, I don't know, I've never been to one and pat each other on the back.
Speaker 1:Is that kind of how it is? Well, I don't know, I've never been to one. By the way, if you want some insight into Freemasonry, go watch Mozart's opera the Magic Flute, or Die Zuberflöte I don't know how to pronounce it in German, but the Magic Flute. It is the most adorable opera and it has one of the greatest soprano.
Speaker 2:I have seen or listened to it as a child, but I don't remember much of the plot, I just remember the music. Yeah, and the music is enchanting the Queen of the Nights aria.
Speaker 1:Yes, Probably one of my most favorite pieces of music just the Queen of the Nights aria. But yeah, go watch it, it's fun, it's kid-friendly. It's just the Queen of the Nights aria, but yeah, go watch it, it's fun, it's kid-friendly, it's very kid-friendly, it's a lot of fun. Little Papagino and his Papagina Is that what the name is? I don't remember. I just remember the side characters were hilarious. But I mean it's all about being united.
Speaker 2:I mean it's really quite a beautiful now our listeners have homework yeah, go watch it, even if you don't care about it, just watch it.
Speaker 1:It's one. It's a great little thing, um, particularly the 70s. I think it's swedish version. It's really adorable.
Speaker 2:Okay, okay, sorry, that's one, okay number two or number seven, depending on how we're counting down. I still don't know if we're counting down or counting up. Haven't decided is drop by helicopter.
Speaker 1:So wait, drop. Wouldn't he have more, be more banged up?
Speaker 2:he should be more banged up anyway, but here we go. So the next theory I want to present is the infamous Everything's infamous, ever since I incorrectly used infamous last week.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to get my revenge Dropped by helicopter theory. I'm trying to get my revenge dropped by on myself. Revenge on myself dropped by helicopter theory. This theory pauses that, due to the improbability of Ray landing at the location of the alleged entry point and in a completely vertical position, nonetheless, it would be far more likely for him, nonetheless, edge and tree point and in a completely vertical position. Nonetheless, it would be far more likely to for him. Nonetheless, what was I thinking? It would be far more likely for him to have been dropped directly from above the location of landing, from, say, a helicopter. As Quinn, you have screen rant points out.
Speaker 2:This scenario is extremely implausible, yeah, but it cannot be completely ruled out, huh. That's why I have placed it here as the second least plausible theory to suggest an explanation of what happened, while Detective Michael Bear, formerly of the Baltimore Police Department, reported that there were no helicopters who flew in that area and that low, and Makita Brotman reported in her book An Unexplained Death, if you recall that there were no reported aircraft flying in the area that night, according to air traffic control reports. She also reported that hotel employee Gary Shivers reported having seen a helicopter flying low in the area around the date of Ray's disappearance. However, as Detective Michael Baer once again pointed out, if this was the mechanism of disposing of Ray, why wouldn't the helicopter deposit him in, like the harbor instead? And a helicopter certainly wouldn't be a subtle method to deliver Ray to the entry point in the conference room of the Belvedere.
Speaker 2:As anyone knows, a low-flying helicopter is incredibly loud and noticeable and would have certainly been witnessed by multiple Belvedere residents and Al-Bahr patrons. However, one more checkmark towards the plausibility meter is that we may recall that one Porter Stansberry was the proud owner of a helicopter which he used to arrive, in quote style and quote, at Ray and Allison's Puerto Rican beachside wedding. So, as the kids say, your chances of getting tossed out of a helicopter through a hotel conference room window, not window roof, are low but never zero. I rate this plausibility as two Out of 10. Out of 10.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Okay, so that pretty much sums it up. I don't know if I have anything else to say about the the helicopter theory. Only the only other thing I had to say is that I couldn't find out if proponents of this theory believe he would have been tossed out of the helicopter alive, or dead yeah, and I couldn't decide why would he be in a helicopter?
Speaker 1:did we go over that?
Speaker 2:well, I, I had thought if it was this scenario where somebody he knew allegedly called him and could have been like do you want a helicopter ride, you know, over Baltimore? And then he might have been like oh shit, yeah, and like that could have been a reason. Okay, right, mm-hmm, but yeah, that's unlikely, it's not. It's very action movie.
Speaker 1:James Bond.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's not very. Yeah, exactly yeah. What do you think if? If he was thrown out of a helicopter, do you think it would be more plausible that he would land in that vertical way if he was alive or if he had already been killed and his body was tossed out?
Speaker 1:I can't imagine that. Either way, you would fall vertically, right. Yeah, see, even even when people jump, they don't necessarily land vertically. Oh no, that's another.
Speaker 2:That's another issue that we're going to get into a little bit later.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, yeah.
Speaker 2:But, yeah, like you would think, because I would think, right, if he had been thrown out against his will, yeah, alive, that he would be kicking and flailing his arms, yeah, right, yeah.
Speaker 1:And even if he were dead already, Then he would have been yeah, and he would have been probably pushed out not like I mean, it's dead weight, so he wouldn't have been like picked up by his armpits and dropped.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that would have been and his limbs would have been just like loose and yeah yeah, exactly yeah, no, i't think, unless he had been like bound up like a mummy, which he wasn't Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we know. But even then, I mean, if he were dead when they tossed him out, right, it's dead weight. You can't, you're not going to be lifting somebody from their armpits to drop them vertically, you would carry them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, very true, vertically you would carry them, yeah, you know very true, or you would just roll them and shove them off the side. Oh, yeah, roll him like horizontally, yeah, in which case he wouldn't have landed like that at all. No, no, so yeah, pretty fucking implausible. Yeah, okay, here is an interesting one. A piece of Belvedere molding fell on Ray, so this theory is a bit of an odd duck, hypothesized by Redditor Alien. Underscore Mysteries.
Speaker 1:So there are aliens in this.
Speaker 2:There's not aliens, but presumably this person also posits alien-esque conspiracies and they have a YouTube account as well. Interesting on the night of his disappearance and then, upon exiting, made his way to a side stairwell that exits onto oh, quote. Made his way to a side stairwell that exits onto North Charles Street End, quote. They allege in their post titled, I believe, ray Rivera was killed through terrible coincidence, final. They have several iterations of this hypothesis. That's why it's called final, and this Reddit post was shared on a subreddit of the same name, so I'm assuming it's their subreddit that they made. The subreddit is called alien underscore mysteries, uh, which this post. This was posted, sorry, approximately four years ago. This stairwell led up to the roof of the conference room. Led up to the roof of the conference room where Ray's body was found.
Speaker 2:So they're alleging that Ray had drinks at the Al Bar Then he found this stairwell in the back of the Al Bar that supposedly leads up to the roof of the conference room, and then he made his way up there for some reason. He was heading home and and maybe he wandered off the wrong way, or there was another way off the roof and he went there and and was standing and taking a look, or just taking a pause, or for whatever reason. Once on the roof, I said ray paused to drink in the scenery or anything. I was going to say smoke, but he didn't smoke. And while standing up there a piece of the belvedere's ornate cornice broke off and, with the assistance of a couple of bounces off of other jutting bits of the Belvedere, took an arched tumble straight down onto Ray's head, killing him instantly and shoving his body through the relatively weak rooftop into the conference room below.
Speaker 2:This entire hypothesis is hinged on a single comment made by Makita Brotman on a Reddit Ask Me Anything session, where she responded to a question about whether any research had been done on the whole. She referenced the analyst that Allison hired and their projections that Ray could have made the jump from a running start of 11 miles per hour and that the independent analyst, who she had also hired, had concluded the same. She also mentioned that the hole looked more damaged from inside the building than the outside, and while she did not mention any trace of blood tissue or other physical material on the inside of the hole, which is what the questioner was asking about, she said, quote it was much more destructive underneath than on top, with collapsed girders and plaster everywhere, end quote. The Redditor, alien underscore Mysteries, has really seized onto the phrase quote plaster everywhere, end quote to extrapolate that this could be caused by the obliteration of the alleged piece of cornice coming apart upon impact.
