Details Are Sketchy
A bimonthly true crime podcast, in which two friends share an unsolved disappearance or unsolved case, a crime they're most intrigued by, and talk all things true crime.
Details Are Sketchy
Vanished From A Busy Public School: The Disappearance of Kyron Horman
In this episode, Rachel brings us the disappearance of Kyron Horman. We also discuss our book pick "Long Haul: Hunting the Highway Serial Killers" by Frank Figliuzzi.
Our next book is the classic "Helter Skelter" by Vincent Bugliosi and Curt Gentry. We will discuss it in episode 32.
Sources:
Crime Weekly Podcast - episodes 136-138
Prosecutor's Pod - "The Disappearance of Kyron Horman Part 3
ABC News - "Kyron Horman Case" by Neal Karlinsky and Sarah Netter
Portland Press Herald - "Bizarre Twists Upstage Child's Disappearance" by Anne M. Peterson
KPIC - "Source: Terri Horman Vague on Kyron's Doctor Appointment Date" by Anna Song and KATU.com Staff
The Oregonian - "Kyro Horman, Missing 10 Years: A Timeline" by Lizzie Acker
KWG8 - Dede, Terri Unaccounted for at Same Time" by KWG Staff and KWG.com
Socials:
Instagram: Details Are Sketchy - @details.are.sketchy
Facebook: Details Are Sketchy - @details.are.sketchy.2023
Instagram: Kiki - @kikileona84
Instagram: Rachel - @eeniemanimeenienailz
Email: details.are.sketchy.pod@gmail.com
Uh, what was it that you had said about? You made some kind of comment about Picard and his tea, and I didn't catch it because I was caught up in the grocery drama.
Speaker 2:Um, I think it was that you had said Earl Grey, hot yeah. And I said something like I always thought it was funny he had to say hot Right, you know? I mean I guess you could have iced tea, but who makes iced Earl Grey Very true, Particularly a British person.
Speaker 1:You would think that at least hot would be the default.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so grandma didn't understand the reference. And so I was saying the captain of the enterprise Picard always said Earl gray hot.
Speaker 1:I like sometimes in the summer, I'll make like an iced lady gray. I think that works really well. Ice, because it has those that additional like lemon and orange flavor in it. That I think is really summery and and tastes great iced. But Earl Grey not so much. I prefer that hot, yeah. So tea, tea, what kind of tea do you guys? Oh, I got an email for our email but it's like seems to be someone trying to sell us some kind of podcast managerial services, so I didn't respond and I figure that's not something that we're doing or can probably possibly afford to do but we did get an email.
Speaker 1:Woo Go us.
Speaker 2:Yay, one email.
Speaker 1:It was like how are you managing your podcast? Like well, we're not really.
Speaker 2:Okay, so, oh my God, we haven't done this in a long time. I'm Kiki and I'm Rachel. Oh right, okay, I'm Kiki and I'm Rachel, and this is Details Are Sketchy, a true crime podcast, and this is episode 24, I believe. I have no idea. Let's go with whatever number you think it is.
Speaker 1:No, it's not 24.
Speaker 2:28. Or it could be 32. I don't know.
Speaker 1:We're starting a new season and it's like episode one of season two.
Speaker 2:After this book. Yeah so next episode we'll start season two.
Speaker 1:All right, that makes sense.
Speaker 2:So we apologize for missing a week. Yeah, I had been on the crime cruise, yeah, and when I got back I became immediately sick yeah and I've had.
Speaker 1:I've been sick myself and also my kids have been sick, so it's like subsequent illnesses that, yeah, I've had to deal with.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so yeah so the, the cruise and the and the illness put me back a couple of weeks. So I'm a few weeks behind in everything, grading all kinds of shit, and I was stupid and put a necessary oh no, don't say that had the either first or second part of a project, of a final project, which is a big thing that they need done before the final project is due. Due the Sunday. I got back, yeah, which is stupid, that's dumb, that is really dumb. I should have made it either the week before or the week after that.
Speaker 1:Spend too much time with me now, because that's a very Rachel thing to do.
Speaker 2:No, I think I'm secretly masochistic. Oh my god, yeah, no, I'm pretty sure I do it to myself all the time.
Speaker 1:Let's see how hard I can make my life. Yeah, yeah. I think that's all of us, though I'm sure it is I'm constantly making silly errors that make my life more difficult or neglecting things that make my life more difficult, because I neglected them.
Speaker 2:Yeah so what can you do? What can you do, okay, so.
Speaker 1:So we're not doing an additional missing person.
Speaker 2:No, because your whole case is a missing person case.
Speaker 1:We're doing a whole hour.
Speaker 2:So for the third or fourth episode in a row. We don't have a missing person. Although again we do have a missing person, just not the way we usually do it. Starting next episode, we'll get back to our regularly scheduled programming, but before you start on yours, do you want me to talk about Crime Cruise, or do you want me?
Speaker 1:to do that after. I don't know if we want to talk about it before or after. I mean it's crime-related. It is crime-related, let's talk about it first. I guess I mean it's not like.
Speaker 2:I have a lot to say, but it was cool. We went to. The cruise was to Haiti and it was supposed to go to Jamaica, but there's a typhoon or something, so we got moved to Dominican Republic, I think. I don't know, I didn't get off the boat there. I did it Haiti, though. That was kind of fun. I was a hot tomato colored goth for most of it, because I am not used to the humidity.
Speaker 1:Tomato goth. That is a new subcategory of goth. Yeah, well, that's how red I was.
Speaker 2:That's how red I was, and it wasn't from like sunburn.
Speaker 1:It was because I get red when I get hot you were, though, like you sent me pictures and some video of like the people on the cruise, and they were all dressed in like light colors, like white and blue, and like sundresses.
Speaker 2:And I was the only one in black. Yeah, Absolutely. And I have deathly pale skin, so I look like death warmed over. I was looking like a true goth, except for the times I was a tomato-y red.
Speaker 1:You should have brought a black lipstick.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there you go, let's see. So that was that I almost didn't make it on the boat. Yeah, because I got dropped off at the wrong boat and I had already checked in my baggage before I figured that out. So I had to run around with another guy who was very kind and helped me find my baggage thankfully it hadn't been loaded yet and then I had to pay an exorbitant amount of money to take a taxi to the correct boat, even though it wasn't that far away.
Speaker 1:But way too far for me to walk, like that always happens, right and it always involves like additional fees.
Speaker 2:Yeah and um, of course it was cash, so thank god I got some cash, but I couldn't tip like I probably should have. So that was part of the reason I was eight to make a week off.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Crime Cruise itself the crime part, the true crime part. It's much, much smaller than Crime Con, like there were only, I think, five or six speakers, but they did multiple things. So, like Chris Hansen from how to Catch Predator, is that the show?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah something along.
Speaker 2:I hate to say it but I've never watched it. I'm aware of it, but I've never watched it.
Speaker 1:But he did oh is that the one where they, like you know, like entrap pedophiles and shit? Well, it's not technically legally entrapment?
Speaker 2:Well, because they're not cops. Right, there are cops there, you just don't see them.
Speaker 1:Then what's the difference between what they do and entrapment?
Speaker 2:He explained the legalese, but I don't remember what it was.
Speaker 1:I mean, I'm not saying it's bad because fuck pedophiles. Yeah, I'm just curious there legal a legal difference and whatever, and he explained it but, I don't remember some kind of like fine line that they don't yeah, and so we saw him.
Speaker 2:He did a couple of things. Um, I had a vip one so I got to go to more stuff than the than other people. Matt murphy was there. He did several things.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like he had a private private in quote marks talk because it was private with like 100 people, right and right. They all had meet and greets and whatever. Paul Holes was there, he was very kind. I met him again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, cheryl McCullough, I believe, is her name. I don't know, she's like a crime con staple and a crime crew staple. I always forget her name and I honestly didn't really know who she was until recently. But she used to be a homicide detective or maybe still is. I'm not sure, but I know. I think she works on cold cases or something. She has a podcast, uh, and she teams up sometimes with nancy grace and they talk about some of those cases. Yeah, yeah, and so she did her thing as well. She had several that were all kind of connected. It was a cold case that had several parts. Then we had had nate easton from.
Speaker 2:I forgot what his news is. I have the button somewhere but I don't. I misplaced it. Life goal keep my mug shot off. Oh, I can't read his. His little, his news station is very little at the bottom, yeah, but anyway, he. If you were riveted by the the valo case, the one where she married the guy and they thought their kids were demons or zombies or something and she killed them and everybody's like where are your children?
Speaker 1:where are your children?
Speaker 2:he was the one who got uh them on camera in hawaii yeah so that was him. He's done many other things, but that was his claim to fame, I think. Um so far, but I met him. There was another dude whose name I cannot remember and oh did.
Speaker 1:Did she? Do you think? Did she truly believe her children were demons, or was that just her excuse?
Speaker 2:I think she truly believed what she was, what she was selling.
Speaker 1:Yikes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was very religious. Okay, here, instead of me trying to remember from my sick fogged brain. Okay, so Chris Hansen, cheryl McCollum, not McCullum Okay, I apologize. Paul Holes, nate Eaton, matt Murphy and Derek Lavoisier, who I wasn't aware of until Crime Cruise, but he had been a police sergeant on Rhode Island and he is now co-host of the podcast Crime Weekly. Isn't that what you just did? Yes, that is the one I was just listening to. That's him.
Speaker 1:He's the only one I didn't get to meet. He seemed pretty reasonable for a cop.
Speaker 2:He seems like a. He seems like a. Well, he's not a cop anymore, but he seems like a Well for an ex-cop. He seems like a cool guy.
Speaker 1:His partner was. She was a little going a little ham with a yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, we'll talk about that, but anyway, he's the only one I didn't get to meet, and I don't remember why I didn't get to meet him. I think maybe I was hanging out with my new friends. I met new friends who also were going to Crime Cruise Dee and Shibley who may or may not be what's his name who may or may not be listening.
Speaker 2:Listening, hello, if you are. But yeah, I don't. He's much younger than I would have thought, so young. He was one of the youngest people hired. He was hired at 20 to be a cop. Um, you know, we can discuss whether or not that was. That's a good age, um, I mean, I think that. I mean you can go in the military at 18, but I also have questions about that as well.
Speaker 1:I don't think that's good either, especially since you can't even like fucking drink or smoke.
Speaker 2:No, and I think your frontal lobe should be developed before you're allowed to hold a gun, that's what I was exactly going to say, but he seems to be a good cop. Yeah, he seems to be a good guy Not digging on Derek.
Speaker 1:What the good cop yeah he seems to be a good guy, not digging on derrick, what's what?
Speaker 2:the fuck is his name? Derrick? What's his face? Uh, lavoisier lavoisier.
Speaker 1:No wonder I didn't remember his or lavoisier.
Speaker 2:It looks french, I don't know.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna go with lavoisier, okay, yeah, um, let's go with the fancy, but I went to.
Speaker 2:I went to one of his things and he seemed very nice. I didn't get to meet him there was a family feud tonight.
Speaker 2:I didn't participate because I knew I would like seize up, even though I knew, like most of the answers, I would if I hadn't known that. I would seize up like if I were good under that kind of I'm usually good under pressure, just not that kind of pressure Right, were good under that kind of I'm usually good under pressure, just not that kind of pressure right. Um, I think I would have kicked ass on family feud because I knew the vast majority of those answers. Nice, but anyway. So we met those people.
Speaker 1:It's small potatoes compared to crime con as in terms of like people going as well is the name of a fantastic episode of the X-Files that everybody should go watch and what else.
Speaker 2:I don't know. It was just. It was kind of a fun day. I felt kind of bad for some of these people, particularly like Paul Hulls and Matt Murphy. Yeah Well, matt Murphy especially because he was like the tallest dude on the ship. He kind of stuck out like a sore thumb and so women just flock to him you know, and paw holes as well, and and they're trapped, they can't like, they can't really leave. It's a boat, um, I mean, they can go up to their rooms or whatever but I mean they were, everybody was very kind in the water with the sharks.
Speaker 2:Yeah, everybody was very, very kind and, uh, lovely and it was a good time.
