Details Are Sketchy
A bimonthly true crime podcast, in which two friends share an unsolved disappearance or unsolved case, a crime they're most intrigued by, and talk all things true crime.
Details Are Sketchy
The Starvation Doctor: Linda Hazzard
In this episode, Kiki tells the story of "Dr" Linda Hazzard and her extreme diet plan. And then we discuss Helter Skelter. As always, we talk a little about what we've been watching and reading. There's no missing person this week.
Our next book is "The Dinosaur Artist: Obsession, Betrayal, and the Quest for Earth's Ultimate Trophy" by Paige Williams.
Sources:
Smithsonian - "The Doctor Who Starved Her Patients to Death" by Bess Lovejoy
Wikipedia - Linda Hazzard
Get in touch with us:
Instagram: Details Are Sketchy - @details.are.sketchy
Facebook: Details Are Sketchy - @details.are.sketchy.2023
Instagram: Kiki - @kikileona84
Instagram: Rachel - @eeniemanimeenienailz
Email: details.are.sketchy.pod@gmail.com
shall we do our intro? Yeah, can you hear me? I feel like this is different. I put my microphone up now we're having like cold ass, cold openings, yeah all right, I'm kiki and I'm rachel, and this is details are sketchy, a true crime podcast, and it is my case today yep did you get a missing person or are we doing no missing?
Speaker 2:person again. Oh shit, no way, like I was reading until like five minutes, I know, I know it's okay.
Speaker 1:It's okay, I didn't even think about it. Yeah, I still have 100 pages to go, but I'm going to wing the last 100. Close enough? Yeah, I don't think much happened, other than somebody disappeared. The lawyer yeah, we'll talk about that later, anyway, okay, so, no missing person. We're starting off the new year right.
Speaker 2:With a giant ass, wordy book.
Speaker 1:That is very true I listened to the audio version.
Speaker 2:Does that book have small print? Because I read some reviews and somebody said it has small print. Oh yeah, what the fuck that's small. I didn't think it was small at all it's like tight.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's tight, definitely tight. Yeah. Yeah, there are a lot of pictures, though, but still, that doesn't take up the it's. It's very wordy. I want to see the pictures.
Speaker 2:Okay, I didn't get to see pictures because I was in the audiobook.
Speaker 1:Well, let's do that when we get to it. Okay, because I kind of want to talk about the pictures.
Speaker 2:Okay, all right.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:All right, you can show me the pictures. That whoops Okay, when we talk about it.
Speaker 1:All right. So today I'm going to do my case no Missing Person and then we're going to talk about our book Helter Skelter, yep, and then we will tell you what our next book is.
Speaker 2:That occupying, like the past, like entire week of my life.
Speaker 1:And we will also talk about the other stuff we've been reading and watching, other than the depressing stuff. That's happening, that we're going to pretend for now is not happening, because I need to live blissfully for a little bit longer.
Speaker 2:We know it's happening and like at this point, it's just like I don't know. Yeah.
Speaker 1:The fires, the inauguration. I just kind of I need to. I'm going to be talking about a lot of depressing stuff this semester anyway. So I kind of like just want one more day of like blissful ignorance Right, yeah, stuff this semester anyway. So I kind of like just want one more day of like blissful ignorance, right yeah, until I have to go out into the world and deal with it all right. So if, uh, you hear something, I am, I do have my cough drop because I still have my cough, and we also have some valentine's candy because it's my favorite time of year.
Speaker 2:I do have one thought thing yeah that you cannot search LGBT on the White House website anymore. There is no entry.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that doesn't surprise me, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:That is all.
Speaker 1:Okay, so my case is probably going to be very short. It's on Linda Hazard, also known I think she's also known as the starvation doctor. Doctor is a loose term.
Speaker 2:That's a cool name for a not cool person. Yeah, you mean Hazard? Yeah, yeah, sounds like a superhero, but I guess she's a super villain.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, sounds like a superhero but I guess she's a super villain. Yeah, so Linda Hazard was born in Carver, Minnesota. Hazard is her married name.
Speaker 2:Okay, I was going to ask if she like changed her name to have like a whatever, like TV name or Not TV, but influencee name.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean, yeah, name. You know what I mean? Yeah, I know what you. She moved to washington at some point. She had no medical degree but was licensed to practice medicine in the state of washington because there was this loophole that grandfathered in some practitioners of alternative medicines without degrees. So she could technically, legally, call herself a doctor even though she had no actual medical training.
Speaker 2:Danger-oo Yep.
Speaker 1:She did study, at least according to her book the Science of Fasting. She studied under Dr Edward Hooker Dewey, who was a well-known proponent of fasting, and I don't know if he was a real doctor either. I didn't actually look him up. I should have done that, but it was 8 o'clock this morning and I wasn't thinking clearly, so you got.
Speaker 2:Dr Hazard and Dr Hooker.
Speaker 1:Was that his name? Oh, hooker Dewey yeah, hooker's his first name.