Speaker 2:Of course, this is probably just drywall that makita is referring to yeah, that would have been my guess, and here I have some images on that I can show you. Of course I don't have the images. I could post these images, but here is the image that Alien Underscore Mysteries is talking about. Here is a piece that they have outlined in red that they believe is a missing piece of molding on the outside of the Belvedere. That they believe is the piece that fell off and hit Ray on the head. Some commenters didn't believe that they saw any piece missing at all.
Speaker 1:I don't see anything. It is.
Speaker 2:I thought I might see an inconsistency, but it's difficult to tell if it is a piece that broke off or if it's just an inconsistency in design. And even if it is a piece that broke off, it would be impossible to tell when it broke off right or how it came to be that way. It could have broken off during construction yeah or any time in the many, many years of the belvedere's existence yeah, I don't okay whatever.
Speaker 2:And alien mystery and I also said that even if the piece of moldy or whatever exploded on impact, surely ray would have been pinned underneath it and would have been covered in the material? Yeah, and why would that piece of building take more damage than the soft tissue of a human body? Right, it wouldn't. No, also, ray's head was pretty damaged, but most of the damage seems to have been to his face and cranium, not to the top of his skull, like you would expect to find if something had landed directly on top of his head or, as we'll talk about later, if he had landed directly head first. Right, the other thing that really rules this out is that the Google images can't seem to verify that this alleged stairwell to the top of the conference room from the Al Bar even exists. Yeah, from Google images and multiple reports, it seems that it doesn't exist. It was not something that I recall Makeda mentioning in her book. She did mention that there was a stairwell, but it was a stairwell leading up to the roof of the Belvedere, not up to the roof of the conference room. Yeah, if he could have gotten up there, it might be plausible, although unlikely. But given that the stairwell doesn't seem to exist, that lowers the plausibility significantly.
Speaker 2:And here's the images that I want to show you. So here's alien mysteries image, and from this image and from the line he's drawn, it makes it look like there is a path. Okay, but here, hang on. Let me show you this other image. But when you look at the same area from a different angle, you can see that there is no path.
Speaker 1:No, there is no path.
Speaker 2:You can't get up to the conference room roof that way no, you'd have, you'd be climbing all over exactly, yeah, so unless ray was climbing all over all the rooftops of the belvedere and he would have had to take jumps and shit like that yeah, yeah, so in case we forget to post the thing, the area the so-called path has, like it looks like maybe air conditioning units.
Speaker 1:It's got some raised. Like he would have had to, he would have had to do a lot of climbing and jumping off of things.
Speaker 2:It's not a stairwell and a path to the conference room roof.
Speaker 2:No, it certainly is not, it's certainly not so I would call this theory maybe plausible if he could get up have gotten up onto the roof at the stairwell he went on a strange rant about how Porter is innocent, with a special emphasis about the gag order stuff and all of the language that is very similar to language that we've seen from Porter's team and from people who have made statements like on the Crime Junkies podcast about Ray Rivera I recommend listening to that if you want to hear an example of that who have received a cease and desist and had to make an official kind of statement about misspeaking about porter. It contains very similar language to that. Now, it may just be that this person believes that porter is innocent and so is using those sources to construct a very similar argument, or it may be that this is somebody yeah yeah, allegedly allegedly, allegedly so yeah, but so, all told, I rated this a four out of ten.
Speaker 2:I thought that the the thought of something falling on him was interesting, yeah, but when you look at it closer, even if he could have gotten up onto the roof, I don't think that the mechanics of it would have worked like that no, and it's kind of. It's kind of cartoonish, right. Yeah, if you think about it, yeah, it is the kind of thing that would be like you wouldn't expect that to happen, but maybe it could happen.
Speaker 1:It's not impossible, but it's improbable.
Speaker 2:Exactly, yeah, so that's why I rated it a four, mm-hmm, maybe a 3.5. Okay, okay, so number four, although after I put this reading I regretted where I placed it is that someone threw ray off the roof of the belfadil. Okay, um, I didn't have a lot to say about this hypothesis, because the physics of it just don't work right. So if the man himself would have had to take a running start getting up to 11 miles per hour and then thrown himself with as much momentum as possible to have made it to this spot, it's not possible for someone else to have thrown or pushed him off with that amount of force.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no.
Speaker 2:Like he was not like a baby.
Speaker 1:No no, he's a full grown man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he was a 250 pound 6'5 man.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like you cannot do it. No, you're not just no, no.
Speaker 2:Unless, you're a giant.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Even a giant cannot do it.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:You know, like you can't do it, no, so I probably should have placed this higher because it's just not possible. But I placed it here because, even though it's not possible, this theory was given some credibility. Like in the media and in Makita Brown's book Like it was given like a whole, like chapter, or maybe it wasn't a whole chapter, but she gave this serious consideration and a lot of people have given this theory serious consideration and so that's why I placed it where I did, but I rated the plausibility zero. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Would it have been possible if somebody say maybe not threw him, but like took a run and like pushed him?
Speaker 2:Maybe if he was running with them, mm-hmm, like I would think he would have had to be running with them.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, I mean he did have drag marks, but like, yeah, again, like, how would you have the strength to drag somebody? Like, imagine if you're like, what's that sport where you like swing that heavy ball around in a circle, or yeah, and then is it shot, put right, yeah, yeah, and then you just throw it. Like you would have to like build up enough momentum, right yeah, build up enough momentum, right yeah, and you would have to have an extraordinary amount of strength to build up enough momentum to have launched him.
Speaker 1:You would have had to been like one of those competitors You'd have to been like one of those people who can pull the airplanes just by themselves. But I mean, how likely is that?
Speaker 2:Because somebody like that is very strong, but that kind of strength doesn't have.
Speaker 1:It's not throwing strength, it's different, exactly Catapult. Yeah, maybe they got a catapult up on the thing and they were drunk and like, hey, let's do this 'll be fun.
Speaker 2:That's why the cameras were off I did not put that down as a theory no, no it's our new theory um don't take it out of context folks yeah, no disrespect to ray or his family.
Speaker 2:We do not seriously entertain the idea that ray was launched by a catapult, yeah okay, um, so the next one is that ray was hit by a car on the roof of the parking garage and that his body flew off and down to the roof of the conference room. Okay, so this hypothesis seems to have originated from the Oval Mask, spelled M-A-S-Q-U-E, and was presented on the Unsolved Mystery subreddit about four years ago. This Redditor and their sister were watching the Unsolved Mysteries episode when, according to the post, op's sister attempted to calculate Ray's trajectory from the highest possible point and found that scenario unlikely. In discussing scenarios, the two came up with an alternative explanation that although the distance to the parking garage was 20 feet, which was still a significant distance, although it's less than half the 45 feet that he would have had to, 45 feet out yeah, that he would have had to go from the very top of the Belvedere, it's still a significant distance. That the force of the vehicular impact, of the vehicular impact a vehicular impact would have caused significant momentum to drive Ray's body out far enough to reach the point if alleged impact in the conference room ran. This, whatever I was writing, is a mess. Let me start over. Okay, although the distance to the parking garage was 20 feet, which is still a significant distance, the force of a vehicular impact could have caused significant enough momentum to drive Ray's body out far enough to reach the entry point of the alleged impact in the conference room, 20 feet away. They also hypothesized that this would explain the damage to Ray's right shin pelvis and testicular damage. They also postulated that this was why Ray was never spotted in or on top of the Belvedere, because he never entered the hotel, but only the parking garage.