Speaker 1:Honestly, if a bunch of people were crowding at me, I might choose the sharks well they even if they were like attractive women touche or dudes both, but I don't know like, despite if they're attractive, you, you would still get overwhelmed?
Speaker 2:oh, I'm sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, they talk about getting I don't think I would be cut out for fame yeah so well.
Speaker 2:Hopefully our podcast makes us famous even if you were surrounded by. I was overwhelmed all the time I was overwhelmed. All the time I don't I don't I don't blame them.
Speaker 1:You were surrounded by like 50 Matt Murphys.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, well, Well, I don't know, I don't know, that's a trick question why?
Speaker 1:do you think that women are more interested in?
Speaker 2:true crime. That is the question, isn't it? And they ask that all the time at these things um and on the true crime podcasts and stuff and everybody gives a different answer, right?
Speaker 2:some it's because we are usually the victim, right, and we want to know how not to be, and in some weird way, we think by watching these things we can figure out how not to be. Or because they're interested in the science of it, the forensics. And I think people are just naturally curious, particularly, I think, women in this case. I don't know, I don't even know why I watch it. Yeah, you know what I mean. Like I've been riveted by true crime since forensicnsic Files, I mean I watched like America's Most Wanted.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And I enjoyed that show, but it was on and off for me during my childhood. Sometimes we had TV and sometimes we didn't but Forensic Files.
Speaker 1:I was riveted and ever since then I've been devouring true crime and fictional crime as well, and I try to rack my brains and think of the reason why there's a lot of like it's, it's kind of everything and nothing there's like a lot of like crimey shows like law and order, svu and things like that that are kind of targeted towards women, and I wonder if we're kind of women are kind of primed to.
Speaker 2:I don't know why do you like true crime?
Speaker 1:I like the ones that like yeah, like cold cases, like mysteries. I think that the puzzle the puzzle.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's a lot of people who like the puzzle. I like kind of all of it. Like I like the puzzle, I want to know if I can solve it. I like the stories, though I mean a lot of these are very human stories that we can all relate to what else?
Speaker 1:and I like the, the forensic stuff, I think I think it's important to highlight and this is one thing that always aggravates me very much about these true crime shows, where they're always like it was a quiet town where nothing ever went wrong so like olive dateline, yeah, exactly hold on hold your thought okay is that violence is ubiquitous.
Speaker 1:Yeah, murder is ubiquitous and anyone is capable of murder, and that's something to just kind of be aware of, like yeah, you know, don't live your life in like terror or anything, but like there's no such thing as like this quiet town where we've never even heard of murder before okay, so you're going to give us?
Speaker 1:yes, we should probably person get into the case. So we're covering the pretty well-known case of which I had known about. I saw, honestly like a reddit thread and it was like what's like a really mysterious case or whatever, and I was like, ooh, this is probably good fodder for the podcast. This was one of the cases that came up and I picked it because I mean it's very disturbing and it's scary for me as a parent and the kid was the same age as my daughter when he went missing and it's something that, like you know, I mean you've seen my kid and she will just take off and I was like Jesus, jesus, you know, this is something that very well could happen, yeah, um, although we don't have the woods and all that stuff right, it's open desert yeah
Speaker 2:yeah well where you live. It's not even that, yeah yeah, no, it's.
Speaker 1:No, it's not open desert, but like they're still, they're saying there's cars and oh, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah no, I'm not saying it's not dangerous, I'm just saying Devastatingly in the news, like the past few weeks, I've seen two different stories about autistic children that were around that age around 6, 7, that walked out of their homes and both of those kids were later found dead and that's very scary to think about. Kyron we haven't found Okay.
Speaker 2:And Kyron is a child that you're talking about today.
Speaker 1:Kyron Horman is the child that we're talking about today, so we don't actually know what happened to him, but we can probably presume that he's probably deceased. Yeah, um, so he is a boy who went missing on june 4th 2010 from skyline elementary school in portland, oregon, and he was age seven at that time.
Speaker 1:so so this is not a rural place no, well, I mean, they did have some wood areas right, but it's not no, rural, no, it's a big city, yeah yep um, friday, june 4th 2010, the school opened, uh, at 8 am, I don't know like, if that is like not a normal time to open, because it seems like a pretty normal time for a school to open to me yeah, my school opened, yes, open at 8.
Speaker 2:I think it started at 8.
Speaker 1:30 yeah but uh, they were having like a special like science fair thing throughout the school and it was one of those things where the kids had their presentations, like in different classrooms, and then what they were going to do is that they had, like it seemed like the whole school was involved in this presentation so they could, they could view the presentations and then with their classes, all the classes, were going to go through the other classes and like tour all the other kids' presentations and then they were going to go back and like start their own class at like 10 am.
Speaker 1:Okay, going to go back and like start their own class at like 10 am, okay, and so so it opened at 8 am so the students and parents could tour the fair. Okay, so, terry and kyron horman so terry was kyron's stepmother. Okay, arrived shortly after the school opened. Now, now, normally Kyron took the bus to school, but on that day Terry drove Kyron to school.
Speaker 1:Is there a reason? Yes, there are some reasons. She also drove Kyron to school in her husband's like white pickup truck rather than her car, which is like a red Mustang, and uh, she said that the so the reasons were that, uh, she uh wanted to see this presentation. She thought that Kyron was going to present on his uh, science fair topic, which was like dart frogs or tree frogs, and then she thought she may have to bring his big, like three-sided presentation piece back and it was fairly large and probably would have fit inside a Mustang. Okay, but when she got there, there it turned out that, uh, there had been some kind of mix-up and I guess the kids had done their presentations the day before and that this day was just for touring and so she didn't have to do that.
Speaker 1:So she but she drove him to school and they walked around. They looked at his presentation. She took a picture of him in front of his presentation and let's see, I can probably find the picture pretty easily here. It is there he is standing in front of his tree frog presentation he's a cutie, so he's wearing like a csi.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, yeah uh, apparently.
Speaker 1:So this is what year? 2010,. Yeah, yes, 2010. All of his parents. So he has like a mixed family, right. He's got his father, kane, and his stepmother, terry, and then his biological mother, desiree Young, and her husband, whose name I forget I want to say it's Bill or something, but it's like a standard-ish name, right and apparently they're all big true crime fans. Okay, Interesting.
Speaker 1:And also Bill or whatever. I'm so sorry if this dude's name is not Bill. I'm sure it says somewhere in my thing, but I'm not looking at my thing right now. So he is a cop or was an ex-cop. Okay, so that's also an interesting detail.
Speaker 2:Yeah, is there a reason that the other parents didn't go to the science fair?
Speaker 1:So Terry and Cain had primary custody of Kyron and Cain had some work thing that he had to do. And so that's why Terry went, and I think that Desiree and her husband lived a little bit away, so it probably wouldn't have been as easy for them to go.
Speaker 1:But later we'll talk about that. Terry sends a picture to Desiree of her son at the science fair and then they chat a bit about the science fair project and how Kyron worked really hard on it and what their plans for this summer are okay. So at this point, um 8 am, so they go, they take the picture and a billboard outside I guess the school read June 4th, I can't talk. 1b Inquiry Expo 8 to 10. Talent show 1 to 2, 45. So I guess there was a talent show portion, I don't know. Interesting, wait, that would be involved. But Kyron was supposed to take place in the, the the talent show later on. He's gonna be a part of it. Yep, okay, and he was also supposed to tour, like I said, all of the right other presentations with his class at 8 15 skyline pta. Presidentta President Gina Zimmerman arrived at the school and saw Kyron with his stepmother in front of his exhibit. Terry Horman left the school at 8.45 am after watching Kyron walk toward his classroom. So this moment is a bit of a controversial moment right.
Speaker 1:So his classroom, I guess, was classroom 213. So it's on the second level and apparently there is multiple staircases like leading up to it. Some sources said two, a few other sources said there were three staircases like leading up to it. Some sources said two, a few other sources said there were three staircases. But there's more than one staircase Right Leading up to the hall with his class room. Yeah, and apparently Terry and Kyron went up different staircases Right To get to the hall. So they go up different staircases.
Speaker 1:And then Terry says that she saw him at the other end of the hall going into his classroom and then she left. And later on Desiree would say like there's like a thing in the way she can't really see. But then some other sources have said that that was later disproved and that she could have seen there was a line of sight. Other people have said like, well, why the hell would she go up a different staircase, which is a very good question. Why would she go up a different staircase, go up a different staircase, which is a very good question. Why would she go up a different staircase? And some people have said, well, that staircase was closer to her exit. But then like, I mean like why wouldn't she walk up, put him in the classroom and then continue like walking out?
Speaker 2:well, well, personally, I just remembering how I was and some of my friends were. Well, I don't remember if I was, but there are. You know, some kids want to do it on their own, yeah, and but the parents still want to keep an eye on them. So it's entirely possible that he was like let me go by myself. And then she went up the other staircase just to check on him?
Speaker 1:yep, that is a possibility. Another thing that I thought of my seven-year-old is very spontaneous and playful, and I thought it could also be like a game, like a race. Yeah, you go up there, I'll go up there. Yeah, who gets to the top first? Totally like, so, like. So there are definitely reasons, reasons, yeah, why they would have done that Right. And so she sees him go into the classroom. Oh, and one thing that I forgot to mention is that when they got there, they placed his bag and his coat in the classroom.
Speaker 1:Okay, so his bag and his coat were already in the classroom and so she says she sees him going Mm-hmm, and then she leaves Mm-hmm and goes and do do's, does her various things, mm-hmm, which the various things are that she, she has her other child with her as well.
Speaker 1:They're Kyren's younger half sister, kiara, who's just apparently the dad or whatever him his whole family has, and his name is Kane with a K. Their whole family has like, this thing with K is like the Kardashians, gotcha. So she takes her daughter and his name is Kane with a K. Their whole family has this thing with Ks, like the Kardashians Gotcha. So she takes her daughter, kiara, and she goes, she gets in her truck and she drives to the. I called it the grocery store. Right, I'm trying to remember the name of the grocery store. Right, there's, I'm trying to remember the name of the grocery store, someone that starts with an M and uh.
Speaker 2:It doesn't matter, it's the grocery store she drove to the grocery store.
Speaker 1:Yeah, to what she said get her daughter some Tylenol for her earache. Okay, and with the timing of that it does make sense. So she left at 8.45. She got to the grocery store at 9. And it would have been a straight shot. She wouldn't have had time for anything else, right? She did park her truck a bit away from the store, and she parked her truck a bit away from the school as well, and later she would say that this is a thing that she does she parks her I'm raising my hand I do it too.
Speaker 2:I park generally as far away from the.
Speaker 1:Why do you like to do it?
Speaker 2:partly because there are fewer cars out there and so I risk hitting things less when I pull in. Part of it is because, you know, it's just kind of like the only exercise I really get, and part of it is just that like if I'm closer up front, then chances are I have to go out that way and there are people crossing or whatever, and I don't want to deal with that Right.
Speaker 1:Okay. So later Terry would say that she parked away because that's what Kane does, but then Kane would maybe later contradict that claim. But to me okay. So some people said, like she parked away from the grocery store because maybe Kyron was hidden in her truck, uh-huh, but I wouldn't understand why she would also park far away from the school, like in the, the podcast I listened to, crime weekly, the lady presenter, stephanie that said wow, that is, like you know, maybe compelling evidence to prove guilt, but to me how?
Speaker 2:would that prove guilt? I don't know, because you would have to carry them a long way.
Speaker 1:Exactly that's that's my thought. Right is that the farther away you're apart from the school, the farther you're going with kid in tow and the more people who can see you. Yeah, so to me that does that part doesn't make sense? Yeah, but it would make sense to park away from the store if she was trying to hide a kid, but maybe showing that she parked away at the school and at the stores. Maybe that's showing a pattern, but those are the only like instances that we really know of, right?
Speaker 1:So it's hard to say Well, what we do know is, like some camera footage that has caught the car saw Terry, saw the baby, didn't see anybody else in the car. Saw the baby didn't see anybody else in the car, which also contradicts some other different testimony that maybe there was another person with her at the time, so that person couldn't have been with her at the time, or if they were, they would have had to be ducked down and hiding.