Speaker 2:name no it's his middle name, oh okay, yeah, maybe it's like somebody's somebody else's surname that got passed down is his middle name could happen sometimes.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So hazard developed a fasting method that she claimed was a remedy for all types of illnesses. She claimed that it rid the body of toxins that caused imbalances in the body. Over the course of her career, she wrote books about what she claimed to be the science behind fasting, especially her particular type of fasting and how it could cure diseases. The first was Fasting for the Cure of Disease, published in 1908, and it was later published under the title Scientific Fasting the Ancient and Modern Key to Health.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was sorry to interrupt but they let her publish with a name like what is it Fasting to cure disease? We'll talk about it, jesus. It's quite a name.
Speaker 1:She also wrote Diet and Disease in Systemic Cleansing, published in 1917. Hazard, while she was in Washington, established a sanitarium called Wilderness Heights, located in Olala. I don't know, I can hear it in my head because I heard it on Deadly Women, but I cannot for the life of me get it out of my mouth. Olala, it's O-L-AL-L-A. In Washington they always sound like they were saying O-L-L-A, but that's not it.
Speaker 2:That's what I want to say. O-l-l-a. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So her methods were not entirely unique. However, hers were extremely unorthodox. She believed that the root of all disease lay in food, specifically too much of it. Quote. Appetite is craving, hunger is desire. Craving is never satisfied, but desire is relieved when want is supplied. End quote. That is from her self-published book Fasting for the Cure of Disease. According to Hazard, the path to true health was to periodically let the digestive system quote rest through near total fasts of days or more. During this time, patients fasted for days, weeks or months on a diet consisting of small amounts of tomato, asparagus juice and occasionally oranges or orange juice. They would have their systems quote flushed with daily enemas and vigorous massages that nurses said sometimes sounded more like beatings.
Speaker 2:Why the enemas? It seems so unnecessary.
Speaker 1:It does seem unnecessary, but you got to rid the body of its toxins. Personally, I think she's just a sadist, but whatever.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there was something about I don't know like something about like diets and enemas. Isn't there what? When was this book written? Wasn't there like a period where enemas were like really popular?
Speaker 1:I think they've. They've come in and out of popularity over time.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So while some patients survived and publicly endorsed Hazard's methods, dozens died under her care. That is a little bit of an exaggeration, since everything I could find was a dozen or at most 17.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So let me see if I I was fading in and out of attention giving, so sorry, that's okay. I was fading in and out of attention giving, so sorry, that's okay. So they had the enemas and they were drinking like juice or eating like oranges or just fruit or whatever, and like how many days would they do that?
Speaker 1:Days, weeks or months At a time, consecutive. Yes, jesus, I actually have diary entries, which we'll talk about at the end.
Speaker 2:So that's it. That was the whole diet.
Speaker 1:Like consecutive days of, like tomato juice or oranges. It would be tomato like strained tomato broth, basically Asparagus broth and sometimes orange juice and one or two oranges a day.
Speaker 2:That reminds me of this other cookbook it was that french women don't get fat cookbook and they recommend some kind of like leek soup or something to whatever, kickstart your metabolism, which is not a fucking thing, right. But like she like puts the I don't remember exactly but you like cook the leek in the soup and then you like strain the fucking leek out, so you're basically just drinking like leek water. Yeah yeah, leek broth, leek water, same thing. I mean this whole industry is really not regulated.
Speaker 1:Yeah, even now. Okay, yeah, even now, okay. So hazard claimed that the deceased had succumbed to undisclosed. Undisclosed or hitherto undiagnosed illnesses such as cancer or psoriasis. To be fair, one of them did die of cancer. She would have starved to death anyway.
Speaker 1:I'll talk about that in a minute. Her opponents claimed that they all died of. Why was she going on a diet if she had cancer? I don't think she knew she had cancer. Oh, that's awful. Her opponents claimed that they all died of starvation. Local residents refer to the sanitarium as Starvation Heights. Yeah, so there's this author from that part of washington. His name is greg olson. He wrote a book on this called starvation heights. Oh wait, I meant to take that out. Sorry, I'm not save the part I wanted. Okay, so anyway, I accidentally deleted a bit.
Speaker 1:There are these two wealthy sisters whose names one is Claire and I think one is like Dorothy. Maybe they were very wealthy and they first saw an ad for Hazard's book in a newspaper while they were staying at the very lush Empress Hotel in Victoria, british Columbia. So they were not seriously ill, but they did feel that they were suffering from a variety of minor ailments. Okay, dorothea and Claire are their names. Minor ailments Okay, dorothea and Claire are their names. Dorothea complained of swelling glands and rheumatic pains, while Claire had been told she had a dropped uterus. The sisters were great believers in what we today would call alternative medicine.
Speaker 2:And had-. I was gonna ask you like why they thought that a diet would help with these problems, but you just answered the question.
Speaker 1:Well, I don't think that that's uncommon for the time. It's not even that uncommon today.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the idea that it's very true, I mean it's not uncommon, but like it should be. I know it shouldn't be, but I feel sick and people are like have you tried stop eating gluten? Yeah, have you tried stop eating gluten?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. So the sisters? Okay, they were believers in alternative medicine and had already given up both meat and corsets, so at least they did that in an attempt to improve their health. I'm sure the corsets must have helped. Yeah, getting rid of those would have helped quite a bit.