Speaker 2:While this hypothesis does have a lot more plausibility than previous theories, there are some major issues with this one as well. A point in favor of this one is that multiple external experts have weighed in that Ray's injuries are consistent with a car accident or blunt force trauma. However, there are concerns about whether or not and it also is consistent with what allison reported that the medical examiner told her personally that the leg injuries were not consistent with the fall right um. However, there are concerns about whether or not the short length of the parking garage would allow enough space for acceleration to speed sufficient which they estimated to be 35 miles per hour to throw Ray's body onto the conference room roof. However, the point that really kills this theory is that, according to the calculations of Miriam Moya, author of Ray Rivera's Suicide or Homicide, who we're going to talk about more later, but who, according to her website with the aid of Google Translate, is a multidisciplinary forensic and judicial expert and one of the best reconstructionists in Europe.
Speaker 2:Her multidisciplinary specialties are traffic accidents, impact biomechanics and crime scenes. She works in Spain's Ministry of Justice in the Forensics Department and teaches in the United Nations University and the European University Institute Postgraduate Program. And you're probably like why the fuck do?
Speaker 1:I care.
Speaker 2:But you're going to care. More on her findings later. But it was her analysis that found it would have been impossible for Ray Rivera to have leapt or been thrown from the roof of the parking garage and have landed on the conference room roof at that location in anything other than a horizontal position, which would have made that impact whole impossible Exactly.
Speaker 2:However, we know, know. Oh, there I go. We know from the alleged impact crater that ray would have landed, have had to have landed in a completely vertical position, so this theory is ruled out. It is, however, not too far-fetched, and I do give credit to its authors for a pretty smart hypothesis, so I rated this a 5 out of 10. Okay, what do you think about that one?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, other than the fact that he would have gone horizontal, it seems like it would probably have been more probable, especially because you and I have both independently researched the injuries and it is more similar to being hit by a car than by jumping, and the other thing that they didn't really go into, but like what would compel him to have gone up to the top of the parking garage.
Speaker 2:That's another thing that I thought about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, why would he be there? Yeah, that's what I was thinking Like. Does he have a car there?
Speaker 2:Exactly. I mean, he was like parked like near there, uh-huh, but like why, yeah? Is he supposed to meet somebody?
Speaker 1:Well, yeah that would be my thought. So his car wasn't in the parking garage. No, it was near the parking garage.
Speaker 2:It was near the parking garage, okay, so we finished the car on the roof.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what did you rate it?
Speaker 2:I rated it a five. Okay, number six is Ray committed suicide. Okay, here's the part where my my uh written notes say see image photos. For this note we're gonna read ray's note.
Speaker 2:That was taped or what we guess is written by ray yeah, we don't 100 know for sure it was probably written by ray, yeah, but we could also possibly say maybe it was written by someone else and planted right, but we're gonna assume it. Assume that it was probably Ray, okay. Okay, I have to zoom in because this is really small and this was another Redditor who transcribed this. So this is their transcription of it, based on images, based on the image from the unsolved mysteries. So, if you recall what I said in the last episode, the note was like typewritten, like really teeny tiny yeah, and so there's.
Speaker 2:Some people took stills of the. They like showed some pictures of the note briefly on unsolved mysteries, and some enterprising individuals took stills of it and blew it up and tried to transcribe it. Okay and so this is God.
Speaker 1:There are some nerds out there. I love it, I love it. So this is God. There are some nerds out there, I love it, I love it. This is one of those attempts, so Take it with a grain of salt, yeah.
Speaker 2:They did their best work. Okay, all right. Brothers and sisters, right now, around the world, volcanoes are erupting. What an awesome sight. Virtue and more non-separable. What virtue unites, death will not separate. That was a well-played game. Congratulations to all who participated. I hope you enjoyed it, but it was time to wake up. So here I am. I'd like to welcome those who accepted our invitations for membership during the game. We couldn't have done it without you.
Speaker 2:I look on this endeavor to find the truth, but for its own sake, in accepting this quest for the truth, I hope to awaken myself, with the help of others, into a man ready and worthy to receive it. Members of the Council, please note that I will lend peaceful concentration to the traditional responsibilities. In light of these proceedings, I will gladly request of this council within the appropriate time. Again, well done to all who participated. I accept or expect.
Speaker 2:The council has invited all the players who gave their lives to this pursuit so that they might join us Hence here or there Tom Hitting, Rayburn Blackholder, john something Travolta I believe it is Stanley Kubrick. Fare thee well, rob or Bob Rosenberg. Before I continue with my instructions for the council and dates taken the prizes for my service, I'd like to allow Porter Stansberry to choose his prize Now. Porter, won't something Words by claiming something I'll just take back Now that the game is finished. I expect the council to recompensate this is interesting because that's not a word Right those who have given to this venture, along with myself. These players should be made five years younger by the council. Rivera blank Rivera, allison Jones, elena Rivera, angel Rivera, my dad, angel Rivera, my brother, brad Hogg, skipping the name part for now, that was the notes of the transcriber, porter Stansberry.
Speaker 2:He didn't do it himself, porter Stansberry, he didn't do it himself. Brothers and Sisters, our land of achievements has seen many ideas become new innovations since my game has begun Radio Frequency Identification, digital Music Players, portable and Otherwise. Something Blotted Out by water damage, the blotted out by water damage, symphony Blotted out by water damage systems, something else blotted out by water damage. Something else blotted out by water damage to drill and shale, water damage. Dvd, hdvd, hdvo, water damage, rv, the human genome, genetic engineering, cloning, sudoku, water damage, the Ford cell, overnight express shipping, wi-fi, internet, ethernet something water damage. Mpeg, jpeg, mp3, aff, invisalign, the DE water damage, robot, muscle milk. The rights, patents and proceeds for all of them should have been transferred to me by now. I know that our something, porter Stansberry, has created a way for you to do so In Europe. You can't visit me in the flat in Venice or Madrid, although if I'm in Spain, I'll probably be in the Obey question mark. In Asia, you'll be able to find me in Thailand. Another job well done, porter. I will keep the bad houses in Las Feliz, california, and this one house in San Francisco, although I'll be looking for a new place in Baltimore and perhaps some other cities.
Speaker 2:I'd like to briefly mention some movies, books and music I found very inspiring and compelling. I'd like to meet any of you who helped contribute to these works the Matrix 1, 2, and 3. The Family man, national Treasure, the Da Vinci Code Eyes Wide Shut, confessions on the Dance Floor, demon Days, ten Emperor's Tales. Maybe November Rain Horse slash, home by Nove, they don't know. Meet joe block. Minority report, star wars, one through three, lord of the rings, one through three, fight club sloven. The game payback. And specifically, let me say that I expect M Night Shyamalan to continue coming up with great ideas and great movies. I certainly enjoyed his movies the Sixth Sense, the Village, the Others Signs Unforgettable Final Section Could Barely Read.
Speaker 1:You know what that sounds like to me.
Speaker 1:Yes, found poetry, it sounds like to me found poetry. It sounds like slam poetry, not slam found found poetry. What is that so? Um, when I was in high school and I was doing creative writing and I I would write a lot of poetry, uh, one of the things you can do, particularly if you're kind of like stuck or whatever, is just take things right, like write down things that you see, snippets of things you hear, and you just sort of just word vomit it essentially and just let it go, and sometimes it'll make sense and sometimes it doesn't, but the point is just to kind of get your brain working. Yeah, you know, some people do it really well, where they can take things and then make a poem that actually sounds like something Mm-hmm, but a lot of times it just sounds like nonsense. Yeah, and so to me that's what that sounds like. Yeah, and so to me that's what that's like. I almost immediately was like you know, I've written similar things around that same time, that is a hypothesis that people have that this is a writing technique.