Speaker 2:What about the little girl? Wouldn't she know if Kyron was with them?
Speaker 1:She was too little for that.
Speaker 2:How old was she she?
Speaker 1:was not. I don't know exactly, but she was. I think she was less than two. Oh, okay, she was not Gotcha. She was not really able to communicate, gotcha. So, um, yeah, I didn't know.
Speaker 2:But I forgot that's okay I just I didn't know if she was like four or five or no, she was a little little okay, yeah, the, what am I saying?
Speaker 1:so she goes to the, the first store kruger's, that's the name, right? Kruger's, kroger's is the store, and, excuse me, so sorry. Apparently she didn't find what she was looking for there. She said that they didn't have the type of tylenol she wanted to buy the dye-free tylenol, not the kind that I always buy, the red right yeah, sweet kind but yeah, but she wanted like the the clear one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, clear one.
Speaker 1:So then she she went and drove to another store and that also seems to a match up that she did drive there directly and same thing parked far away went into that store and some video evidence on up in that store has shown that she'd talked to an employee and then showed her buying a few things. Whether those things were exactly Tylenol, I guess, is unverified, but the point is she still, yeah, she went there, she bought a thing, yeah, or a couple of things, yeah, and then she left, and after that then that's where I think it gets a little dicey. Right, she said that she drove around to relieve her daughter's earache, as one does if you've got a fussy baby. Yeah, you might drive.
Speaker 2:And yeah, you do what you can to yeah, sue them yeah.
Speaker 1:And she said that she stopped and did a dry cleaner. That was some bit away, but the dry cleaner was. She said it was busy and so she just left without dropping anything off. Yeah, on that Crime Weekly they said that that was unverified. Yeah, the police have withheld a lot of the whatever evidence in this case. It kind of comes down to this article says this this article says that.
Speaker 1:And there is a book and like, the book says this, this and that, but like what are the books sources as well? That's also a potentially dubious nature, yeah, so that's. Another thing is that, yeah, there's some differing accounts of things, um, and so she may or may not have stopped at the strike cleaner. And then she says she stopped at michael's, but there's no proof of that.
Speaker 1:She wasn't captured on camera and she didn't buy anything so and then she said that she went to the gym, which was pretty common for her. She was kind of a gym rat we'll see and earlier in her life she had been a bodybuilder and yeah. So she was real big on the gym and so she stopped at the gym. She put her kid into daycare, which was pretty common for her, apparently, but normally she would stay for quite a bit. This time she only stayed for like 22 minutes and she didn't really work out. She chatted with some people, and it was common for her to chat with people at the gym. That was pretty common for her, but what wasn't common is that she didn't stay for that long.
Speaker 1:Yeah, now I thought there could be right. We could see two paths to this. One path is that she's trying to build an alibi, right. Another path is maybe her baby was still fussy from the earache and so she thought maybe she was soothed and she wanted to go work out, but when her baby started freaking out, then, she had to leave and curtail her gym visit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm sorry. Is the daycare in the gym? Yes, there's a daycare in the gym. Okay, gotcha, yeah.
Speaker 1:It wasn't.
Speaker 2:So it's not like they would call. She might hear or whatever, or somebody might come and tap her shoulder and tell her.
Speaker 1:Yeah, somebody might be like she's not settling or she might even yeah, hear it.
Speaker 2:Like I don't know how big this gym was.
Speaker 1:Yeah, gotcha, but yeah. But her going to the gym and putting her daughter into daycare, that was really common behavior.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I just when you said daycare I thought like a separate place. I didn't realize the gym. But it's the gym, daycare Gotcha.
Speaker 1:Also, there is a bit of a discrepancy when she reported that she arrived at the gym and when, I guess, her phone tracker reported that she arrived at the gym, which she said that she arrived around 11 40 and according to the phone tracker, she arrived around 12 20. Oh, and it's not a huge time difference as someone who has time issues. Time to me that's nothing, but it can be a lot when you're looking at crime.
Speaker 2:She may not have looked at the clock and was just guessing.
Speaker 1:But depending on how we look at it, right, like she had somewhere between like about 45 minutes and like maybe up to two hours, between like about 45 minutes and like maybe up to two hours. If, if we are discounting the dry cleaner and michael's, story unaccounted for yeah, right, and then later we're gonna find wait the time tracker.
Speaker 2:So how come they couldn't track her at, like other places?
Speaker 1:they did and I'll get to that okay. Um so she, she had a few pings, one particularly.
Speaker 2:That is quite suspicious so are we talking about cell towers? Yes, I have shit to say about that cell towers.
Speaker 1:so, but, so, but yeah, there is again. There is a possibly legit explanation, although it's a no, and there's again, you can look at it as this is real suspicious. So now, meanwhile over, let's go back to the school.
Speaker 1:So meanwhile, at the school, chiron is allegedly marked absent and there's quite a bit of a clusterfuck in my opinion about the school and how they dealt with the whole issue and how it's also reported, like I think there's some big discrepancies, okay, so so the teacher said that she reported chiron as absent and that she also reported that she thought that Kyron was at like a doctor's appointment the day before. Terry had brought her like a behavioral thing to fill out for Kyron because she was taking him to a doctor's appointment and there are some emails that she has sent to like her friend that were talking about how she was worried about like some of his behavior lately and she wanted to take him to the doctor. Yeah, and again, you could think of that possibly as building up an alibi and premeditation as well, or it could be a legitimate concern.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the teacher said that she thought that the appointment was on that day, june 4th the day of the science fair.
Speaker 1:Terry said that she told him the appointment was for June 10th or June 11th, which on the Crime Weekly podcast they were talking about. Well, well, why would she report an appointment that that school would have been out by then? They're saying well, why would she report an appointment that school would be out by then? And I actually have an answer for that and a reason why she would do that, and it has to do with the behavioral thing that she wants the teacher to fill out, because I've had to have teachers fill out similar things for my children.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's because she wants the teacher to spend time observing the child and reporting on their behavior so that she can bring that report to her doctor as, basically, like a secondary piece of evidence that supports her claim that the kid is acting in this specific way. Yeah, and I'm concerned about this. Yeah, and so it doesn't matter, right, if the appointment is after the end of school. She still wants the teachers To know so that they get it to her in time yeah exactly, and she wants them to provide that backup evidence.
Speaker 1:Basically, yeah, so that would be a reason why she would be talking to the teacher about an appointment that happens after the end of school. Yeah, I mean, I'm talking to my daughter's teacher about an appointment that's going to happen in the middle of summer. Yeah, so these things do happen. However, the one thing that I could not find is whether anybody checked with the doctor to see if there was an appointment, right, which seems like an important thing to do.
Speaker 2:Yeah and and so, again, it's basically just the teacher's word versus terry's word yeah, and maybe the police did, and it's just one piece of evidence they didn't release again.
Speaker 1:That could be the case, because they may be sitting on whatever amount of evidence?
Speaker 1:yeah, but yeah, so that could be the case, um, but it wasn't information that I could find available, whether or not they had checked. So, yeah, so we don't know. Is this information that that they neglected to check? Is this information that that, um, they they have and they're not releasing, or what is the case about it? Some some people have suggested that they wouldn't reveal that because of patient confidentiality, but that's not the case. When there's a criminal investigation involved, they are not only allowed but obliged to, to offer up that information. So that would not be a violation of, like, hipaa law.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, so so the teacher reported that she thought that Kyron was at an appointment. However, there's a few things that maybe contradict that. The teacher thought that, uh, one of the things is that Kyron's bag and code were in the classroom all day. Yeah, like, why would you think that a kid was absent? If his book, the book, if his bag and his coat were there? Careful, wouldn't you at least like, check and be like is he at an appointment? Why is his bag here? Yeah, you know. And another thing is that one of his classmates reported that he asked the teacher, like where's kyron? And that the teacher said oh, I think he went to the bathroom.
Speaker 1:So either she's overworked or yeah, she's not a very good and uh the gentleman's name that I just forgot already, dylan Derek Derek In the Crime Weekly podcast had suggested or asked like isn't there like a sign-in sheet? But seven-year-old kids don't do a sign-in sheet.
Speaker 1:It would be the teacher who would do like an attendance roll. It would be the teacher who would do like an attendance role. Yeah, interestingly, terry was a teacher or she was. She had her, her, her teaching degree and, uh, license and like she, yeah, she had like a bachelor's and a master's in education and like she was licensed to teach but she only ever did like substitute teaching and like educational assistant stuff and at the time that Kyron was missing she was like a stay-at-home mom but she volunteered at the school.
Speaker 1:But she was pretty known at the school and she was kind of maybe a slightly ostentatious person and she was known to have like bright, flaming red hair and like, yeah, she drove this kind of flashy car and so this is somebody who is very recognizable, right, like, and would be known in the school. The teacher marked him absent but there was no call to to Chiron's parents, none of the parents to report that he was not in class, which to me, like I guess they didn't at that time have an automated call system, which I thought was kind of madness because, like I said to you, like back in like 2001, 2002, when I was in high school, we had an automated call system, and if I skipped school then I would try and rush home and answer the phone for the automated call system before my parents got it. Yeah, and so.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's weird that New Mexico would be ahead of Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's kind of mind boggling, right yeah, that we would be ahead in that department.
Speaker 2:Do you think maybe there was an automated system, but he wasn't.
Speaker 1:Was he marked absent? No, they didn't have an automated system. Because later they they say but he wasn't. Was he marked absent? No, they didn't have an automated system. Because later they they say they do a big thing about how they're going to implement it. Okay, gotcha, gotcha, and they didn't have sign-in sheets for who was coming and going in the school, or anything, in 2010. They didn't have that. No, that's none of that. So there, no, anybody could have walked in to that science fair and done anything.
Speaker 2:That was my thought.
Speaker 1:Madness.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Now people did say many people reported Kyron was a real shy kid. He was very reserved. They don't think that he would have walked off with a stranger. Most people think now yeah, I see you rolling your eyes and like we don't know for sure, right, but most people believe that if he was kidnapped, that it was by somebody he knew. But there's also tons of other people that he could have come in contact with at the school Teachers, former teachers, etc. Etc. Etc that he could have possibly known and trusted enough to walk off with.
Speaker 1:How well behaved was he? Well behaved, from what I understand, because you think it could have been. Somebody dresses like a, a cop or somebody like no because I'm thinking of myself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was a very well-behaved child. I think probably the worst thing I did was talk back.
Speaker 1:Maybe you know, but any adult, any adult, whether I knew them or not, if they had said come with me yeah I would have gone with them as a shy reserved child well, and it just occurred to me, like, like I said just now, like if somebody was dressed especially like as a cop or like a nurse or somebody like that, then that would lend credence to you know. Give them the authority to tell him come with me and do this or do that.
Speaker 2:There were probably parents there that day right Because it's a science fair. So they could have even said I'm so-and-so's parent or whatever. Very true, and if they'd never met him before, it could have even been so-and-so's parent or whatever, very true, and if they'd never met him before, it could have even been so-and-so's parent.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I'm not saying it wasn't Terry and it probably was Terry, but just to I, just from everything I've seen, a lot of people are like it's definitely Terry, but it seems like it's not perfect. Yeah, it's not perfect.
Speaker 2:And so that's what I just want to like. There are, yeah, there are possibilities absolutely that there are alternative possibilities.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I agree that terry does seem pretty shady, yeah, but there's always other possibilities and there's other explanations, like for stuff like oh, like she wasn't really crying or she wasn't really doing this or that, like there's like people react different ways, so there's explanations for that that may not.
Speaker 2:I don't usually cry in public, it doesn't matter. I mean I did when my grandpa died, but that was mainly because I was exhausted. If I had been in full control of myself, I probably wouldn't have until later If I had been in full control of myself, I probably wouldn't have until later.
Speaker 1:So again, I'm not saying because of the that ping that we're going to talk about, I think that that's like the most damning thing, yeah, but but yeah, there's other possibilities, especially when we break down some like different things, right, Like there are some witnesses that said that they saw Kyron leave with Terry, but there's also other witnesses that said that they saw Kyron in the school after Terry had left.
Speaker 2:So it's like people are seeing Kyron everywhere.