Speaker 1:Sure the corsets must have helped. Yeah, getting rid of those would have helped quite a bit. Almost as soon as they learned of hazard's institute of natural therapeutics see, I was confused by that, because she called it. What did she call it? Wilderness heights. But then the other another source called it, uh, institute of natural therapeutics, I don't know they became determined to undergo what Claire called Hazard's most beautiful treatment when the women reached Seattle so this is just outside Seattle in February 1911,. After signing up for the treatment, they were told that the sanitarium wasn't quite ready yet. So they instead were sent to Hazard's Apartments in Seattle's Capitol Hill, where she began feeding them a broth made from canned tomatoes. They would get a cup of it twice a day and nothing else. Jesus, I don't know if water was allowed or not.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was gonna ask because dehydration, yeah, I I assume they were allowed at least some water, unless the broth was considered but water doesn't make you fat, no, well, I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that they said no or or yes, I'm just saying there there was no mention of water.
Speaker 2:I mean, I guess like people are like water, wait and then like, but like that's not really wait, okay, so they got a cup of that twice a day and nothing else.
Speaker 1:they were given hours long enemas in the bathtub Hours long. I've never had one of those, but I can imagine how awful they are.
Speaker 2:How.
Speaker 1:I don't know, dude, I don't know, like I didn't read her book, so I can't tell you what her logic is.
Speaker 2:Isn't? I don't understand how an enema is hours long, isn't it just so like you do it, and then it's, I think they probably did a few different ones. Are you just doing it over and over because like? Probably yeah, flushed out.
Speaker 1:It's flushed out like what else I don't know, dude, I don't know, I think. I think she was a sadist. So they were given hourslong enemas in the bathtub, which was covered with canvas supports, because the girls started to faint during their treatment, because they have nothing in them.
Speaker 2:They're dehydrated. They're like starving. Well, again, we don't know if they had water or not. Well, I guess they're going to be hydrated from their multiple enemas, dehydrated from their multiple enemas.
Speaker 1:Okay, so they weighed about 70 pounds when they were transferred to Hazard's. It says Hazard's home. Two months later I don't know if they mean sanitarium or not this one was extremely frustrating because the various what do I want to call it? Because the various sources of information all said different things. It was very irritating. Okay, so I don't know if it was the home or the sanitarium.
Speaker 2:Their family. A sanitarium is the perfect place for a diet.
Speaker 1:Well, there were. I mean, a lot of the places where diets were done were sanitariums. Yeah, it's just a catch-all phrase for homes in places to go and convalesce places where we stick women men too. It's not just women in the that did this treatment.
Speaker 2:A lot of men did it how, what is, what is the percentage? Because usually it's mostly women who are dieting and like and are the targets of diets I don't think anybody did a percentage okay.
Speaker 1:So their family didn't know what was going on, as the sisters were used to their family disapproving of their various health quests and therefore didn't tell them where they were going. The only clue something was wrong came when one of them sent a telegram to their childhood nurse, margaret, who was then visiting family in Australia. Oh, I think the family was from New Zealand. I think the ladies were from New Zealand.
Speaker 2:How long were they doing this? At this point?
Speaker 1:Probably at least a few weeks, maybe a few months, I don't know. They didn't really say it contained only a few words, but seems so nonsensical that the nurse went to check up on them. Dr Hazard's husband I don't know, I shouldn't say Dr Hazard that lady's husband, Samuel Hazard, who was a former army lieutenant who, by the way, had served time in jail for bigamy Wow, Nice met Margaret in Vancouver and while they were on the bus to their hotel, Samuel delivered the news that Claire was dead. So one of the sisters had died, as Hazard later explained.
Speaker 2:You're like she's dead but she's thin.
Speaker 1:As Linda Hazard later explained it, the culprit was a course of drugs administered to Claire in childhood which had shrunk her internal organs and caused psoriasis of the liver. According to her, claire had been too far gone for the treatment to save her. Margaret wasn't a doctor, but she knew bullshit story when she heard one, and Claire's body, which had been embalmed and was on display at the local mortuary, looked like it belonged to another person. The hands, facial shape and color of the hair all looked wrong to her. That may or may not be important. Later, once she was in Olala now we're just going to call it that she discovered that, uh, dorothea weighed only around 50 pounds. Oh jesus christ, her sitting bones protruded so sharply that she couldn't sit down without pain.
Speaker 1:It's worked, huzzah yep but she didn't want to leave, despite the fact that she was clearly starving to death. What the fuck?
Speaker 2:What? Like you're as thin as can be. What else is there to do? I don't know what.
Speaker 1:I don't know. I doubt she was thinking clearly yeah.
Speaker 2:No, yeah, that's why she should be removed, because she's obviously not of sound mind. Yeah.
Speaker 1:The Hazards had been appointed the executor of Claire's considerable estate as well as Dorothea's guardian for life. Dorothea had also signed over her power of attorney to Samuel Hazard. Isn't that convenient? Yeah. The Hazards had helped themselves to Claire's clothes, household goods and an estimated $6,000 worth of the sisters' diamonds, sapphires and other jewels.
Speaker 2:You know they could have killed them in a more merciful fashion than that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Linda Hazard even delivered a report to Margaret concerning Dorothea's mental state while dressed in one of Claire's robes. So that was nice of her, although I do want to say this lady bought what she was selling. She believed in her thing We'll get to that in a minute Was she 50 pounds herself.