Speaker 2:Yeah, although I mean, I have never poet, but you know writers, we all were dumb. I mean, yeah, you know, I think Ray Bradbury did a lot. You know writers, we all were dumb. I mean, yeah, you know, I think ray bradbury did that a lot. You know, I had never heard that term found poetry, so I will have to look that up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that is some kind of writing technique, that that he's like just free writing, um, yeah, letting ideas flow, and that it will hopefully turn into something like maybe like these, these actors, these movies like this is the kind of feel that he's going for yeah, a lot, yeah, if you're, if you're ever stuck, if you ever have writer's block, a lot of the advice is just write, gibberish just yeah just put words on paper and maybe something will hit. I mean, if people read my journal, it would be a lot of that. It would make absolutely no sense. I would come off sounding like a psycho or something.
Speaker 2:That's what I had thought too, and I think we also didn't. We talk about that a little bit with, like some of the Lucy Leppie notes in writing as well yeah, that if you take certain things out of context, you can extrapolate a lot of hypotheses from them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, you got to be careful when you're looking at somebody who's a writer, because you're compelled to just write shit down all the time and it doesn't make sense.
Speaker 2:yeah so there are some spots. I want to draw it now.
Speaker 2:The fbi, or whatever, uh, found that they didn't find this note to be consistent with the suicide yeah, no, I don't see in any way how that's a suicide note however, some people do believe that they have found messages or whatever within it that you know could be signs of a suicide, although they're not. It's not written in the typical, of course, fashion. The suicide notes are written in right, right and like typically if you write a suicide note, you don't like it was taped up really small and taped onto the back of his computer like it was really kind of hidden away.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's that's weird.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that is weird right, and another thing could be what if this was something that he wrote, which we're supposed to be talking about? Only suicide? But what if this was something that he wrote? And then somebody maybe had access to his computer and was like this sounds weird, let's put this here like this and make it look weirder. That could be a thing that I had thought about as well, but, um, okay, so let me read back some phrases that people think yeah point to suicide okay.
Speaker 2:Whom virtue unites, death will not separate. Yeah, so isn't this like a Freemasons pledge or something?
Speaker 2:like that I don't know. I know this part, brothers and sisters. Yeah, I believe that. No, the volcanoes are erupting. Part. That's random, but I believe that whom virtue unites, death will not separate is. And that was written in latin but it's interpreted I believe that that is supposed to be like a freemasons thing. That really, that phrase really excites the freemason hypothesis people and it also gets the suicide hypothesis people going. This part as well, the part right after this, was a well-played game. Congratulations to all who participated. I hope you enjoyed it, but it was time to wake up. So here I am, the players who gave their lives to this pursuit. Now the game is finished, I expect the council to recompensate those who have given to this venture along with myself. These players should be made five years younger by the council Bunch of his family and friends. Yeah, those are really the parts.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't. None of that seems yeah Like no. None of that seems yeah Like no no. Some people are like I, would be more convinced that To me it's not this. But if somebody's going to say that it's not, a writing exercise. Is that like he had a psychotic break or something?
Speaker 2:Well, that's our.
Speaker 1:I know, I know but like I don't think any of those things. Yeah, really no, because I mean, if you think he mentions the da vinci code there, right, like that point in time people were all into that um like secret societies and stuff, and it's not like, and none of that is stuff that isn't readily available for everybody to know, Even in 2006,. Internet standards they were available everywhere. It's not a secret. So it's not like he went through some actual secret right.
Speaker 2:That is public public knowledge all of that yeah, so there's a definitely a lot of different hypotheses around this note. So yeah, but I wanted to get your views first on whether or not you I don't think it's a suicide note.
Speaker 1:Yeah I agree lots of people can talk about death and not commit suicide and a lot of people commit suicide don't necessarily talk about death yeah, and like he doesn't really even really talk about it exactly. Yeah, I think I think that's reading a little too far into it right, I agree.
Speaker 2:So some other hypothesis around the note that is not psychosis are of course the writing exercise one right that he was writing in code to allison in some way, that he was writing a blackmail letter in code to porter or someone else associated.
Speaker 1:Okay, I mean some of that stuff points to him, maybe questioning Porter's doings.
Speaker 2:He mentions Porter a lot and there are some phrases where he's like Porter didn't do it himself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, stuff like that. Yeah, that's what I mean, where it's like, hmm, it's a little yeah, there is another connection and here is another.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like I said, hypothesis is that maybe someone else wrote it and placed it there to present a certain concept of Ray, or that, like I said, said right now that it existed and then someone was like print, yeah, and put it back there, uh, to again present a certain image of ray. Another thing that possibly ties in with that remember last episode when we talked about how the cops that had raised computer and when allison went to pick it up, they reported that somebody had been calling and repeatedly trying to get the cops to release the computer into their recognizance Recognizance is that applicable to computers?
Speaker 2:They were trying to get it released to them, but they couldn't say who it was, and so that possibly speaks to somebody who wanted something that was on the computer, but there's no, there is nothing that indicates we found this on ray's computer yeah even like. We found a file of this note on ray's computer right there's nothing like that. Yeah, now, that doesn't mean they didn't find that information it just means that they didn't report that they found it.
Speaker 2:There is an astounding amount of information that they didn't report on or that seems to have. The information seems to have just trickled off into not reporting it or nothing happened with it. We had talked a lot in other episodes as well about reasons why people think that Ray wouldn't have committed suicide, that he didn't have a history of mental illness, that he seemed to have a really positive outlook on life. In miriam moya's book she talked not a long. She talked about like how people have like attributes that are considered like risk factors for suicide, like depression, like, um, trying to make amends right with with your loved ones, trying to give away your possessions, withdrawing things of that nature, right, and that Ray didn't have any of those. Like he was acting a bit odd, right, and we'll get into that, but the pattern of his behavior wasn't necessarily consistent with a suicidal pattern, yeah, no. And she also talked about how Ray had these positive attributes that people associate with low suicide risk factor. Right, he was financially stable, he was in a stable relationship, he had a really strong family support system. He was religious he wasn't like super religious. We had like a church community, yeah, um. And he had like a positive outlook on life. He had these plans for the future and these are all things that decrease, right, your risk factors for suicide.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and makita broughtman does talk about how you know these cases where people didn't have those kinds of, like obvious symptoms, right, yeah, woke up and it seemed like they they committed suicide. However, in that chapter, when she dug into their cases, they did have underlying factors, yeah, and people just didn't really notice them. Yeah, and when you dig into ray's case, like he didn't really have those underlying factors some people talk about, oh, like he had all this debt, right, because they had talked about, right, that didn't come out good, how he had this, whatever, like that $80,000 debt to Agora, but that wasn't like a debt debt if that makes sense. That was supposed to be money that was lent, that he was going to be compensated for, and then some when he turned in his video that he had done for that Oxford Club conference, and so that was not an issue that would have been weighing on his mind. It didn't become an issue until he passed away.
Speaker 2:Right, the only debt that they really had was the $15,000 of debt on Allison's credit card, which, in their financial position, seemed like an amount that they could handle, and so that wasn't really a consideration either. That wasn't really a consideration either. So yeah, it's not to say that again. He couldn't. Some people hypothesize that maybe he committed suicide, like under duress, right, like that somebody said to him like you better do this or bad things will happen right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I guess that is possible. Right, but wouldn't it just have been easier to kill him than to do that?
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, you'd be less likely to be arrested for it if they did it themselves. I mean, it's only been recently that people have been starting to get arrested for coercing somebody to commit suicide, but still, I don't think that that would be. I don't know. I don't feel like he seemed like somebody who would automatically think that it would have had to have been years-long people fucking with him. Very true, and that is possible.
Speaker 2:And, of course, the method right was a method that he would have been most averse to. He had a very known fear of heights, to the point where yeah, no, then he wouldn't have done that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly no.
Speaker 2:His brother, angel, reported that he wouldn't even like to climb up a short ladder to place the star on top of a Christmas tree.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So it seems highly unlikely that, even if he had been compelled or desired to commit suicide of his own accord, that that would have been the method that he would have chosen. I don't know if he was a gun owner. I couldn't find any information on that. I don't know if he was a gun owner. I couldn't find any information on that, but death by gunshot is a the most typical way for a male to do it.