Speaker 1:Yeah, witnesses are notoriously terrible, notoriously unreliable. Yes, exactly, exactly, and there's some more. We'll get into that. But uh, so nobody called okay, and at the okay, so this even says right here at 9 am another student reported seeing kyron near the south entrance, at sky of skyline. So that's a report of him being seen without terry after she left.
Speaker 1:yeah, uh, according to sheriff dan staten, that was the last time kairona was seen, although I don't know if I'm seeing this right. Multnomah county authorities later backtracked on that statement class. Yeah, it seemed like like once they kind of honed in that Terry was going to be their suspect, kind of those other testimonies, the testimonies of witnesses who saw Kyron in the school. Okay, gotcha Class began at 10 am and sometime after this his homeroom teacher, christina Porter, reported Kyron absent at 1.21 p 21 PM. After Terry left the gym and she went back home she posted the picture of Kyron and his project to her Facebook page. Then she like texted Desiree, kyron's bio mom, uh, to let him know that she had posted it and, uh, and I guess they talked about like his project he had worked really, really hard on it and they talked about what the summer plans were. So they got along, no they didn't get along.
Speaker 1:No, they didn't get along, Okay. And later Desiree would say that that was pretty unusual behavior for Terry to text her and be like. However, she would also later say that Terry used to frequently send her emails about Kyron, but she would say that they were usually of a complainatory nature.
Speaker 2:Gotcha, Okay so Do we know why they didn't get along with terry jealous? Yes, I do know tell me, the cheese me.
Speaker 1:I do know why they didn't get along because uh kane left desiree for terry. He had been having an affair with terry while uh kyron was a baby and he left her for him. He left uh desiree for terry, okay, and also like he had been like lying to desiree and like going to meet with terry when he had kyron, like baby kyron, like in his custody douchebag, like, yeah, taking, taking baby kyron to like see terry, and like she was like holding him and like taking care of him and stuff like that. And desiree didn't even know that she existed.
Speaker 2:Um well, I can see why desiree would dislike terry, but it sounds like terry disliked her.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it seemed like overall, like I, overall, they didn't really get along particularly. Yeah, terry, they talked about in that crime weekly some advice or whatever, that that uh desiree had given uh kane to like get rid of uh desiree. Basically it didn't sound very friendly.
Speaker 1:So so, like yeah, I don't think that either of them harbored any. No love lost between them, but Desiree reported that they try to keep it civil for the sake of co-parenting, right, gotcha, and both of them, terry and Desiree both have an older son from previous relationships. Okay, so that's not super relevant, but it's just something to consider. So she posted, she talked to Desiree, and then at 3.30 pm Terry and Kyron's father, kane Horman, went out to meet the school bus at 3.30, and they discovered that he wasn't on the school bus and when they called the school and they were like where the hell is my kid? Then they discovered that Kyron had been absent from school all day. Huh, um.
Speaker 1:So at 3.46, the school secretary, susan Hall I'm not sure if we need to know her name, but her name was Susan Hall called 911 to report that Kyron was missing. About 45 minutes later, officers from the Portland Police Bureau and Multnomah County Sheriff's Office arrived simultaneously at the school and at Kyron's home. So at 5.30, they sent out a broadcast to the phones of parents from the public schools that read Kyron Horman did not arrive at home today. That's very cryptic Mm-hmm. At home today. That's very cryptic Mm-hmm. At 7 pm, multnomah County Sheriff's Office Detective Sergeant Lee Gossin alerted Sergeant Travis Goldberg, the county's on-call coordinator for search and rescue efforts, of the need to begin a formal missing person search for Kyron, and between 7 and 7.15, the Multnomah County Public Information Officer began to return pages from members of the media and arranged to meet from them.
Speaker 2:There wasn't an.
Speaker 1:Amber Alert Did they have Amber Alerts in 2010?
Speaker 2:I thought they did. I thought that was put in place in the 90s. Oh, was it in the 90s. I think it came from a case in the 90s. Oh, was it in the 90s. I think it came from a case.
Speaker 1:Let me look, it was from like the early 2000s at least, though yeah, there was a specific case that triggered it.
Speaker 2:The Amber Alert system was created in 1996. Oh dang After the abduction and murder of nine-year-old Amber Hagerman in Arlington, texas.
Speaker 1:Well, you would think that if they begin a formal missing person search, that they would have put out an Amber Alert for him. You would think.
Speaker 2:I mean, that's kind of usually the first step, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, sometime between 7 and 7.45, sheriff Dan Stanton called the FBI to alert them of Kyron's disappearance, and the first search teams arrived at the school at 8 pm and shortly after 815.
Speaker 2:Wait, I'm sorry. Who called the FBI?
Speaker 1:The sheriff of Multnomah County, gotcha. So around 8.15, another cop, lieutenant Mary Lindstrom, arrived at the school. She met with everybody and she emailed a local media photo of Kyron and I don't know why it's so tedious, but they're like this person arrived at this time. Mm-hmm, and I don't know why it's so tedious, but they're like this person arrived at this time. So, basically, they organized a search party, okay, and they completed a search. They completed their search by 1040, just a search of, like the school and the grounds, okay, including all the crawl spaces, the storage areas, the classrooms and outbuildings, mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:And they also searched the Horman's home, okay.
Speaker 2:They hadn't gone into the woods yet. No, not yet.
Speaker 1:Okay, but that will come Okay. At 1044, a tipster called 911 to make sure officers checked the train tunnel in the area near the school. The caller said sometimes kids play there and they wanted to make sure that someone has checked. Okay, so presumably they checked that too. So the next day another search group, pacific Northwest Search and Rescue, was called and shortly after 5 am they arrived on site and it was like 60 to 70 people involved in that search and they put out a press release, an email notification, stating the sheriff's office continues the search for 7-year-old Kyron Horman. A UK-based missing child site created a page for Kyron. A tip line was created for him. Based missing child site created a page for Chiron. A tip line was created for him.
Speaker 1:At noon. They said that the search was a missing person case at that point and not a criminal investigation. Alright, the Portland Public School District used their rapid broadcast system to alert the staff and the parents of the students who were at the school Friday to come on Sunday for a debriefing by police and federal agents. The oldest students were advised to arrive at 10 am and the younger students who had were to arrive later in the day. Two news conferences were held in a day, one at 4, one at 8. Authorities announced the FBI and the National Guard had joined the effort. Okay, so right away, this is like a massive response, yeah, and overall the effort was incredible and I mean I guess we'll get to that. But like they kept asking for more funding, kept asking for more funding, kept searching, kept, searching, kept and we'll talk about this soon that they do like a sweep of like a two-mile radius all around, that's when they searched the schools. They brought in the search and rescue dogs and like sniffing dogs and all that stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah dogs, um, and like sniffing dogs and all that stuff, yeah and um, overall, like the organ spent like a million dollars, wow, uh, on this case looking for kyron, wow, which is great, and but, like I had, I had to have a little moment to pause because I was like if this wasn't a little white boy, like this would not have happened. So it's great to see that, but we need that energy for every missing child.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure, so, okay. So at this point, this is when they do the grid search. Okay, that's the two mile radius search. Okay, Around the school, and that includes the grid search. That's the two-mile radius search around the school and that includes the surrounding woods. Right, and they created a Facebook page, all the things, all the bells and whistles. Yeah, on Sunday, june 6th, terry posted on Facebook at 8.59 saying she had ordered a bunch of missing person flyers. Quote I ordered a thousand flyers. They will be coming to our house. I will let people know when they are here and you can go from there. Thank you everyone. Desiree reported, had reported that when she had got to the house or whatever, when they arrived to like the house. Well, first of all, they said that, like Kane and Terry did not contact them.
Speaker 1:Desiree, and I'm still going to say Bill, I'm so sorry, that's okay, desiree and her husband, desiree and her husband, until they had it had been had been like an hour had passed, that they had known that Chiron was missing and she definitely felt slighted by that. I mean they should have called right away, but I can see in the panic.
Speaker 2:Yeah of not doing it, or thinking he'll be found right away, so not to worry.
Speaker 1:Or just thinking like, yeah, let's find my kid, where's my kid, where's my kid, yeah, away. So not to worry. Or just thinking like, yeah, let's find my kid, where's my kid, where's my kid, yeah. And then you have to realize, holy shit, my kid is really fucking missing. Yeah, I have to contact his mom. Yeah, yeah, so I can see why that would happen. Yeah, um, but yeah, I can also see why desiree is upset by that, totally, um. But she also said that when they arrived at the home, that that she felt that like terry was like in kind of a cheery mood, that she didn't seem like her mood didn't seem to match the situation and, uh, the all four of them had to, like, hand over their phones to the cops.
Speaker 1:And Terry handed over her phone too, but she was the only one who kind of expressed a reluctance to do so, and it was kind of like my privacy, but she did hand over her phone yeah.
Speaker 2:I don't know. I think a lot of people would hesitate.
Speaker 1:Yeah, a lot of people would.
Speaker 2:I mean it's a kid, so probably so yeah, but this is again yeah.
Speaker 1:So many of these scenarios are like I can see how this is not suspicious and I can see how it's it's suspicious yeah, yep, so that morning. This is june 6. He's been missing for a couple days now. The fbi announced they had brought in a Quantico-based profile to create a profile of the boy. Oh, and this is another thing, their profile. They determined they thought that he wouldn't go off with a stranger. That was one of the things of their profile. Oh, fbi.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Sometimes, they're silly gooses.
Speaker 1:I think that the profiles can be handy, but I also think that they should be taken with a grain of salt because I also think I think that sometimes it can limit what's being looked at, right, yeah, and like it's yeah, I get it it's based on like psychology. And like it's yeah, I get it, it's based on like psychology and it's based on all of this. But this same time, if you're like this is it's, it's not hard evidence, yeah, and so I feel like you have to take it as like this is maybe a probability, but it's not a certainty and you can't close off those other avenues. Yeah, and and so that's my issue yeah, with fbi profiles, as cool as they are right, as much as we like to think about like serial killer profiles and how cool that is and like the whole thing, like that they can like, not that, you know, I'm not saying serial killers are cool, what?
Speaker 2:I'm saying is cool is that they can.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the psychology that they can, that they can discover the psyche of what that person's character is like, yeah, um, but we also have to understand that in some case, in some cases, there's always the outlier exactly, there are outliers and so, uh, if you just narrow it down too much, then you might completely miss other possibilities. I don't think I'm expressing myself very well, but you know what I'm talking about yeah, well, I was just thinking.
Speaker 2:Maybe they say in the reporting that it's because he was what, what? How was he described?
Speaker 1:of strangers because of his like, because his parents watch all those true crime shows and like and he had watched them too, so they thought that he was pretty savvy about well, see, I didn't know that part.
Speaker 2:So if there had been that part, then I can see how they would say that he wouldn't go with a stranger. But if, like I, didn't have true crime at that point in time, so I would have probably but I think that again, if he thought that it was someone legit, like a cop or like a doctor or somebody like that.
Speaker 1:That that would still override it. Yes, yeah, Because he's still only a seven-year-old guys. Yeah, and they said that like he, you know, could get kind of spacey Mm-hmm and he would also like he was an eager learner, Like Desiree said that he would come and he would like have learned all these new things, mm-hmm. And some people believe that he could have been neurodivergent, although that's not really confirmed Right. So shy doesn't necessarily mean neurodivergent, no, it doesn't.
Speaker 2:But Desiree, I think, did say that she thought that if a friend had been like come on, let's go, that he would have gone with a friend or the, yeah, trusted yeah, I actually did that as a kid, like I had a new friend and she was like come home with me. I was like I gotta ask my mom. She's like don't worry about it, just come home.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, I went to her house so then all these students and their parents came back and they were all interviewed by detectives probably like 50 different detectives, 300 different students and their parents. That's a lot of people. That is a lot of people. That afternoon, around 12, 10 pm, Kyron's relatives started distributing missing person photos with his picture and a description that read three feet eight inches tall, 50 pounds, blue eyes, brown hair. Lastly, wearing black cargo pants, white socks and a worn black Skechers, tennis shoes with orange trim. At 3.30, the Portland Public Schools Superintendent, Carol Smith, appeared at a news conference and outlined a series of immediate steps the district was taking. The Portland Public School Superintendent, Carol Smith, appeared at a news conference and outlined a series of immediate steps the district was taking to address security concerns in the wake of Kyrie's disappearance. This is when we're like whoops.