Speaker 1:We'll get to it. Margaret got nowhere. Trying to convince Hazard to let Dorothea leave Her position as a servant hindered her, as she often felt too timid to contradict those in a class above her. Hazard was also known for her power over people. She seemed to hypnotize them with her booming voice and flashing dark eyes. Some people wondered if Hazard's interest in spiritualism, theosophy and the occult had given her strange abilities such as being able to hypnotize people into starving themselves to death. Theosophy I don't know, that's the word that was used. I'm intrigued.
Speaker 1:It took the arrival of John Herbert, one of the sister's uncles, who Margaret had called in order to try and free Dorothea. In order for that to happen, he had to pay nearly a thousand dollars in order for her to leave the property. Herbert then got the British Vice, Counsel Agassiz, involved. Once they started researching the case, they discovered that Hazard was connected to the deaths of several other wealthy individuals. Many had signed large portions of their estates over to her before their deaths. One former state legislature, Louis E Radar, even owned the property where her sanatorium was located. Radar died in May 1911 after being moved from a hotel near Pike Place Market to an undisclosed location when authorities tried to question him how he died, I don't know. Another British patient, John Ivan Flux, had come to America to buy a ranch, but he died with just $70 to his name but he died with just $70 to his name.
Speaker 1:A New Zealand man named Eugene Wakeline was also reported to have shot himself while fasting under Hazard's care. Hazard had gotten herself appointed to, had got herself appointed administer of his estate, draining it of all his funds. In all, at least a dozen people are said to have starved to death under her care, although some claim the total could be significantly higher. Wikipedia had the number around 15 starvation deaths, plus one who would have died of starvation anyway because of the type of cancer she had, and also wake line, the dew mentioned above, who may have killed himself or may have been murdered by hazard.
Speaker 2:They don't really know so I looked up theosophy and it is a religion or philosophical system that includes the following beliefs universal brotherhood, reincarnation, monism, emanationism, which is the belief that the universe is an outward reflection of the absolute, universal tolerance, universal identity and spiritual liberation, and it has been criticized for being a form of pantheism and for denying personal immortality. So there we go. It's like a weird religion or cult. Interesting, it's got this weird symbol. It's like all these religious symbols and it says there is no religion higher than truth, including a swastika, although we do know that, like before, the swastika was used by hitler, it was like a hindu symbol of peace, so I'm assuming that that's the use, hopefully, of it.
Speaker 1:There's also like an om there's like well, the nazis didn't exist at that point in time, so you can kind of see for it. There's also like an ohm. There's like well, the nazis didn't exist at that point in time so you can kind of see for yourself.
Speaker 2:There's like an aura, boris, there's like, yeah, everything, yeah an onk.
Speaker 1:So on august 15th 1911, local authorities arrested hazard on charges of first-degree murder for starving Claire Williamson to death. The following January, hazard's trial opened at the county courthouse. Spectators crowded the building to hear servants and nurses testify about how the sisters had cried out in pain during their treatments, suffered through enemas that lasted for hours and endured baths that scalded at the touch. Then there was what the prosecution called financial starvation, forged checks, letters and other fraud that had emptied the Williamson estate. To make matters darker, there were rumors, though never proven, that Hazard was in league with the local mortuary and had switched Claire's body with a healthier one, so no one could see just how skeletal she was when she died, which might explain why she didn't look anything like what the nurse thought she should look like. Hazard herself refused to take any responsibility for Claire's death or the deaths of any of her other patients. She believed, as she wrote, in Fasting for the Cure of Disease. That quote death in the fast never results from deprivation of food, but is the inevitable consequence of vitality zapped to the last degree by organic imperfection. End quote. So basically, if you died during a fast, you actually had something else that killed you. You didn't die from fasting. You died from some unknown something or other. In Hazard's mind, the trial was an attack on her position as a successful woman and a battle between conventional medicine and more natural methods. Other names in the natural health world agreed with her and several even offered their support during the trial, including Henry S Tanner. He was a doctor who fasted publicly for 40 days in New York City in 1880. He offered to testify in order, to quote hold up the conventional medical fraternity to the derision of the world. End. Quote Hazard's fasting practice was extreme, but fasting in some form has been practiced for a very long time.
Speaker 1:As she noted in her book, fasting for health and spiritual development is an ancient idea practiced both by yogis and Jesus. The ancient Greeks thought demons could enter the mouth during eating, which helped encourage the idea of fasting for purification. Pythagoras, moses and John the Baptist all recognized the spiritual power of the fast, while Cotton Mather thought prayer and fasting would solve the Salem witchcraft epidemic. Yeah, I know, and it's still going on today.
Speaker 1:The practice experienced a revival in the late 19th century when a doctor named Edward Dewey I think that's the person we talked about before wrote a book called the True Science of Living, in which he said that quote every disease that afflicts mankind develops from more or less habitual eating. In excess of the supply of gastric juices end quote. In excess of the supply of gastric juices end quote. He also advocated what he called the no breakfast plan.