Speaker 2:Exactly, I would think that like it wouldn't be that hard to obtain a gun on the street. No, I mean, I don't want to like go over different methods of suicide, but I would have thought he would have chosen something else, there were so many other easier ways.
Speaker 1:Exactly that wouldn't have, I mean, unless he was a masochist, that's not the way he would have done it.
Speaker 2:I mean that's not information, but it doesn't seem like he was right from the information presented.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, no, there would be evidence. If he was a masochist, you know, like if you, if he was a masochist, then yes, he would have climbed the ladder and put the star on the tree, exactly, yeah, I, I don't know.
Speaker 2:That makes it even less likely that he committed suicide makita had like a whole bit about jumpers right and how they have a real high impulsivity level and while she did talk about right like instances in his youth where he was known to have somewhat of a temper and how right he was said to have argued with his Olympics coach that got him kicked off of the Olympic team but those stories were all when he was quite young and it didn't seem like in his later years there was any kind of instance that indicated an impulsive nature.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:It seemed quite steady, yeah, so yeah, all of those things seem to point towards no Right, I didn't put in like accident in terms of like whoops, I tripped and I fell off the roof, because that is as unlikely as him being tossed.
Speaker 1:Like if he had just tripped he wouldn't have gone on the roof.
Speaker 2:No well, he wouldn't have gone on the roof exactly. But even if he had been like standing on the edge of the roof and like tripped, he would have just gone straight down and certainly not to that spot Right. Tripped, he would have just gone straight down and certainly not to that spot Right. I put the plausibility of suicide as a seven, which I thought was pretty generous. It's very generous. I thought that, yeah, I thought that was quite generous, but I know that a lot of people really consider suicide and I know that that was like the official verdict right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it just doesn't feel right, exactly.
Speaker 2:And there's a lot of instances right where the family and stuff is like this doesn't match so-and-so. And then when you dig into it, like it kind of does. But this is not one of those cases no it's not Both in, yeah, any of the characteristics of Ray, his life or in the method of his death.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So again, improbable, yes, but not impossible.
Speaker 2:But very improbable, yeah, yeah. So again, improbable, yes, but not impossible, but very improbable, yeah, okay. So number seven is that Ray dove off the roof under a delusion of grandeur caused by psychosis. Okay, now remember how we read the note, and I said that the FBI had ruled that it was not a suicide note. Yeah, however, they did rule that it had patterns consistent with psychosis, and their ruling was that Ray was under an episode of psychosis, and for a long time I'm kind of giving my spoilers away For a long time. That was what I believed and agreed with, because I did agree that the message has a lot of patterns consistent with psychosis and that that type of behavior might be consistent with the dilution of grandeur.
Speaker 1:Because Of all the council bits and stuff.
Speaker 2:It kind of sounds like he's giving a speech, exactly Like you're giving a speech, like there's celebrities there, mountains are exploding. Yeah, we're going to give people back years of their life. He's going to get all these houses and all these great places. And people have talked about this list of movies. Right, one of the movies the Game is a movie that stars, I guess, alec Baldwin, if I'm remembering correctly, and they talked about this in the episode of Unsolved Mysteries and that as part of this, in this Alec Baldwin is this dude who's got like a good job or whatever. I'm sorry if you I've never actually seen this movie. So if you've seen this movie and you're like you're butchering the story, I'm so sorry. Uh, but he's like disillusioned with his life or whatever. And then he I gets invited to play this whatever like game you know like life is a game and we're playing this.
Speaker 2:Rich people like you know mind fuck kind of game and part of this game where I guess near the end right, he has to jump through a glass ceiling, through like a building. He jumps through this glass ceiling and then he like wins the game or something like that, and the glass ceiling dome kind of looks like the dome ceilings that are on the roof of the conference room.
Speaker 2:Yeah, people hypothesize that he and the FBI people, the FBI also hypothesize that he believed that he was, you know, breaking through, you know like some kind of simulation, like the Matrix or something, and that he is going to gain something immortality or some kind of something.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Right, I can kind of see that.
Speaker 2:And if you are under an episode of psychosis, you know your brain is what is processing all the sensations around you, right, and telling you what's real, and when you're under psychosis, your brain is telling you that things that are not real are real, and so it's very difficult to distinguish, and near impossible to distinguish, what is actually real from what is part of the dilution, and you can't really tell right, because that's the information that your brain is giving you, right, and so that would be a reason that would compel him to do something that would totally not be something that he would ever, ever, ever do Right In normal circumstances. And disorders like schizophrenia and bipolar disorder those are the most common disorders that cause episodes of psychosis. Yeah, other kinds of things, like some kind of drugs, can cause episodes of psychosis.
Speaker 2:However, he was clean, right he was clean right, and he didn't have a history of any of that either, and so this does seem very possible and very possible. And Ray was acting odd right. He was acting kind of paranoid.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the break-in things that might have been the score.
Speaker 2:He was acting kind of paranoid. He was acting the break-in things that might have been the squirrel.
Speaker 1:Yes, the break-in thing. Well, it was definitely not a squirrel. Well, no, I know.
Speaker 2:I was just remembering the squirrel thing, the break-in things and his behavior and him going to the track with Allison, him getting excited and calling Porter and saying I figured it out. Those are kind of slightly odd behaviors. Yeah, and also his friend, tom. Did I just mention the name Tom Hiddleston or something like that? I'm so sorry that I forget this man's name. I don't think he was friends with tom hiddleston or something like that. I'm so sorry that I forget this man's name I don't think he was friends with tom hiddleston that's an actor.
Speaker 2:Yes, his name was tom. God, I would have to go back to my other, the, the, the gentleman who was a, a tv evangelist who passed away in in a car accident under slightly weird circumstances in africa and was also associated with agora.
Speaker 2:Um allison said that that ray was that that those circumstances made ray really nervous yeah and so those kinds of things could be taken as like he's getting paranoid, like he's having like paranoid delusions. Yeah, so from what I presented so far, psychosis with the delusion of grandeur seems highly compelling. Yes, as a rationale to explain what happened, mm-hmm. However, here's a few reasons why it may not be as compelling. Okay, hit me with it. Yeah, so Ray did not have any family history of psychosis related disorders. Okay, and psychosis related disorders have quite a high rate of heritability. Yes, for psychosis or sorry, for schizophrenia. Schizophrenia is highly linked to heritability, with studies showing a range of 60 to 90% heritability. Yeah, with many papers I read saying 90 is closer to the range, right? Schizophrenia also typically manifests in men in their early to mid-20s, while it can manifest, while it tends to manifest a bit later in women. Ray was in his early to mid-30s.
Speaker 2:He was 33, I want to say so. While it is not impossible, it's improbable. He would have been an outlier. Yeah, in both age and heritability. For the disorder yeah, same thing for bipolar right. According to jama, the journal of the american medical association, the heritability association for Bipolar Disorder is possibly even higher. While some sources reported a range of heritability as wide as 44 to 90 percent, jama psychiatry reported a range of 70 to 90 percent and called a bipolar disorder quote highly heritable. Age of onset for bipolar disorder was even younger than schizophrenia.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you figure that out, pretty young yeah.
Speaker 2:Like teenage. Yeah, yeah, typically between the ages of 15 and 19. Yeah, and while they said it could manifest at any age, it almost never manifests after age 40. So at age 33, ray was not outside of that range, but again he would have been an outlier in heritability and age of onset occurrence.
Speaker 1:But there's also, like with bipolar disorder, like there's obvious signs. Yes, and aside from a handful of like odd behaviors, that's not bipolar.
Speaker 2:Yes, there definitely are signs. Right, and with schizophrenia as well. Right, with bipolar. Right, you get the manic and depressive phases. With schizophrenia, you tend to get like catatonic behavior.