Speaker 1:We should probably have a sign in sheet for parents and we should probably do an automated call system, and we should probably make sure to buzz parents into the building and make sure they have a badge or something identifying who they are. It's like why the fuck weren't you doing that shit before?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, but yeah, given the year, that seems really backward right it does it? Does they're either really backward or really naive? Yep so.
Speaker 1:So it's like, wow, like we have to wait till something really horrible happens before we implement these policies. Yeah, very sad to see that. Yeah, the multanomi county sheriff escalated carmen's disappearance to a missing, endangered case, but didn't call it a kidnapping. By the end of that day, on Monday, june 7th, a bunch more search and rescue volunteers sweep the area again handing out flyers. They wrote down license plate numbers of a bunch of cars. The school district made a counseling hotline and classes resumed, but they had, like counselors on hand. That evening, desiree's sister issued a statement thanking the community on behalf of their family for their continued support. Blah, blah.
Speaker 1:On Tuesday, united Search and Rescue crews resumed their search and a reward fund was created and announced on Facebook. And this was the day that, I think that Terry posted a post on Facebook saying I'm going to the gym. And this was a lot of people were like this is very odd behavior for somebody who just lost their stepson. Yeah, and her rationale that she gave was that the police told her to like, told them all to resume their normal activity. Like I said, she was quite a gym rat. She was real addicted to working out and going to the gym. However, it's the facebook post and, yeah, you know the tone that now some people are chronic facebook posters I don't know.
Speaker 1:If she was that was normal for her, then that's what she was doing but it it does read as, at best, quite tone deaf, yes, and at worst, possibly callous, sinister, yeah. So, uh, the next day, uh, because of backlash from that, she made her facebook private and more searching for kyron. At 11 am, fbi spokeswoman beth and steel said the horman family is not speaking to the media because they do not believe it's in the best interest of finding kyron, which, yeah, that's often true. Yeah, they will take things and spend them and, yeah, yeah, I always feel some type of way, yeah, about the media when there's some kind of tragedy and they're like you just lost your loved one. How are you feeling, yeah, or like, have you seen? Like in the wake of, like school shootings, and they're like interviewing, like interviewing these like traumatized parents, yeah, and they're like what are you feeling in this moment? And it's like go away, yeah, like this person is shell-shocked, um, like I know that they're doing their job and stuff, but in that moment, like it makes me want to just slap that reporter. Yeah, at noon during a news briefing, multnomah County Sheriff's Captain Mike Schultz read a statement from Kyron's immediate family that read Kyron's family would like to thank people for supporting interest in finding their son.
Speaker 1:The outpouring of support and continued effort strengthens their hope. We need for folks to continue to assist us in our goal. Please search your properties, cars, outbuilding, sheds, etc. Also check in with neighbors and friends who may be on vacation or may need assistance. There are a lot of resources here to help you search, so please don't stop. It is obviously a difficult time. They want to speak to the public so you can hear from Kyron's family as they come together to share their message. Their objective is to keep the focus on Kyron and not about anything else.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so they just continued searching. So they just continued searching. But on Friday, june 11th, they started searching on Suave Island. Okay, now, this is where the cell phone ping thing comes in, because her phone pinged at a tower that was near Highway 30 and is also the tower for a nearby, suave island, which is like in an island that is off of the columbia river and it is 24 000 acres. It's one of the largest river islands in the united states and like it's mostly like wildernessy area. People go camp and fish and stuff like that there and the columbia river lets into the ocean there and uh, so obviously they hadn't checked out the, the island, the island. Well, yes, but I was going to say, obviously they checked out terry's. Well, yes, but I was going to say, obviously they checked out Terry's phone and seen that ping Can.
Speaker 1:I ask how far away that thing is from Portland Great question I have seen some maps and maybe I'd save some maps.
Speaker 2:And I ask that for two reasons. Number one I used to work very, very briefly for a customer service that did cell phones, and one of the first things we learned in training is that if the nearest cell phone tower is clogged up, it will send you to the nearest one that is free and has space, so it may put you in an area that is not where you are. Second, I have experienced that myself because on occasion, if I drive a certain way in El Paso and I make a call or something, or somebody calls me, and I make a call or something, or somebody calls me it puts me in Mexico, even though I'm in El Paso.
Speaker 1:Okay, here's the map of her. I didn't save that to talk about because I'm terrible with maps, and so I was like I'll just gloss over that part. Yeah, so Terry's story is that she was driving on the highway trying to soothe her daughter, right, but obviously many people believe that she went to Suave Island to dump the body of Kyron and that she dumped it in. I shouldn't say say it, but she dumped his body in the river and that he was swept out to the ocean. And a friend of hers, or a former friend of hers, had reported to the police that some previous time because, remember, I told you they were big fans of true crime and they were also big fans of dexter. Have you seen dexter and like something like season two I want to see, or maybe it's. In season one dexter talks about how he likes to dump bodies where they can get swept out to the ocean, and terry had talked to her friend about that episode or whatever, and how.
Speaker 1:she learned from Dexter that that was the perfect place to dump a body, and so obviously the suspicion is on her that she would dump the body there, because it has all of those features where a body could get swept out to the ocean, although I would say I've heard multiple true crime people talk about similar things who probably would never commit murder.
Speaker 1:That is absolutely the flip side, right? If you are right, because some people have said well, yeah, she's a true crime and that's how she learned how to do crime, but also the rest of them were also true crime and that's how she learned how to do crime, but also the rest of them were also true crime enthusiasts as well yeah, and so absolutely that could be a thing and, like you know, if you're just an interesting fact, you learn like I'm constantly giving interesting facts to people that are just random and about stupid things or you know like
Speaker 1:including that in uh, what is it? The lovely bones or or some something where they talk about how like the perfect murder is if you stab somebody with an icicle. So then the icicle just melts and like there's no evidence. I mean like there's so many things out there that you could be like I, I saw this and it's the perfect murder, right, and it doesn't necessarily mean that, no, but on the flip side you could see like, oh, she has maybe the opportunity, yeah, it's definitely suspicious, but at the same time I mean yeah, yeah, I don't know that I would, but at this point, because of those pings right?
Speaker 2:Well, see, that's what I was talking about. I always I don't like the ping shit.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because I don't know if you were listening to me when I was talking about it.
Speaker 1:You were busy looking at the map. I was looking at the map. Okay, say the thing about the pings again. There are two reasons.
Speaker 2:Our audience heard you. There are two reasons Our audience heard you. There are two reasons. So first, I worked, very briefly, for customer service that did cell phones, and one of the things that we learned in training is that if a cell phone tower is clogged up, it will send you to the next one that is not clogged up and that can be miles and miles and miles away. Right, and you're in one place, but your phone is pinging off way way far away from you.
Speaker 2:Second, if I drive a certain way to work in el paso and somebody calls me or I call somebody, I get charged internationally because my phone often will ping off mexico's cell tower right. I'm not in mexico, I'm in el paso. Is that why my phone is always ping off Mexico's cell tower Right.
Speaker 1:I'm not in Mexico, I'm in El Paso. Is that why my phone is always saying that I'm in Phoenix?
Speaker 2:It could be yeah, Unless you have a 575 number. Yeah, yeah, I do have a 575. I'm telling everybody where we are.
Speaker 1:Sometimes it says I'm in El Paso. Sometimes it says I'm in.
Speaker 2:Arizona. I don't know if it can go all the way to phoenix but yeah it will.
Speaker 2:If, if the cell tower is clogged up, it will put you somewhere else, yeah, that's why I don't trust those. Yeah, at all. I mean, if if they got it a different way, like the like you know how the apps track you, whatever, and you're like driving along that way, then that would be different. But if you're doing the ping shit, I never trust those, ever. I would be if, if I were a jurist on a murder trial and it had to do with ping, I wouldn't even consider that evidence at all.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, that, that, that that is definitely a thing. And later, many years later, right, she went on Dr Phil, and I mean so did Desiree and Kane, but like at a different time, right, they all went on Dr Phil. Yeah, and Dr Phil asked her, like why did your phone ping on Suave Island? And she said, well, that tower isn't on Suave Island.
Speaker 1:And I was on Suave Island, and I mean that doesn't mean that people who are on Suave Island aren't pinging. So if she was on Suave Island she would probably ping that tower, right. But yeah, like you said, it doesn't necessarily prove that she knows it doesn't on that island.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it really doesn't um, I mean, I don't know, I mean in 20, now a days that might be a little bit different, because we're now, we're in 2024, but I know back then, yeah, but like you said you, you sometimes, even though you have a new Mexico number, you sometimes it says you're in Phoenix or whatever. Yeah, yeah, sometimes I'm in Mexico, but I'm right here in Las Cruces or El Paso.
Speaker 1:Anyway, this is the. So prosecutorspodcastcom is where I got this, found this map. So if anybody's interested in taking a look at what Terry Horman's route was 28 minutes, 11.4 miles. Oh, that's just part of it 20 minutes for that part, 42 minutes for the other part, three minutes for another part. Okay, so that's her route. If you want to take a look at it, we'll post that in the show notes. Um, so, according to the cell phone pings, and then whatever not GPS, cause they didn't really have GPS, but yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Cause it would be interesting if it, if it was done through app tracking, because that's different yeah so, but at this point it seems that at least the police right are narrowing in on terry as a person of interest.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I admit it's very circumstantial, yes, but but it is very circumstantial most murder cases are actually circumstantial. But yeah, I can see how it's pointing to her, but there's what's the motive well, that's.
Speaker 1:That's one of the things that's a little bit up in the air some people think that, uh, it was a divorce based motive, because I guess, like in oregon or whatever, they have like a kind of preference for if a kid gets or they did, I don't know if they still do like a kind of preference for if you get like a divorce from your spouse, that there's a preference to keep siblings together like in a custody arrangement and obviously if she divorced Cain then Cain wouldn't have custody of Kyron because she has no claim to Kyron.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and she also isn't working and yeah, and so, um, she might be at a disadvantage for a custody battle for her daughter Kiara.
Speaker 2:So were they in divorce talks, were they?
Speaker 1:planning on it. They hadn't been in divorce talks, but some friends had reported that she had talked about divorcing him. Okay, what would the other motive be? Okay, what would the other motive be? Who knows if you're an unhinged person?
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Is that Cain's family was real big on whatever legacy. They had this name thing going, they had this whole whatever thing about their legacy and that she would have tried to destroy him by destroying his legacy, his son. But I was like he could just make another son. Yeah, but I mean, if you're not a rational, let's assume you're not a rational actor and like maybe that could be a motivation.
Speaker 1:yeah, so but nothing you've told me tells me that she's irrational yeah, yeah, I mean there is, there's some stuff, but it's all again, yeah, not that it's not that solid and I mean there's definitely a reason why, even though it seems like she's been the person of interest the main person of interest for the from the police.
Speaker 1:For all these years Like she has not been charged and we'll get into that. There was a grand jury convened and I guess we're getting into it now, like a couple months later. Basically there was a grand jury convene and it was basically dismissed because there wasn't enough evidence right, and in this kind of case it's not like she could never be like retried because she wasn't like acquitted. So it's not like a double jeopardy situation right because it's a grand jury.
Speaker 1:It's not really a trial well, yeah, it's not really trial and and she wasn't actually acquitted, they just dismissed the case for lack of evidence. Yeah, and so there could be a new trial, but they would just have to admit new evidence.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's not really a trial at all. It's the grand jury decides whether or not they think there's enough evidence to have a trial.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And just because they say no doesn't mean that the person's innocent. It just means that there's not enough evidence or whatever, and it can go back to the grand jury at any point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it hasn't, yeah. And so you would think that they don't. I mean they might be sitting on whatever, but whatever, it is right they haven't charged her.
Speaker 2:They would give that to the grand jury if they would give all the evidence. Yeah, and the other thing about the grand jury which I mean it has nothing to do at this point, but I just found it interesting is that the defense doesn't get to present anything, yeah, so the person just sits there and gets questioned by the prosecutor, yeah, that sucks.