Speaker 1:Dewey's patient, and later publisher Charles Haskell, declared himself quote miraculously cured end quote after a fast, and his own book, perfect Health how to Get it and how to Keep it, helps promote the idea of starving yourself for your own good. It and how to keep it helps promote the idea of starving yourself for your own good. Even Upton Sinclair, author of the Jungle, got into the act with his nonfiction book, the Fasting Cure, published in 1911. Now, to be fair, while at the time there had been efforts to make food safer, food even in the late 19th century and even into the 20th century went largely unregulated and it actually could be very dangerous to eat. Lots of people died.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was going to say that's why I'm to Sinclair and I want to eat.
Speaker 1:For example, formaldehyde solutions were used as preservatives in milk and meat and at some point and I don't remember when it stopped or if we know when it stopped, but they used to put pureed calf brains in milk to give it its frothy bit. You probably weren't drinking coffee, you were drinking sawdust. Like it was bad. If you really want to be disgusted, I suggest reading the Poison Squad by Deborah Bloom, which is about the first real efforts in food safety.
Speaker 2:My microphone is sitting on it right now.
Speaker 1:Your microphone is sitting on it right now and the idea of fasting your way into health again is still around. Um, there's still a lot of diet fads like juice cleanses, extreme calorie deprivation diets, intermittent fasting, intermittent fasting and I didn't know this existed. But the breatharians do you know who they are Breatharians. Breatharians they try to live on light and air alone. I don't know how that works. I think they would die after a few days.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sounds like a very short-lived time.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:One way or the other, yeah.
Speaker 1:Anyway, the jury in Hazard's trial was unmoved by her claims of politically motivated persecution. After a short period of deliberation they returned a verdict of manslaughter. Hazard was sentenced to two to 20 years in prison and her license was revoked. Do you want to be mad? Sure? She was released on parole in 1915 after serving two years. Governor Ernest Lister then gave her a full pardon.
Speaker 1:The next year, hazard and her husband moved to New Zealand where she practiced as a dietician and osteopath. Right In 1917, a and I apologize because I know I'm going to mispronounce this, I even looked it up, but I still have difficulty A Wanganui newspaper reported that Hazard held a practicing certificate from the Washington State Medical Board Because she used the title doctor. She was actually charged in Auckland under the Medical Practitioners Act for practicing medicine, will not register to do so and she was found guilty. Guilty and fined five pounds plus costs, which is approximately $434 today, and I don't know if the $434, I think that's just the five pounds. So I think she actually paid more because of costs. Yeah, three years later she returned tohington and opened a new sanitarium, known publicly as a school of health, since her medical license had been revoked, and continued to supervise fast until the place burned in 1935 and was never rebuilt built.
Speaker 1:Hazard died of starvation in 1938 while attempting her own fasting cure. So she believed what she was selling. Yeah, um, I've got more. So there are some excerpts from the journal of earl edward erdman, who was one of hazard's victims. He died starvation, so it's a little bit long, but bear with me. February 1, saw Dr Hazard and began treatment. This date no breakfast Mashed soup, dinner mashed soup, supper, soup. Not suit. February 5th through 7th one orange breakfast Mashed soup, dinner mashed soup, mashed soup, supper.
Speaker 2:Mash what is. Do you have a recipe by chance, Like what is mashed soup?
Speaker 1:No, I think it's just the, the like asparagus or whatever, like mashed, I don't. I don't know that it had anything in it. I think it was strained okay, but I don't know. February 8 one orange breakfast, mashed soup, dinner mashed soup supper. February 9th through 11th one orange breakfast, strained soup, dinner strained soup supper. So I guess for some of them they did get to have little pieces of whatever oh lucky them. Yeah, february 12th one orange breakfast, one orange dinner, one orange supper god, that would have been a horrible day.
Speaker 2:So three oranges and one day yeah, that's it. We're probably talking about, like probably not big ass navel oranges no although even a big ass navel orange doesn't have that many calories no I'm gonna just hang on, okay, I'll find out how many calories is in an orange all right.
Speaker 1:February 13th two orange breakfast, no dinner, no, no supper. February 14th one cup of strained tomato broth at 6 pm. February 15th one cup hot strained tomato soup. Night and morning. February 16th one cup hot strained soup. Am and pm. Slept better last night, head quite dizzy, eyes yellow, streaked and red. February 17th ate three oranges today. February 19th called on Dr Dawson today at his home.
Speaker 2:Slept well Saturday night 45 calories oh my God so three oranges is less than 150 calories.
Speaker 1:My goodness For a grown man. That's ridiculous. For anybody I know for anybody, but especially for a grown man. February 20, ate strained juice of two small oranges at 10 am, dizzy all day. Ate strained juice of two small oranges at 5 pm. So he didn't even get the orange, he just got the juice from the orange. Jesus, february 21,. Ate one at 5 pm. So he didn't even get the orange, he just got the juice from the orange.
Speaker 2:jesus february 21, age one I don't even understand, because the the fiber and the pectin and stuff that's like the part that's good and like and like it helps you metabolize it in a healthier way. That's why fruit is so much healthier than fruit juice.
Speaker 1:Well it's, I don't know. I guess she either didn't care or whatever. February where was I? 21st Ate one cup settled and strained tomato broth? Backache today, just below ribs. February 22nd Ate juice of two small oranges at 10 am. Backache today, in right side, just below ribs. February 22nd ate juice of two small oranges at 10 am. Back ate today, in right side, just below ribs. February 23rd slept but little last night. Ate two small oranges at 9 am. Went after milk and felt very bad. Don't let me feel bad. Sorry, ate two small oranges at 6 pm. No wonder you feel bad. Sorry, ate two small oranges at 6 pm.