Speaker 2:Um, that's, I mean, there's definitely more to it, so that's just like yeah, real service level but, aside from that slightly odd behavior, people didn't really notice right around him that he wasn't acting like super out of character, right, right, and especially I would think that his wife would notice. So, and here is the other thing that I find to be like hey, wait a second. So in certain circumstances that we had mentioned earlier, ray was acting odd, but odd occurrences that were verifiable were happening. So he acted odd when his home was broken into or attempted to be broken into twice, right, two nights in a row. Yeah, that is a verifiable occurrence, yes, right. And it's a weird and scary occurrence, yes, so it's not typically with. Of course, these things can happen, right, and if you were experiencing psychosis, certainly that could be a terrifying circumstance, but it's terrifying even without it People trying to break into your house Absolutely.
Speaker 2:But what to me would be more compelling would be instances of those kinds of reactions to mundane occurrences.
Speaker 2:Yes yeah, that's the kind of thing that you look for with psychosis yeah, that which is ordinary and mundane, causing paranoia paranoia that that ray is suddenly, or with delusions of grandeur, that ray is suddenly, yeah, acting grandiose, taking extravagant risks, thinking that that he is somebody really really important, yeah, or that he can do something really important or powerful, like a superhero or like the president or god even. Yeah, those are the kinds of things that people, under delusions of grandeur, believe, right. Well, if you're experiencing like paranoia with psychosis, you know you might believe that, like somebody is laughing at you if they didn't say anything at all. You might believe that somebody is listening to you. You might believe the government is tapping your home yeah, you might believe, you know that somebody is coming to get you.
Speaker 2:You might believe that aliens are going to abduct you, right things of that nature, and he would probably want to share those things with his wife because he would sincerely believe them to be real. He would not know that they're not, that they're not real, yeah, and so if he was feeling like scared, like something outsized is coming, coming to get him, he would want to protect her and he would want to tell her hey, I learned about this thing, right, and she would be like whoa, that's not a thing, babe, right, right, yeah, so it's, it's not true that you just wouldn't fucking notice, yeah, the signs you wouldn't notice I have a question though can you just have a psychotic break without there being an underlying issue?
Speaker 2:I don't know. That's a good question. There's another kind of disorder it's called like schizoaffective disorder, who have psychosis and it's not caused by like a substance abuse and but it doesn't quite fit the symptoms of like schizophrenia or, uh, bipolar. But they have like two types of it. They have a type that's called like depressive schizoaffective disorder, that's like closer to schizophrenia, and then they have a type that is closer to bipolar, that's more manic. I don't know if you can just go into psychosis without any reason at all. Did you find something?
Speaker 1:So when I looked it up, it said it can be a symptom of serious mental health conditions such as schizophrenia, bipolar disorder or severe depression. But it can also occur on its own.
Speaker 2:Did they say under what circumstances or why that would occur?
Speaker 1:I don't know.
Speaker 2:I haven't read the whole thing, although I would think that, even if it occurred on its own, there would have to have been some sort of underlying trauma, not mental illness necessarily underlying cause, but maybe the doctors don't know what that underlying cause is, because there of course is a like neurological mechanisms right that cause psychosis, and I I don't know all of them, but one of the main mechanisms oh wait, here I have.
Speaker 1:I have information. It says it is possible to experience psychosis without having a mental illness. This is called secondary psychosis and it can be caused by a number of other factors, including drug or alcohol misuse, a physical condition like a brain tumor, dementia or HIV, aids, a side effect of prescription medication, a head injury, childbirth, a traumatic experience and usually high levels of stress or anxiety. A traumatic experience and usually high levels of stress or anxiety. They are usually short-lived and can be treated by addressing the underlying conditions. Symptoms include changes in thinking, behavior, feelings, hallucinations, delusions. It still feels like it wouldn't have been instantaneous, though Right.
Speaker 2:I mean now, what I was going to say about psychosis is that what I know about the mechanism of it, which is a very simplistic understanding so if you're like a doctor or a psychiatrist, don't at me Is that it's caused by like an excessive flood of dopamine, yeah, like a shit ton of dopamine in your brain, yeah. So, yeah, I would think that something I was going to say, that something that caused that kind of mechanism, but I could, but still, there has to be a trigger, and he doesn't seem to have any triggers in his life.
Speaker 1:That's what I was going to say, unless he was stressed out about something and didn't ultimately share life. That's what I was going to say, unless he was stressed out about something and didn't ultimately share it.
Speaker 2:That was what I was going to say. Like if there is external factors right, there are external factors that are causing that stress, then that could have caused it, but those external factors, what are those external factors at play, and are those also a factor Right In his death?
Speaker 1:Yeah, because I was also thinking, you know like I suffer from anxiety. Yeah, and often it is things that are never going to happen Not in a million years, right, you know, but they can be. So maybe it's the word acute that it can feel like they're going to happen, yeah, and yeah, I can have them, and nobody else around me will know that I'm under that kind of stress or pressure you know of pressure, stress or pressure, you know.
Speaker 1:So I wonder if maybe I mean that could be a thing too, although I still don't think he has. I don't, I don't think that was a, I don't think that's his thing.
Speaker 2:But yeah, because we're going to talk about that in a second, but until I learned this other information, which I found more compelling, that was, I found that it is very compelling. It is very compelling and it is a very plausible scenario, far more plausible than the others, absolutely, and so I redid it in eight out of ten. Okay, I agree. Okay, number eight is that ray was killed off-site, possibly by a car accident or blunt force trauma, and moved to the conference room of the belvedere, and that the scene was manipulated to make it appear like a suicide. Now, that sounds, on its face, like it's not super plausible. However, I read a book.
Speaker 1:She's been telling me about this book for a week.
Speaker 2:And the book was Ray Rivera Suicide or Homicide by Miriam Moya, who I told you about. We went over her credentials earlier, so it's probably not necessary to go over them again, but she's a forensics expert.
Speaker 2:Yes, In many in many different fields Fields, yeah, and many fields which happen to be relevant to this and she happened to get a bee in her bonnet about this case and she contacted journalist Stephen Janis and she said look, I want information about this case because I want to calculate the trajectory of race for all of my how did she hear about it?
Speaker 1:just so curiously, because she's from spain, yeah, um, yeah, but um ray spent some time.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's right spain. Yeah, yeah, yeah so so yeah, his case might kind of be a thing there.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, gotcha. I forgot about that, and so she contacted this journalist from Baltimore and so he's one of her main contacts and through him and through, I also assume, like her contacts, through like forensics stuff and police-y stuff.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Very technical terms, she was able to get her hands on some really important things that Others did not, makita and others were not able to get a hold of, which was the police report and also the medical examiner's report.
Speaker 1:Yeah, she had some ins.
Speaker 2:Yes, it would seem, and she presented a lot of compelling information, facts, and then also her hypothesis based on the calculations that she has made, her hypothesis based on the calculations that she has made, and so I'm going to try and present those, and I didn't really take much notes about this part, so hopefully I will present those in order. So the first thing she really talked about is she talked about that there is a lot of saw him at a bar talking or arguing with another individual and she said that the police went and interviewed people at the bar but they were not able to find anyone else who had seen Ray and it seemed like that lead kind of fizzled. It seemed like she has a lot of complaints about the police report but they didn't really like follow up on it and like who was the other individual? What did they look like? You know?
Speaker 2:like like if this person saw and could recognize Ray, surely they could describe. Yeah, they should have taken the description from her. Exactly the other individual, but there was no description, no police sketch, nothing of that nature, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, which it feels like they'd already made up their minds Exactly.