Speaker 1:It does suck, but yeah, they didn't find enough evidence at that point and it seems like they haven't found more evidence at this point, or at least not enough to charge her, because she hasn't been charged and she's walking free right now. So they have, I guess, interviewed and looked at other people as well, but it seems like she's been their main person. Yeah, um, so I'm not sure like how intensely they've looked at other people, because it seems like pretty quickly yeah, it feels.
Speaker 2:it feels kind of like they they zeroed in on her and yeah, and there doesn't seem to be much movement, otherwise no.
Speaker 1:There is one other person, okay, who is an interesting person, hold on, and this is Terry's friend. Her name is Dee Dee Spicer, uh-huh, and she's like a gardener, uh-huh, and her and Terry, I guess, met through like the gym. She was also like like a big workout person, whatever, and interestingly, she also is a redhead Interesting. Yeah, it's very interesting because some witnesses said they saw Kyron leaving with a red haired woman. Right, terry is a red haired woman, woman, but so is dd, and dd was also unaccounted for for some hours around the same time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and what it? What it is is that she has this gardening job, or had this gardening job on this like big, whatever farm or big area of land, and like all the gardeners would like whatever, check in, get their assignment for like the area that they're supposed to do, and then they go do it, and then they like come in for lunch and all that stuff, come in for lunch and all that stuff, and but like, when they're doing their little gardening stuff off in this big ass property, then they're pretty much alone, right, and she uh had arrived, excuse me, checked her, like putting her lunch and stuff in the locker, and then she allegedly left her phone in her car and went off and did her gardening or whatever missed lunch.
Speaker 1:They tried to call her and like she didn't respond, and she said that was because because she left her phone in her car and she lost track of time. And then she realized and came in later and they were like where were you? We tried to call you and she was like I was just there gardening and I lost track of time. However, there is this space of time where nobody can really verify and so some people believe she could have left, she could have been picked up by Terry and been an accomplice of Terry. Now one of the reports has said that somebody had thought that they had seen somebody else sitting in Terry's car when it was like sitting across the street from the school and they thought that that was dd. But that would have been too early for dd to have been missing and so that doesn't make sense to me for that to have been dd. And then also, again, she wasn't picked up.
Speaker 1:Later, when the cameras picked, pick, picked them up driving, they only picked up Terry and the baby, unless she's like down on the ground or down in the bed of the truck, like holding Chiron or something Like down or something, and so I would think that if she picked her up, it would be like on her way to like suave island, in that whatever possible up to two-ish hours of missing time she could have maybe picked her up and she could have helped her, whatever and then return her, and no one would have been the wiser for that. Now, even less so. What would Terry's motivation be?
Speaker 2:What would Dee Dee's motivation be to assist her.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's what I was just thinking of that would really motivate her to assist terry to murder an innocent child. Is that they had a relationship, and a romantic one, yeah yeah, and that maybe she posed chiron somehow as like the only thing standing between you and me being together. Yeah, and so maybe she can manipulate her that way into assisting her, and yeah, but still that there's no way you can hide that kind of relationship, though you may think you can.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but somebody's gonna know well, and here's the thing too, like like uh, now I did find one testimony of Terry reporting that they had like a physical relationship, but that's the only with Terry's other relationship, because later it comes out that Terry was having an affair with like another dude and possibly Kane was having an affair as well, but that's not as focused on because, since he's not under suspicion, right, but it was pretty obvious that she was having an affair with this dude. She was like sexting him and shit like that. Yeah, like pretty graphically. And so I would think that if she was carrying on an affair with Deedee, that you would see similar kind of evidence. Yeah, and you don't see that, right. But yeah, I thought that that might be a reason that she would be motivated to assist her. Yeah, but even then a child Like I can much easier see like If it was a husband.
Speaker 1:Let's get the husband out of the way, then let's get this kid out of the way than let's get this kid out of the way. And but I also. It also occurred to me like what if she didn't have Chiron and picked up Dee Dee for a secret romantic rendezvous or picnic or something at Suave Island?
Speaker 1:That could be like an innocent possibility of why dd and terry were unaccounted for and why she wouldn't be forthright about her whereabouts. But again, since that's probably less likely also since what am I trying to say? Since she wasn't very subtle about her other affairs, Right? So I don't know why she would be so much more careful about that one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I think that, probably, that certainly, of course, we can understand Desiree's frustration and her desire to seek justice for her child, yeah, but I think that she does have a little bit of goggles on when it comes to Terry. Yeah, and not saying again that Terry is not, you know, the prime suspect in this case, because she definitely is yeah, there's a lot pointing to her. But it doesn't seem like there is evidence that there's a physical relationship.
Speaker 2:No, and none of the motives that are floating around feel they're not super strong. No, and you don't need a motive to have a trial or to prove guilt. Yeah, but juries sure like it Well, and we also.
Speaker 1:but we also don't have of course is a body, yeah, that's, I think you know, the main reason why they can't bring charges against her right there's no body, there's no evidence there. Well, there I did see a report that maybe they found some DNA evidence of Chiron in the bed of the pickup truck the pickup truck but there could also be innocent motivations for them. Yeah, so again, none of that is really like clearly showing, like know, is there?
Speaker 1:like you know? Like, uh, derrick said like, did they find mud on like the tires of the pickup? That, yeah, was mud from suave. It's like something like that that would be very.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Exactly. But, or was it?
Speaker 2:sparkling clean at night, when it wasn't in the morning.
Speaker 1:You know, but it's not. Yeah, exactly yeah, like yeah if it's suddenly clean. But that's also evidence, right, like yeah, oh, it wasn't so clean.
Speaker 2:Well, that's what I mean. Yeah, now she's gotten it cleaned.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's suspicious.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um so her behavior is suspicious, but yeah, her behavior is definitely suspicious, yeah, but there are so many other possibilities yeah, there are other possibilities that to me seem just as likely yeah so, um, because it's it seems, there's no cameras in the school no, there were.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that, yeah, I should have mentioned that. No cameras in the school, no cameras outside the school. Now there are 2010 guys, but so so, yeah, all we have are these whatever different eyewitness testimonies that are giving different kinds of stories. Yeah, Yep and in the Crime Daily podcast they talked about. They said, oh well, whatever. Terry changed her story that she had first said that they went up the different staircases and then later she said she went up the staircase with Chiron, but after digging into it.
Speaker 1:It seems like the only source of that information was desiree, yeah, and so that's not like as much as I. As I understand desiree's position, I don't think that her word is like that super credible no, especially since she hates terry. Yeah, I need a more objective uh source for that. Yeah, so um, oh, another thing that people point to terry she failed the polygraph exam. I hate that shit.
Speaker 1:I hate the polygraph stuff yeah I hate I would fail it because polygraphs are trash and there's a reason they're not used in court. Using court, and then what they say? She failed two polygraphs, but she failed the first one and then she walked out of the second, and some sources say that she walked out because she was frustrated. Remember, I said she has an older son. Her older son reported that she walked out because she's hard of hearing and she couldn't hear the questioner's questions. Yeah, and they wouldn't allow her to read his lips, and so she left yeah, allow her to read his lips. And so she left yeah, um, so again, his testimony is also subjective, so it's all. Yeah, he should. He said she said stuff, have they?
Speaker 2:corroborate cora, corroborated with other people like her friends who know that she's hard of hearing not that I could see okay, yeah, because I mean that would seem to be an easy thing to figure out if that's true or not right, there's a lot of things that I would think are easy to yeah to.
Speaker 1:To determine whether or not, what day the doctor's appointment was on, whether she's hard of hearing um, there isn't like. Desiree also reported that the school had a system where they would like grade the kids like a behavior grade. It would be like green, yellow or red and that, like what am I trying to say? That Terry was really hard on Kyron about whether or not he had to get like a green behavior score and if he got a yellow, or obviously a red, but if he got a yellow, even then he would be in trouble and grounded to his room. But again, the only source of that seems to be Desiree. In the Crime Weekly podcast, they reported that other parents said they don't recall such a system, and I'm like this like ask the teacher yeah, this should be easy to determine, yeah, yeah. So I mean, I know that some schools do have systems like that, right, I think that more and more schools are getting rid of them because they're crap, right, but especially in 2010. Yeah, I could see schools having systems like that yeah.
Speaker 1:But they should still have asked. Yeah, yeah, there should be a factual answer to these questions. Yeah, yeah, there should be a factual answer to these questions. Yeah, either, there should be a factual answer to many of these questions and there doesn't seem to be, or one that is not available to the public.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:So, again, we don't know what kind of evidence the police are sitting on, yeah, but it's obviously not enough evidence to indict terry, right? So I don't know if there is any. Oh, emails, uh, there's also like emails. I guess those reports of the red and green were part of that. But I guess, again, desiree reported that Terry had sent emails where she expressed negative feelings toward Chiron and maybe even expressed like aggression towards Chiron, and there seems to be some some, perhaps some, differing accounts between desiree and kane on this one. Now we know that I didn't I haven't reported on this part yet because I kind of lost the plot but like, shortly after this all went down uh, kane uh left desiree, basically, and he like took off. He took off with kiara and did he left desiree or he left terry.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry he left terry, my bad, he had already left desiree. He left terry and he like took off with kiara and and terry was real pissed and she was like you have to bring my kid back and and he was like no, don't.
Speaker 1:And she called 911 and they were like no, he doesn't have to bring her back because he's a parent and he has custodial rights too. And so shortly after that then he initiated divorce proceedings. But their divorce was really long and drawn out because of Terry's position as a a person of interest. They never officially named her as like a suspect, right, so she was just a person of interest. But because of that uh criminal investigation, the it drew out the divorce proceedings, basically, and there was a custody battle between between uh terry and and kane over kiara and, and kane won yeah um, but I think later on she did earn some limited custody rights to kiara.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what else? Years later she tried to change her name like twice, two different times, and the first time that, the first time, the judge said no because, like you're a person of interest in this uh, ongoing criminal investigation.
Speaker 1:Even though it's been years, like I don't, it's still open. Yeah, investigation. And uh, so he said, no, you can't change her name. Yeah, and then, like a little bit later, she tried again to change her name to a slightly different name and that time, like there was a big online petition, uh, resisting her changing her name, and so that got around and and she was unable to change her name. So I think that time she dropped it, yeah, and she just unable to change her name. So I think that's how she dropped it, yeah, and she just went and started going by her maiden name, which I think is like more none or something like that. Yeah, I'm sure I have it right here in my notes and if I would open them and look at them then I would find it.
Speaker 2:That's okay. That's all right. She went by her maiden name, that's all we need to know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, she went by her maiden name and the reason she reported she wanted to change her name was because she was having a lot of trouble finding jobs and stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I imagine and that is a legit concern. It is Like I'm not saying.
Speaker 2:Just because they're a suspect, they aren't guilty yet, so they should still be able to have a life I'm not saying she's not even a suspect. She's just a person of interest.
Speaker 1:I'm not saying sympathy for murderers, but I'm saying that people are innocent. Are innocent until proven guilty and that they should not be denied the right to work and earn money and earn a living and support themselves again. Yeah, if she, if she is guilty, then like you know, and she doesn't seem like a terribly good person- yeah, I mean yeah like she doesn't seem like that good of a person she's the kind of person who, you know, sleeps around with someone who's married.
Speaker 1:She's the kind of person who is like, maybe not a great friend and and she's also maybe not a great parent. Again, it's hard to say, though.
Speaker 2:It's hard to say yeah, although the husband doesn't sound like a great person either. He's no, he doesn't say no.
Speaker 1:I I fully agree. He doesn't sound like a great person either. And they they talked about, like when he found out that like Desiree was pregnant, he was like oh, you think I want this kid, yeah, and like obviously you changed his tune, right, but like I mean, it seemed like both of them were maybe not the best of people. Both of them were maybe not the best of people, not saying that they didn't love their kid, and maybe, you know, you could be maybe not a great adult person, but be a great parent to your kid as well.
Speaker 2:Do we know why he was granted custody?