Speaker 2:Like of course you feel bad, You're starving yourself.
Speaker 1:Slept better Wednesday night. Kind of frontal headache. In am. Ate two small oranges. 10 am. Ate one and a half cups hot tomato soup. At 6 pm Heart hit up to 95 minute and sweat considerable. February 25th slept pretty well Thursday night ate one and a half cups tomato broth. 11 am. Ate one and a half cups tomato broth. 6 pm. Pain right below ribs. February 26th. Did not sleep so very well Friday night 26,. Did not sleep so very well Friday night. Pain in right side just below ribs and back pain quit in night. Ate one and a half cups tomato broth at 10.45 am. Ate two and a half pumps small oranges at 4.30 pm. Felt better afternoon than for the last week. So that was the regimen, along with the enemas and the massages, and it probably lasted that way until his death, which happened mid-March.
Speaker 2:So the following month Do they say why did she choose the foods that she chose, like asparagus, oranges, tomatoes, Like? Why those foods?
Speaker 1:I'm sure she says it in her book, but I didn't read her book. I didn't have time. I was reading Helter Skelter right, fair enough I don't know, maybe they were easily accessible to her at the time. I thought that oranges were kind of expensive and hard to come by I don't know, maybe they were, and so that's why she probably went after people who had money very true she's like you're eating oranges, yeah. Yeah, I don't know, people followed it, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Do we have anything to say about it other than that's really fucked up?
Speaker 2:It's really fucked up, yeah, I mean obviously than that's really fucked up. It's really fucked up. Yeah, I, I mean obviously that's really extreme. But yeah, we're talking the other day about how, like extreme diets are going on yeah, maybe not quite that extreme, but like yeah, people are still getting into these extreme diets. Like we're talking about that unfortunate influencer on that raw fruit diet.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Who died in Malaysia? Yeah, and there's. Was I talking to you or was I? Was I talking to you about the carnivore diet? Yes, yeah to you. Or was I? Was I talking to you about the carnivore diet? Yes, yeah. People who just eat like raw meat and eggs and like sardines and, yeah, and butter and and dairy too, yeah, but like no, no vegetable.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no fruit, I think, even like they're like just a little bit of dairy or whatever, but like go ham on, like all the sardines you want or some shit like that, and it's like where are you getting your vitamin C from? Right? And also like it's like raw meat, so like you are not actually a carnivore. Right, and like, humans have been cooking our food like since, like before our species, Since like what? Like Homo habilis, right, Mm-hmm, and so we're very accustomed to, although certain cultures, right, like Inuits or whatever, and like cultures who have more access to like really fresh foods, right, like tend to have more fresh and raw foods in the diet, and and cultures who, like maybe are more land-bound and stuff like we tend to like cook the fuck out of our foods because, of course, right, yeah, like you know, like is like a pretty new thing, yeah it is.
Speaker 1:It's only a little over a century. Yeah, yeah, or about a century.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. And just I don't know like that's a lot of faith in, like you know USDA yeah, a lot of a lot of faith in like you know usda yeah, um, but like it's a pretty sure bet, like, unless you have like whatever like food allergies or restrictions, or like arfid, or like you know, like a reason why you need to restrict, like the types of food that you eat. Like, yeah, we probably are better off eating like a diverse selection of foods than eating just like only raw meat or only like tropical fruit. Like, yeah, we should like, because, even like, while you were saying like oh, orange, orange, orange, tomato juice, I'm like is she like obsessed with vitamin c?
Speaker 1:like what I don't. I don't think they really had that kind of thought back.
Speaker 2:That's true, but like that's what I was thinking of, like that's a lot of like citric acid.
Speaker 1:Yeah okay, I think we've talked about our food ills enough. Are we gonna move on to helter skelter? Uh, yes. So besides the fact that it was insanely long and insanely detailed, yep how was it?
Speaker 2:I know you had issues yeah, yeah, I was just just with all the I don't know combined world stress and just hearing about just this shitty dude and like the shitty, just terrible people in the case, mm-hmm, and you know, I don't know, it just had me down a little bit, yeah, and it also pissed me off that I don't know like. I mean, it's a dark, it's a grim thing, like even this guy, though like Bugliosi Is that how you even say his name Bugliosi? Bugliosi, something like that. Yeah, close enough, he's like the district attorney or whatever. He like prosecuted Manson.
Speaker 2:And he was a deputy district attorney yeah, deputy, I think so, deputy district attorney. He sure may sound like he was the most important dude district attorney, is? He? Sure may sound like he's the most important dude, um, but even he, like he made it seem like I don't know, in some ways like he's glorifying him throughout the book and especially in comparison with, like, his followers. I thought in some way like that, that that little bit where he's like did he stop my watch? I'm like come on really and and like just talking about how, oh, everybody thought he was so smart or whatever, and he's I don't know the way he's like always talking to him. He's like I don't know.
Speaker 1:See, I didn't get that Because for me what I saw was one, and maybe it's a difference between like reading the page and audio reading, because what I got was one. Sometimes he was just being sarcastic and funny or trying to be. It didn't always come off well, but also like the buddy-buddy thing, I think, based on other lawyers, I know that it was a ploy to make him feel comfortable.