Speaker 2:They certainly had. That's one thing that is already like whoa, what the fuck? Right, because if you see somebody arguing with somebody on a night where they fucking disappeared, like that makes you think things. Yeah. Another thing is with the car. So I have kind of a semi-correction on my other correction. You'd ask if the car was in the parking garage and I said it was near the parking garage, I believe. Now somebody's probably like you're wrong, but I believe it was on, parked on like the parking lot outside of the parking structure. Okay, does that make sense? Because it was ticketed by a parking attendant? Okay, however, it was visible from the street and the in-laws were able to spot it from the street when they drove by. Okay.
Speaker 2:Other reports have said that they didn't find any evidence inside Ray's car. Well, according to the police report, they found some hair inside ray's car, but there's no kind of description about what kind of hair was it. What color of hair was it? Was it head hair? Was it body hair? Was it animal hair? Short, long, yeah, exactly. Did they send it for testing? No, what happened there? Disappeared right into the ether.
Speaker 2:No more, no more commentary, no more. Nothing about the hair. So that seems like something that you would want to check it out, right, yeah, even if it's like this is Ray's hair and he brushes hair, or like a couple of hairs fell out of his head, like just fucking check it, yeah. And another thing is that they found drops of blood yes, drops of blood outside a certain individual's home. And what individual was that? Our dear friend Porter Stansberry. What individual was that? Our dear friend Porter Stansberry. They found drops of blood on his side kitchen porch steps, and they took samples of this blood and reportedly sent it off for analysis. And what happened? No more reporting on it Disappeared into the ether.
Speaker 1:And they never got tested either.
Speaker 2:They supposedly sent it off and then there's no more news about it. Gotcha, yep. So then the next part is that Allison received a weird call from like a Chicago hotel on either the 19th or the 20th I don't quite remember of May, and, and they're just like we can't trace it. No follow up, and that's it. Like what is it? What is going on? Yeah, they just didn't really check. The next thing that's weird is Ray was found. I think the note was found. I want to say either than the 21st or the 22nd.
Speaker 2:Ray's body was found on the 24th, on the 23rd, when Porter Stansbury called a police officer and said allegedly, or according to Miriam Mya's book, according to the police report, right uh called a police officer and said that he felt threatened by ray's note and when the police officer tried to get more information about why that would be or anything from him, then he was like, oh, I can't give more information without speaking to my lawyer because I'm involved in this other, like the SEC investigation. And then he asked if he could leave town to, like, visit his wife, and the cop was like, yeah, you can leave town because you're not a suspect and, like Porter, seemed irritated.
Speaker 2:By the fact that he's not a suspect, or that the fact that the cop would say the word suspect or something like. I don't know, Gotcha, but obviously like that was on his mind, right? Or why would he be asking if he was allowed to leave town?
Speaker 1:Right, and Maybe because of the SEC thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's possible, and during that conversation Porter referred to Ray in the past tense, saying something along the lines of he was my friend Well that's a red flag.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so then the other Wait, don't do that, oh sorry. The other Wait don't do that, oh sorry. So the next part is she does all these calculations about his jump. There's like six or seven pages of just math, which is awful, right, and I mean I just obviously just flipped through it because I was like these are a lot of numbers but according to her calculations, she believes that it would not have been possible for Ray to have landed in that location from any of the possible points. However, we do know that the expert, that Allison hired, who I believe was a physicist, and the expert, some kind of analyst I'm not sure if they were physicists as well that Makita hired said that it was possible, but she believed that it was not possible.
Speaker 2:Miriam, and she also, I guess I will give what I felt was the most compelling information of the entire fucking thing. She used photogrammetry, which is the science of measuring things in photographs, essentially Using photographs of the image of the hole and the conference room Right, and she just measured the fucking hole which remember we had talked about before. Yeah, what is the size of the hole? Right, and makita's book she was just going my memory and she said it's the size of bigger than a frisbee and smaller than a hulu, and in the police report they didn't measure the fucking size right At all. Yeah, so Makeda has used this photogrammetry to measure.
Speaker 2:You mean Miriam, huh Makeda, you mean the other lady, I'm sorry, not Makeda Miriam Moya has used the photogrammetry, basically using the known size of other objects in the photo to measure the size of the hole, right? So yeah, exactly Science. Size of other objects in the photo to measure the size of the hole, right so science, yeah, exactly science. And I had thought myself. I was like hasn't someone done that? And here she has done that, and let me find the picture so that I can give you the exact measurements that she took. So the hole was 3.13 feet wide, or it was 3.13 feet long wide at its biggest point is 3.13 feet at its length at its width.
Speaker 2:On the other side it's 2.2.22. And then it there's a narrower section and that section is 1.67. Now here is the which she provides a scanned excerpt from the medical examiner's report that we can see that they have reported that Ray's body weighed 251 pounds, was four inches in height and that the widest part of ray's body in his trunk would be 47 and 49 inches. So the widest part of ray's body exceeds four feet in width. So in basic language it's not fucking possible for Ray's body to have gone through the hole, because Ray's is wider than the hole is wide.
Speaker 1:He was four feet wide.
Speaker 2:Wider than four feet wide.
Speaker 1:That seems like a lot.
Speaker 2:He was a big dude, because I'm five feet. Let me show you a picture of this dude's shoulders.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but still like four feet's, like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 49 divided by 12 is 4.083333.
Speaker 1:I'm just saying, that's really big yeah. Because, like I mean, I'm 5'1", so if you take the 13 inches that would put him right at like his chest would be from my feet to my tits.
Speaker 2:He was a big dude, but that's really big. Yeah, he. I mean he he had a swimmer's body Like he had really broad shoulders and he had a narrow waist. Yeah, he had that type of body. When I read that I was like how much, what else can you say? That just seems really big. It does seem really big. Do you want to find more?
Speaker 1:pictures of Ray. I mean, no, I'm just like it automatically made me think of, like Michael Phelps, yeah, so I was just wondering how like wide he was a lot of these pictures he's like turned to the side.
Speaker 2:Oh wow, look at that one. I mean he looks pretty broad yeah, but that still doesn't feel like four feet to me, that's I'm just telling you what, yeah, this is oh, I know, I understand, I'm just and I would also think here was my thought as well that after nine days of decomposition wouldn't his body have desiccated somewhat? So, if anything, wouldn't his size have shrunken somewhat?
Speaker 1:Maybe Men's chest size. For a six-sport male is typically between 42 to 44 inches.
Speaker 2:All right. So, it's not that much bigger.
Speaker 1:No, it just, it just feels big.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It does feel big Because that's like most of me, you know, in terms of my length, yeah, you know so that that just feels weird to me, but okay okay, he would have been a head turner, I'm sure, yeah.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I don't. I don't think you can really get around that If the man is bigger than the hole, then he did not go through the hole.
Speaker 1:No, he would have. At the very least he would have been scraped yeah most of his flesh would have been scraped off.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that was not the case. No, no, so that is that one bit of information is the information that, to me, was the most compelling. Yeah, man is bigger than whole. Yeah, therefore, man did not go through whole.
Speaker 1:Right yeah, science, math yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, in my review I said said the math is mathing, um. So there there is more information. There's information about his injuries, right and uh, she had. Medical illustrator marie duenheimer I'm probably pronouncing that wrong illustrate all of the injuries on Ray's body that he had Head and neck injuries, abrasions and lacerations of the forehead, fractures to the maxilla zygomatic bones, mandible avulsion of the mandible, mandibular teeth, multiple skull fractures, multiple base of skull fractures.
Speaker 2:Sub, sub subglyal it's kind of hard to read because it looks like it's written with a little typewriter. Sub-gly-al-go it's kind of hard to read because it looks like it's written with a little typewriter. Uh-huh, hemorrhage, subarachnoid I know that word Hemorrhage. Hemorrhage of anterior neck muscles. Torsion injuries, contusion of the chest, abrasion of the torso, bilateral clavicle fractures, fract fracture of the sternum, multiple rib fractures, laceration of the pulmonary trunk, arterial septum, left and right ventricle of the heart, bilateral lung contusions, laceration of the lungs, laceration of the liver, laceration of the right groin, fractures of the right pelvis, hemorrhage of the right testicle. Exterior injuries abrasions of the upper and lower extremities, lacerations of the lower extremities, fracture of the right tibia and fibula.