Speaker 1:Because it seems like he was the one cheating, so you would think she would get custody. Yeah, she said that she was suffering from some type of illness.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, okay, she would get custody. Yeah, she said that that she was suffering from some type of illness. Okay, yeah, okay, yeah, because he doesn't seem like a great dad either. No, he doesn't right. No, that whole family seems real fucked up.
Speaker 1:I mean I, I guess I shouldn't be saying that, because I don't fucking know for sure. But you know, like I mean, maybe he is a fantastic dad.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, I mean, he took his son to meet his mistress. Yeah, yeah, that's not a good dad.
Speaker 1:To me that's not great, I agree, I agree, but, like you know, I mean like he seemed like he loved his kid, his kid was fed, cared for and all of those things. Yeah, like I like. I mean, obviously that is the fucking like bare minimum. But right yeah, in this world where we're talking about a child who was potentially murdered, yeah, I would say that that is the bar, yeah, yeah and no, I'm not suggesting that dad did it, I'm just saying I don know that neither of them seem like pleasant people.
Speaker 2:No, no.
Speaker 1:The other thing that gets me is like is like that the stepdad was like a cop and I'm like could she really commit this, like murder, right under this cop's nose and like get away with it? I mean I guess you could, but like that's ballsy. Yeah, not saying that she wasn't ballsy or that, but I mean, what do you think about that? Do you think that's a factor at all or not?
Speaker 2:I don't know. I would say it would depend on how smart she thinks she is, yeah, or how solid a plan she thinks she has.
Speaker 1:I mean it seemed like she was pretty she, I mean was is Seemed like she definitely. I mean, maybe was as appropriate though, because this is kind of a paradigm shifting event that changes the course of your life and it probably changes your attitude about a lot of things but it seemed like she was a very self-confident woman. Yeah, um, ostentatious, even you know. Yeah, all of those things some people said narcissistic, uh, or at least the podcaster I listened to said narcissistic. I don't know if I've seen evidence of narcissism, but she certainly seemed like she was a very confident woman who was very self-possessed.
Speaker 2:I guess that's right, yeah, that also doesn't really mean anything yeah, you know, I mean people always point the it doesn't. It doesn't really mean anything. Yeah, you know, I mean people always point the finger at women who are like that, it doesn't mean anything, but it could be that she thought she could get away with it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it could mean she thought she could get away with it. Or, on the other hand, it could mean like, oh, here's this bold redhead with her bold red car and her vanity plate, and she thinks that she can do this and that kind of thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, vanity play, and she thinks that she can do this and that, yeah, kind of thing. Yeah, the true crime thing, though, like, yes, I could see where people would say, well, she watches all that true crime, so she thinks she can get away with it. But I would also say true crime could also make a person think, oh, I can't get away with it right, particularly when it comes with me.
Speaker 1:Not that I'm thinking, I'm just to make it clear. I'm not thinking about murdering anybody, right? But it makes it clear to me that people usually cannot get away with it right, but I mean specifically children, because it's always the parents who are suspected first.
Speaker 2:Like she would, she would have to know that she would be under she would have to know, particularly she would be under scrutiny Right. She would have to know Particularly step-parents. If there are any, they are the first really and like whatever, Derek. Derek, yes, derek.
Speaker 1:One of the things he pointed out was like that moment where she said that she saw him go into the classroom. She could have just said I sent him to his classroom and I didn't see where he went. Yeah, like, that would have given her plausible deniability for him disappearing and her not knowing. Yeah, like, if she's trying to get away with it, why is she saying I saw him go into the classroom, right?
Speaker 2:is she?
Speaker 1:saying I saw him go into the classroom, like to me that gives her, does it takes away that leeway if she's trying to get away with something. Yeah, yeah, because, yeah, he's, he's not out of her sight until he steps into that classroom. Yeah, the the only thing that, as the other podcaster, stephanie, who was suspicious of her that is an understated comment said that maybe because she's this type of personality who she doesn't want to look like, she was a negligent parent in any way and let her child out of her sight, and so she wants to let it be known that, like it wasn't her, like she didn't let him out of her sight. Yeah, she saw him enter the classroom, but then again, why would you make up this story of like he was at the other end of the hallway, like wouldn't you say, say I walked him right into the classroom, then yeah, or I walked him right to the door rather than I saw him from down the hall. I don't know, yeah, I don't know either. I don't know. I mean again, lots of people who are murdering or, yeah, premeditating, and all make a lot of irrational decisions so I mean there's that
Speaker 1:to be yeah, yeah to be said. Um, I'm trying to see if there's anything else. Oh, that friend, uh, dd spicer, she uh also took a polygraph test, which, which she passed Not that that means that much, no, she was. Also, she said that she cut some kind of deal with the police and that she is no longer viewed as like a person of interest in the case. So, I'm not sure, a deal with the police. That's what she said In an article. That's what she said in an article. That's what she said Interesting. I don't know what kind of deal like, for what information she was getting. Ooh, ooh, ooh. Here's a big thing that I forgot to mention. Okay, is that her and Terry. After like a couple of weeks, I'm sorry, a couple of weeks after Kyron went missing, her and Terry were communicating through burner phones that DeeDee purchased, and DeeDee said that they got the burner phones because Terry was was, one, afraid that her, all her shit was bugged, which it was yeah, and two, because there was all this attention, negative attention, on her or whatever, and she just wanted the privacy yeah
Speaker 1:and so. But the burner phone thing is another thing that people are like this looks pretty bad, yeah. My thing about the burner phones is like it's like when they have wanted the burner phones before, yeah, and not after. But I mean, I guess after you could be communicating suspicious stuff too. Yeah so, but again Dee Dee is no longer a person of interest in the case at all. Yeah so, but again Dee Dee is no longer a person of interest in the case at all. Yeah, so, so that kind of I don't know what's going on with that.
Speaker 2:That kind of takes away that ooh, that kind of takes away that motive.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, but what do you think about that burner phone thing?
Speaker 2:Well, I mean it's suspicious. But I can understand, yeah, you know you want. I imagine being under scrutiny like that is very disconcerting, yeah, and very bothersome, and it should be, it should be, it should be. But, um, I can understand the desire to just have a little bit of privacy but not a smart move.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, not a smart move. No At all. If she legitimately is, yeah, just looking for some privacy, yeah, that's a way to to get it, but at the same time, like you have to, you would think you would want to stop and think, yeah, and be like this doesn't really look that good to do, yeah but I mean, at that point you may not be thinking yeah, you know I mean your police think you're guilty.
Speaker 2:Probably your husband thinks you're guilty. You know the the everybody's after you, right, like even if she were completely and totally innocent, there is always going to be people in the public who are? Going to say the parents did it, or that she did, or whatever you know, um, always, uh, no matter what's done. So I can, I can understand making dumb, dumb choices, I guess, because your brain, your brain's just yeah, it's not working right and uh, I also neglected to say that the police did a bunch of searches on Suave Island.
Speaker 1:They searched the water, they searched the island multiple times, right and nothing, nothing Again. That doesn't mean that there isn't a body.
Speaker 2:They just haven't found it.
Speaker 1:They just haven't found it. They just haven't found it.
Speaker 2:Yeah so.
Speaker 1:I mean, I imagine that if they ever found a body that they might try and bring up charges against Terry.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I mean, Unless they got more solid, circumstantial evidence, because it is possible to do new body trials? Yeah, and try them successfully.
Speaker 1:Or that, but at this point so far away from like 2010.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, it would need to be like a body and the body would have to have.
Speaker 1:It seems less and less likely that they would find other kinds of evidence. Yeah, so yeah, or unless Chiron somehow turns up alive and was like yeah, because that's what happened to me.
Speaker 2:Every time a child goes missing and they don't find the body, I think of that kid who was kidnapped and held hostage by the guy, and then you know, like years and he was a teenager, he was when he was a child, he was abducted, and then, years later, he comes back. What was when he was a child? He was abducted, and then, years later, he comes back. What was his name? Tommy? Uh, all right, steven, my name is steven, or I think my name is steven, I don't know. His brother turned out to be a serial killer, jesus, I know. And he died not too long after, yeah, in a motorcycle accident. Hold on, let me. Let me google that.
Speaker 1:But these things happen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean they're rare but it's not unheard of. Yeah, I know my first name is Steven, that was the movie, but that's how everybody kind of remembers it. So he yeah, he had been kidnapped Steven Stainer was his name and held and kind of raised by his kidnapper. Yeah, to the point where he didn't even really remember.
Speaker 1:Wasn't there also that girl who went missing and was held for years by her kidnapper? Yeah, there's been a few.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So, yeah, he was abducted when he was seven years old, and then that's exactly how old chiron was. Yeah, he was uh molested and um that's terrible pornographic images were released. Uh, when he was 14, the kidnapper uh abducted another little boy, and then so steven built up the courage to like get them out, and that's how they found out. Um, so it's not unheard of, but very rare. Okay, we should probably stop now, unless there's anything else to say yeah, let's go ahead and stop.
Speaker 1:Um, we need to talk about her book.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm trying to think if there's anything really important to say. Yeah, the only thing that I was saying about those emails is that Terry had reported that or Desiree had reported too many names for me to keep track of who's who. Desiree had reported that Terry had sent some emails insinuating like, like, maybe aggressive motives against terry or kyron, and uh, kane later in an interview seemed to confirm that maybe, that there were, were some kind of emails, but he uh couldn't reveal what the contents were. And then later, later on Dr Phil, he seemed to disagree that that the emails contained the kind of content that uh, desiree was saying that they included and that, and that maybe he didn't see any evidence that that she was like violent or whatever towards kyron.
Speaker 1:Um, so, yeah, and the thing, the thing is that that that uh also not saying, of course, parents murder their kids all the time, yeah, but uh, she was his primary caregiver since he was like a baby. Yeah, pretty much, and so it's. I mean, you know, this would have been somebody that she pretty much raises her own kid, right, um, yeah, and people kill their own kids, yeah they sure do and everybody acts like it's a surprise every time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that she's definitely the main suspect. I mean, there's no other suspects that we can point to right? Yeah, and she's acted suspiciously. Yes, and she's acted suspiciously yes, and she has acted suspiciously. We have, uh, some circumstantial evidence, but definitely not enough to conclusively say that she did it, and there are definitely other possibilities open in this case, yes, so okay, the book was called Long Haul. And it felt like a long haul, even though it wasn't that long of a book.
Speaker 2:It was called Long Haul Hunting the Highway Serial Killers by Frank Figliuzzi, who was an assistant director of the FBI.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So Rachel read the whole thing? I have to confess I did not. I had intended to finish it yesterday on my long ass drive up to Albuquerque and back, but that didn't wind up happening. So I've only got about 50 pages read, I would say. So I don't have a lot to say, except that what I read I thought was pretty good yeah, I mean, but it's not enough to get that deep into it.
Speaker 1:I mean, it was kind of interesting. If you want to learn about sex trafficking and especially like sex trafficking's relationship with truck driving, yeah, uh, I think that that this is a good book for that, and I learned quite a bit about trucking itself. Um, the there's not so much strong focus on, like the serial killers.
Speaker 2:Um, I mean, in some ways, I I guess it's good, right, we're focusing on the victims and stuff of the serial killers, yeah, but like if the the title suggests that there should be more serial killer hunting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, and I thought that we were gonna see like a focus on like yeah, like I don't know more of an in-depth analysis of like what this is. What is like half of the book is like is like him going on like a long, whatever haul truck week-long adventure with his new truck driving buddy and and learning about trucking yeah, which is important, is important, and it was informational. Yeah, and it seemed like fun for him. It seems like a man's fun vacation, like let's learn about trucking.
Speaker 2:Well, it is kind of a world that I mean we pass by these trucks every day but we don't really know anything about it.
Speaker 1:And how important truckers are to the economy. Yeah, thinking about how stressful like, especially like the produce trucking is, yeah, oh my God. I mean he didn't talk too long about the produce trucking because the trucker he was with wasn't like a produce trucker. Yeah, wasn't like a produce trucker, yeah, but he, he, he mostly he interviewed with this guy and then he also interviewed with, like, an older guy who was like a retire, retired trucker and who had done all kinds of different trucking, and so those were his main sources for the trucking information. And then he also, uh, interviewed with some, some researchers who work with sex trafficking, with prostitution in America, and particularly with the truck stop.