Speaker 2:Sure, yeah, I know that he's trying to get stuff out of him.
Speaker 2:But he talks about him more I don't know how do I put it like as an equal, like or on even footing, than he talks about like, say, like the girls in the case, like he really talks down about them a lot, and that's true, like there's a very just patriarchal veneer.
Speaker 2:Like twice in the book he calls like two, uh, two different occasions he calls manson's female followers, refers to them as you, little bitch, I thought that was manson calling him. No, well, yeah, manson sure did plenty of times, but no, bugliosi does. Twice in one case where uh, one of, uh, one of manson's female followers and two of his male followers were stalking bugliosi, sorry, and and he's like trying to like put them off, like like I'm not a person to mess with and but he calls like the female, you little bitch. Like back off, you, little bitch, yeah. And then he tells the dudes he's like don't mess with me or I'll clock you. Yeah, but like I'm like there's a a different energy, right, the way he's talking to her and the way he's talking to them. And then another case where Susan Atkins knocks his papers off the desk and he's like you little bitch, and which obviously, like she was being a bitch but like you're a fucking district attorney, like.
Speaker 2:Act like a professional. Like, don't call the defendant or the. You're a fucking district attorney, act like a professional. Don't call the defendant or the. What's the? She was a defendant, yeah, defendant. Don't call her a little bitch.
Speaker 1:I wonder. Well see, I didn't I guess I didn't get to that part, but I wonder if maybe he was Because Manson treated them that way? Yeah, and I'm wondering if that's. If that's a similar ploy to being buddy-buddy with Manson. You know, I mean, I'm not trying to.
Speaker 2:No, because later I mean at least with the in the case with susan atkins he admitted that he made a mistake so I don't think it was a ploy.
Speaker 2:I think it was just, yeah, a gut reaction. Yeah, but it just showed that the whole trial has a veneer of patriarchy like over it, where, like yeah, of course Manson is a sexist piece of shit that's obviously known from Bugliosi to even like the defense attorneys are all there and one part. There the defense attorneys are trying to argue that they couldn't possibly be guilty because women are not capable of violence.
Speaker 1:That was a thought for a long time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, which is like, yeah, it's bullshit that that's using they're trying to use it for their own benefit, right case. But like, yeah, you know just so many aspects of it. Yeah, it's very sexist. And and the other thing that that just irk me about it is how, you know, we talk about how, in fact, a big part of his case was about how Manson had this mind control over his, over the members of his family, particularly over the women, how he had brainwash him, and they're like like, well, how do you get to those? Like, how does he have that control?
Speaker 2:And he kind of gloss over it and it's through. He talked about it, but he just gloss over how it's through a you know, like abuse, like like a mental and emotional manipulation and like sexual coercion tactics and like in the one case where, even like, they get up on the one of the one of the witnesses, that one guy gets up on the stand, the the guy who was a ranch hand at the um, what's it called? Spawn ranch, yeah, to testify against him. And they're like, well, what kind of coercion tactics?
Speaker 2:and he starts to describe in detail how manson would sexually coerce, like the women, yeah, and they're like whoa, you can't talk about that, it's inappropriate. I'm like.
Speaker 1:I'm like this is a murder trial well, you know, at the time, though I I'm sure it was inappropriate. I mean, they couldn't even I remember reading um, where is it? Is it? It's over here the trial of lizzie borden yeah and the defense attorney was right.
Speaker 1:There's that big thing about blood being on the dress, right, and he wanted to argue that it was menstrual blood, right, but he couldn't. He had a hard time getting that in because that was considered inappropriate at the time. You know so, I think I know so, I think I know it's frustrating, but it's also 1969, 1970 it's just everything regarding like women yeah, it was awful yeah yeah yeah, it's not.
Speaker 1:It's better than some, but it's not. Um. It actually leads me to a tiny issue I have that correlates that it's not really an issue. I don't mind that they did it. But if you notice in there, if you go to the crime scenes, um, specifically those of sharon tate, it'll be closer to the what you know, I don't know what page, but here I'll find it for you also I thought that bugliosi was a little bit big-headed on himself oh yeah, he did put manson away I mean, I mean, sure, but he's like, he's like, he's like talking shit about just about everybody else like involved in the case, except for himself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah um, okay, let me get this okay, and then I talk about it.
Speaker 1:So you see how that it's just whited out, the bodies at the bottom, yep, okay, so I'm fine with that right To not show to protect the victims. Yeah, essentially, right, you can't really tell if you. If you look at the actual, the actual um photographs of sharon, tate and um, I think that's abigail folger, right, it's horrifying those. Those pictures don't convey how awful it is. Yeah, and, like you, remember how he describes how she was wearing a white nightgown but it looked red. Yes, like, if you look at the picture, he's not exaggerating, you know. Yeah, but anyway, I understand the doing of that right To protect the victims and families. Point to, uh, specifically, when you said he kind of glossed over the fact that, uh, he raped the 13 year old, right, he used the term, uh, what was the term sodomize?
Speaker 2:well, no, it was the other term, he in other and at other points in the in the text he uses the term make love to refer to instances which are definitely rape or implied rape.