Speaker 2:What she says that she doesn't see, that she expects to see, is she uses more scientific language. Basically, if he landed on his head right, caving in of his skull right and fractures of his vertebrae right, like his vertebrae would have shattered right and they didn't. There's no cavian of his skull, there's no dura matter everywhere right. Um, if he went in from his feet, she said she would have expected she described accordioning of the feet, yeah, and basically his, both of his feet and legs would have been completely shattered Right. But he's got this fracture on his right leg, he's got these injuries on his face and cranium and he's got a lot of injuries on his torso Right, which he said could be consistent with a horizontal fall, but of course, not through that hole Right, not anything through that hole, no. And then she does an analysis where she basically shows that these injuries could be consistent with like a hit and run Right. And she said that it could be consistent either with a hit and run where the car was braking or where it was continuing to accelerate right.
Speaker 1:So it sounds to me like she's saying intentional or accidental right so, and then somebody would have had to like pick them up, put them in the car and then drop him off in the conference.
Speaker 2:Another thing she said that wasn't reported in the police report that she expected to see is 1.5 liters of blood that would have exited his body upon impact Right. Would have exited his body upon impact Right. Makita did report that there was blood on the wall Mm-hmm when they found his body. The quantity of that blood?
Speaker 1:Wouldn't have been that much though.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's. There's no picture, there's no nothing, we don't know.
Speaker 1:They didn't even take pictures, or they're just not showing. No, there's.
Speaker 2:Unknown. It's not sure there's unknown, it's not, it's it's not available. If there was pictures, she said she didn't see anybody doing stuff like that. She said it seemed like they were very blase about the entire scene for what she saw and they didn't seem like they were treating it like she would expect to see that kind of scene treated. Yeah, so probably not pictures. But if there is pictures, they're not available to anybody.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And same with the autopsy. I have to look back on her name, marie Doenheimer, who recreated the illustrations, if you want to see the illustrations of his injuries, said that typically medical examiner's reports come with photographs and there was another, oh, x--rays. That was the other thing she said was missing no photographs, no x-rays of his body. And she also said she's like a, a medical illustrator, who she like illustrates yeah, like crime scenes, like accidents, like personal injury types of things, and she's illustrated car accidents, she's illustrated falls.
Speaker 1:And she also said that she felt that it was these types of injuries and patterns of injuries were more consistent with a car accident or blunt force trauma than they were with a fall yeah, looking at it like this in these pictures, it it's yeah, I, I don't obviously I know nothing about medicine or bodies, but it doesn't feel like that's what would have happened had he jumped or, yeah, fallen and here is the other last piece of evidence that I found really compelling while she didn't have any analysis of the blood, she did have a photograph of the blood.
Speaker 2:She did have a photograph of the blood that was found. Here's the picture.
Speaker 1:We're talking outside the individual's house.
Speaker 2:Yes, those are the steps of the individual's house and that is a picture of the blood, and one of her areas that she's able to analyze is blood splatter analysis. Yeah, and what she analyzed is that this pattern is consistent with an individual who was running out of that house. Mm-hmm, she also here.
Speaker 2:Let me show you you uh, yeah, it feels like, it looks like it was dropping yeah, a 3d image of a five foot individual right to see if that individual matched the pattern of where the blood fell. And she found that the five foot tall individual like our height approximately does not match. You can see here in the photo, like this five foot person, the blood is outside of the range right. And then she put in a person of the size of Ray Rivera and here is what she found. Tell me what you think about that. What do you see?
Speaker 1:Wait, what am I looking at? What's the middle picture it's showing? It's showing somebody.
Speaker 2:It's showing a 3D image of an individual the size of Ray Rivera, matching to the blood splatter.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I can see that, yeah.
Speaker 2:It matches, and also the other reason that I saved the photo of that I showed you of, of Ray next to this other individual, is that you can see that this other individual is quite smaller than Ray.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it wouldn't have been his blood.
Speaker 2:No, no, we can see that that seems to be based on her analysis, consistent with, if an individual the size and width of ray was running out of that house dripping blood, her conclusion is that she's not making any accusations. Obviously that's not what she's here to do. No, what she is saying is that this investigation was conducted so poorly, so many things were left, so many things were just dropped, that it is extremely negligent. Yeah, and if you, if you read, if you read the book now, I will warn. If you read the book now, I will warn. English is not her first language and she's not a writer. She writes in a lot of technical jargon as well, and so you get parts where the sentence structure is a little bit weird and you get parts where she's like writing in pages and pages of like technical jargon.
Speaker 2:But if you push, through that then you get to the really good stuff. Yeah and yeah. So you can tell that she is just absolutely affronted by the shoddy work that they did.
Speaker 1:I am too. Yeah, I mean, I don't care how busy you are, you should give every absolutely every incident.
Speaker 2:It's, it's due diligence and and what her aim is is to get this investigation reopened and thoroughly investigated a second time yeah so although that seems like it would be hard, considering all the missing evidence yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:I mean like his body could be re-examined. Well, was it cremated? I don't remember yeah I don't remember if it was cremated, but I'm sure that there are things that could be re-examined. Yeah, but yeah, it is difficult. It is difficult, yeah, given that things have disappeared and that things. Yeah, but anyway, so I gave that. I don't want to rate anything like 10 out of 10. I gave it a 9 out of 10.
Speaker 1:Yeah, all right.
Speaker 2:Nothing is 10 out of 10.
Speaker 1:Well, it certainly has the science and the math to back it up. Absolutely is 10 out of 10.
Speaker 2:Well, it certainly has the science and the math to back it up. Absolutely. And if and when I see something more compelling that says, hey, whoa, that's wrong and I can prove it and I have more compelling evidence, then absolutely I would love to take a look at that. Yeah, but wow that uh.
Speaker 1:Photogrammetry yeah that's what really got me yeah, yeah, it doesn't feel like any of the other ones would be possible, giving the math and the science exactly so, uh, yeah, that wraps up, okay, my ray rivera case and we are not making any accusations absolutely we are not. We are not stating any opinion, no um at all no, okay, so I know you have to get going it's quite late absolutely uh. So we probably won't do any gossipy stuff, not that anything.
Speaker 2:Uh shit for Some of our listeners are probably celebrating, but don't worry, our what next episode will probably be like 75% gossip.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because we'll be. We'll have had some alcohol. Okay, episode 28. So what two episodes from now? So November will be our book episode, and that will be long haul hunting the highway serial killers by frank figliuzzi. Um, looks quite short, so should be manageable. It is new, though we maybe we gotta learn to pick some ones that have been out for a while. Uh, someday, anyway, that's a problem for another day. A medium amount of new. A medium amount of new, yes, and we are going to be better about doing this.
Speaker 2:We're trying, okay, but we also have real life stuff, so we appreciate your patience.
Speaker 1:We do appreciate your patience. Life really threw some big curveballs at me this week, last two weeks, so hopefully I can get my life back together and back on a schedule you're doing great no, I know, I know I'm doing the best I can, but I grant you a thousand gold stars.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you, I just need to get back on a routine that I let slide over the summer. Just haven't caught myself back up yet, but we will be adding some things hopefully coming the second season. Maybe not at first, depends on how the semester goes, but eventually we will, and we'll also be getting these up on YouTube at some point. Book two episodes from now. Episode 28 next week little celebration party, hopefully. Uh, a halloween related crime, halloween spooktacular yes, and I think that's it. Yes, yep, we will be better prepared. Thank you so much for your patience and your listening and we love you.
Speaker 1:We do and okay, so like, subscribe, download, review, Follow. Follow us on our personal Instagrams and our show social medias and we will see you next time or talk to you next time. Bye.