Speaker 1:Well, I don't know if they particularly work with the truck stop sex trafficking, but they were able to speak to it at least, and that both of these researchers are involved in programs that help get women out of sex trafficking situations and get them safely out, instead of just throwing them in jail, which is what happens in most cases.
Speaker 1:And so I felt like that was really informative of sex trafficking and responsibility on the men who are clients of these women, who, who most of them were minors when they entered into this situation, and there's a lot of emphasis on like what went wrong with these girls and like like, of course, yeah, rather than why are the men gross like that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and why are the men gross like yeah?
Speaker 1:why are the men, gross like that. Why do we have a global environment I was gonna say this country, but it's a global environment where it's so easy to victimize women, yeah, in these kinds of ways. Yeah, um, yeah, and so, but I, I I liked learning about these researchers. I, I liked learning about, uh, yeah, I liked learning about the world of these sex workers. Um, and I I did wish that I was learning about their world from, like, maybe one of these researchers directly, or from a woman maybe. Yeah, because I felt like maybe there is something a little bit missing.
Speaker 2:Uh, but that would be a different book.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it would be a different book, and he did say that one of the women that he, that he interviewed with, that he was telling her story, that she is going to be writing a book about her life and stuff.
Speaker 1:So I thought that that was really good. So I can keep an eye out for that. Um but, yeah, um so, but that wasn't like I didn't not that that isn't something that I didn't want to learn about. I did enjoy. I enjoy learning about it because it's not like, oh, I love learning about. You know, uh, how these women are are being victimized.
Speaker 2:Um, but I think anybody would think that by you saying it, I think most people would know no, I know, but I said it was interesting I feel like I have to clarify um but, but it wasn't interesting.
Speaker 1:But it wasn't quite what I had expected, especially, especially because he does talk about how some of these killers, while many of of them, most of them, prosecuted, where is my brain going? What is my brain doing right now? Well, many of them targeted like prostitutes, right, and that's common for killers who are not drivers or truck drivers or whatever, because these are victims that are often not missed or dismissed.
Speaker 1:And yeah, like they talked about, um, like you talked about and this was another thing that I thought was annoying he was like oh, these cops aren't treating this situation right. Bad on you, fellow cops.
Speaker 1:And it's like yeah, like this whole system yeah like needs to be really reformed like um, uh, how, um, like some of these, uh, truck driving killers target people who are not prostitutes and even like going and like breaking into people's homes and like trying to like snatch girls, which is just nuts, and that part freaked me out. And when he was talking about how some some truck driver went and like broke into somebody's home to like snatch their teenage daughter and like and like because they they heard her like make a sound and like they woke up and both of the parents were fighting off this driver and like they did win, thankfully, but I went and like locked all the doors yeah I was like no drivers coming in get my daughter.
Speaker 1:But of course not that that is a common scenario, but it's it's very scary.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's gonna happen. Yeah, I remember there being a forensic file of like a truck driver picking up a girl but yeah, overall.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah, it was, it was. I mean, it's not bad, it just wasn't the book I expected. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a short book and, from what I read, yes, it was very informative and some of the stuff I already knew because my stepdad former stepdad was a trucker.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I remember, you told me.
Speaker 2:Some of it made things driving on I-10 make more sense. Yeah, like the drivers only getting like a week or two of training. Yeah, you know, it was like that that that tracks yeah, that tracks.
Speaker 1:The part that uh really uh surprised me is I didn't know that there's not enough space at truck stops for all the drivers and they have to like sleep on the side of the road yeah, you see that you, oh, you don't, I forget you don't drive.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you see them all the time, like bathroom stops and and those little um they look like exits but it's not an exit. You know what I mean? Um, they're there and, yeah, sometimes they just pull off the shoulder of the road they have. I was like that's madness. It is madness there's so many truckers on the road.
Speaker 1:I mean that's most of the traffic on i-10 yeah, you would think that truck stops would be bigger business you would think I, I, they're everywhere.
Speaker 2:I mean like if when you drive down i-10 there's like truck stops on all four corners yeah of that, of that intersection or whatever. You know what I mean, like the underpass thing yeah, you know what I mean. Um, but yeah, there's not enough. Yeah, no, I I expected to be told about actual serial killers. Like, have actual serial killer stories?
Speaker 1:yeah, mentioned, maybe he does he does a bit, but yeah, it's, but it's not the bulk of the book.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's probably not his fault. I mean, I don't think he's the one who came up with the tagline or the messaging or whatever. That's somebody else.
Speaker 1:But I mean it is interesting and learning about the intersection of all of those things sex trafficking, long-haul trucking and violent crime then it's a good book to read.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's definitely informative.
Speaker 1:Just be aware that those other topics do feature heavily yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, so that was our last book. Our next book we decided was Helter Skelter, yep, by Vincent Bugliozzi. The thing here also says Kurt Gentry, although I never remember that he's part of it. But yes, so we're going to go cult. Yep, we're going to talk about Manson.
Speaker 1:Well, I figure, since we did kind of serial killer. Yeah, then we can go.
Speaker 2:We can go for cults, yeah yeah, so that'll be four episodes from now. I think this is episode 28, so that would be episode 32. Yep, if we're on episode no, this has to be 28. This has to be 28. This has to be 28. Okay, so it's going to be episode 32. Four episodes from now. We will discuss Helter Skelter, which is a much longer book. Yes, but we'll do it. We'll do it.
Speaker 2:It's almost Christmas break for me, so I'm going to, Unless I have jury duty, in which case that's going to suck, get the audiobook.
Speaker 1:There has to be an audiobook of.
Speaker 2:Helter Skelter. Oh, there is, there is a Helter Skelter.
Speaker 1:I would have thought that there was an audiobook of Ring too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you would have thought that, but apparently there isn't no. Let me double check for the audiobook, Although I'm sure if anybody's listening to this they've probably read Helter Skelter already.
Speaker 1:It's kind of a classic. But Ring also has the added uh component of required translation.
Speaker 2:Yes, uh, helter skelter does have an audiobook and it is narrated by scott brick. That name sounds very familiar. What has he done? Nothing, I have read he. He narrates the Holy Bible, if you're interested in that, nope Atlas, shrugged God, that was a slog.
Speaker 1:Oh, jesus Christ. Yeah, those are all the books. I could put all those things on a list of books that I don't want to read.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean it was interesting, but it was a lot. That's very diplomatic of you.
Speaker 1:It was a lot.
Speaker 2:I didn't hate it. I don't agree with her. Yeah, at all. I think she must have had some secret BDSM kink going on. But yeah, I mean it was Okay. I'm going to say it again it was interesting. If you want to be part of that discussion, that's a good book to read. Yeah, none of these. I know they're mostly dude books, like Tom Clancy.
Speaker 1:Tom Clancy. Oh, my daddy used to be a huge Tom Clancy fan. Yeah, my grandpa was too.
Speaker 2:I've read one of his. It's not bad. It's kind of like a lot of those big authors where it's kind of all the same, yeah, okay. Anyway. So Helter Skelter, next episode, and I will also be doing the main doohickey, the main story, and I think that's it, we won't talk anymore about private things.
Speaker 1:Did you read any other books?
Speaker 2:Oh, we are going to talk for that? No, I thought we weren't. I was going to. Okay, just briefly, brief, brief, brief. No, I did not. I brought books with me. I was attempting to reread Jane Eyre on the boat.
Speaker 1:Did you finish the Exorcist? I did not finish the Exorcist.
Speaker 2:I want to. That is the plan. I'm devastated. I know that is the plan. It's just that I didn't feel like bringing anything horrorish on the boat. Yeah, considering that I was in a confined space, I can understand that, because you freak yourself out yeah, um, so no, I I haven't. I haven't read anything. I've started many. I started to reread jane eyre, I started to reread you brought like into the drowning deep, the Drowning Deep, no.
Speaker 1:A Joan Didion book. It's a Darcy Coates one.
Speaker 2:No, thank you, I started a Joan Didion one and there is, oh, I think maybe I mentioned this on the other episode, but there is the. Why am I blanking on the name? Um, hold on, that is not the word.
Speaker 1:From that's the darcy coats book, gabbledon. Uh, so not the outlander, not the outlander, but the um lord john series.
Speaker 2:So I I started one of those on audiobook, which I love. I love the audiobooks, yes, um, but no, I haven't finished any. I have a long list. How about you?
Speaker 1:did I talk about? I talked about the nestlings, right, yes. And did I talk about devils?
Speaker 2:kill devils no, did you go ahead and read that one? I did you shit. You're supposed to read that together.
Speaker 1:Oh, I, I didn't know that I was feeling vampiric.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's why I mentioned it, because I was also feeling vampiric. I read devils, don't tell me what you think of it.
Speaker 1:I won't okay. I read devils kill devils, and I also read another vampire book which was her dead, the lesser dead by Christopher Bowman, which was very good yeah.
Speaker 2:I take it none of these were like that ADHD vampire. No, that scene pops up in my head all the time and it's so gross. Which one? Well, there are a few, but the the shit. No, the one where they're having an orgy. Oh yeah, the guy with the dildo on his forehead, yeah, I that book was had so much more like sex and like poop and stuff yeah, it's bizarre, yeah, it's bizarro fiction um also like the characters were like 60, but then they act like they were like 80 or 90. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I was like dude, we're not that old. I was like my man. Have you met a 60 year old? Yeah, I also read David Copperfield. Oh, yeah, you mentioned that.
Speaker 2:We're supposed to be reading that together. I haven't finished that one yet.
Speaker 1:Well, I was like I want to read this book before the end of the year so. I was like it's a monster.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's an awesome accomplishment.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and.
Speaker 2:I wish I had that kind of drive.
Speaker 1:And it was pretty decent. Yeah, it was pretty decent. Ancient complaints to Charles Dickens about doing what he preaches, treating women the way that he preaches, yeah, but other than that, yeah, I pretty enjoyed it, and some of the characters were even quite delightful. Um the god, I already forget the names of the characters. Mr uh mccauber mr mcauber, is that his name? The dude who he, he goes?
Speaker 1:He, he's this man who cannot manage his finances, for shit, and he is always getting himself into immense amounts of debt. And he is very eloquent and always goes off on these long speeches, yeah, speeches, yeah, and, and at at near the end, like he, he, he gets his heroic moment where he, he gets to reveal his proof about the, the bad guy that he's. He's been, um, doing all these bad things without going too much into it. Yeah, and, and he has this ridiculously long and excessively wordy letter. He even refers to himself as Shakespearean and it's hilarious. Yeah, so Anything else? The Exorcist we mentioned, so that is it. Yep, Okay, just those five books we mentioned, so that is it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, just those like we have some movies we're gonna watch, some the mall chopping or whatever that one was. Yeah, the mall chopping yeah, are we? Gonna watch vamps? Yeah, we can watch vamps if we can find it. Yeah, for sure. So we're gonna. We're gonna watch some weird horror? Yep, I guess yay, and also ring, because I've never watched it right we're gonna, and we're gonna.
Speaker 1:We're going to watch some weird horror, yep.
Speaker 2:I guess Yay and also Ring because I've never watched it Right.
Speaker 1:And we're going to watch the Ring and Ringu both versions, yeah, both versions. But we are going to read the book first.
Speaker 2:Yes, we are, so that we can bitch, about how different it is. Yes, Okay, all right.
Speaker 1:You're going to have a whole different perspective from it than me, though, because I saw the movie when I was like 13.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so Okay. Well, that's exciting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is exciting, okay, so but also the movie that I'm familiar with right the. American version is based off of the Japanese movie, which is based off of the Japanese book.
Speaker 2:Okay, oh, so it's got layers. Yes, it does have layers.
Speaker 2:Like rings, yeah, so it'll. There you go. It'll probably be like a game of telephone, yeah, you know. Yeah, that's how I think of translations sometimes. Anyway, it doesn't matter, okay. Okay, so Helter Skelter is our next one. Yep, and thank you for listening. Please follow us on Instagram, facebook. You can do both our personal and our podcast. You can email us. All of that information is down in the box, description box or whatever it's called, and we would love to hear from you. Okay, so, all right, we will talk to you later. Yep, bye.