Speaker 1:Like in one point he says Charles Mansize that I was thinking of. But what I meant was, if we're going to do that, then I think you should update the language a little bit. Where you can. You know, not in all instances, like when it's a direct quote, leave it Right. But if you're like say it's, don't say it's, it's, it's God. What is that? Where's my phone?
Speaker 2:say it's, it's, it's god, what is that? Where's my phone? No, I yeah, I thought about that too, I although I don't have this copy with the updated things what but I did think, like in all these years, like they didn't update some of this terminology, yeah, oh, uh, you said.
Speaker 1:And when the author described him initiating, in quote marks a 13 year old girl yes, is it um, initiate. Yeah, that's what you emphasized, so that's what I assumed the word you were talking about yeah, yes, so yes, they.
Speaker 2:He did use the word initiate yes, and that bothered me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it bothers me too, but that's what, like, my connect was like if you're, if you're gonna do some updating, do all the updating you know.
Speaker 2:Like let's use the correct words if you're gonna do that also the fact that he's describing exactly what was done to, said, 13 year old, although he doesn't say the name of the the member, like it's dehumanizing to that person.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that pissed, that whole thing just pissed me off yeah, so I mean that it's not even an issue really for me, but it, you know, I kind of feel like if you're going to do some of it, do all of it right, although maybe that has always been in the book because he didn't want the family to see the the photographs, but yeah, so, and we've ripped it apart. How about stuff that we liked about it?
Speaker 2:I like that talk about what a racist, sexist piece of shit Manson is. I think that I think in and I read an article or a couple of articles actually two different articles about how in media and stuff like it, often, like media portrayals of Charles Manson often gloss over the fact that he's just a glammed up white supremacist and, like this book makes it pretty clear that that is what he is. Um, yeah, I liked. I like that it doesn't dance around in fact that that's his.
Speaker 2:That's his like main. That's his main. Um, uh, what's the word like argument?
Speaker 1:uh, against for manson's motive yeah, media portrayals really gloss over that and yeah, they usually just say he wanted to start a race war. It doesn't talk about like how fucked up he really was.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, it's racist exactly yeah, and it also, although the book does this, some too like they also like make it seem like manson's this hippie with this like free love commune, and he's not like, no, he only he didn't like hippies, which is brought up in the book.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he was really offended to be called a hippie.
Speaker 2:People only thought he was a hippie because, like he, he had long hair. Yeah, he had long hair and he dressed in buckskin or whatever but like that's how.
Speaker 1:That's how they saw anybody with long hair yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:That's why I was gonna say anybody who? Was like outside of the norms of society, but like, very much like today. We would just consider him a neo-nazi. Yeah, you know, like, like, nothing special like just another, you know, and that's and all that's part of what pissed me off too is like, like this dude that all these people like glamorize and they're like he. Why? Why was he so dynamic, or whatever. I'm like he's just a sexist racist.
Speaker 1:Another piece of shit, dude well, yeah, we know that now. Yeah, he, there had to be something that he had that got all of these people and not just young girls and young boys, but like he had all kinds of people fooled, I mean they kind of talk about it.
Speaker 2:He was obviously like a master of manipulation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:They talk about like how he had all these masks, like he knew how to play each different person.
Speaker 1:Yeah mass, like he knew how to play each different person, yeah, and I think what he could find their vulnerabilities and exploit them to the maximum, and I think that is fascinating for people, because I don't know of anybody before him that did that and there aren't that many after him. Yeah, that did that, that had that kind of control, not and again, not just over his followers, but of completely random people, like there were so few people who saw through his bullshit. Yeah, you know, although I'm not saying he should be glamorized, I'm just saying I can see now how people have that interest in him. Yeah, you, you know, I was never interested.
Speaker 1:I didn't give a shit about Manson and like that wasn't my my bag right, like I felt bad for the victims and it was a horrible thing, but it was not, it was not my cult of choice. Yeah, shall we say, that sounds terrible too. It's just not one that fascinated me, I guess. But after reading this book, that fascinated me, I guess. But after reading this book, I can see how there's a fascination with him and I can and it does kind of I do have a fascination of how, like, how manipulative he could be.
Speaker 2:You know, everybody.
Speaker 1:Again, it's not just followers, it's everybody, kind of like Jim Jones. Jim Jones was able to do that everybody.
Speaker 2:Again, it's not just followers, it's everybody Kind of like Jim Jones. Jim Jones was able to do that too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, although the author's like. No, he's not like Jim Jones. Did he say that? Yeah, like at the end.
Speaker 2:But I was like, yeah, he kind of is.
Speaker 1:When was it? Was the afterword many years later, because Jonestown wasn't until this.
Speaker 2:It goes into like the 80s or whatever oh, okay, then that would happen, yeah and um, anyway, he, he wants to separate him from jim jones, because jim jones like killed himself and his followers, but he didn't. He wants to say that manson is unique because he ordered his followers to kill and I'm like, I'm like lots of people have ordered people to kill but most of them are, like, sanctioned. Yeah, like his hero, mance's hero, hitler.
Speaker 1:I think he probably meant cult-wise. Yeah, you know, I mean, that's happened many times after, but I don't know that.
Speaker 2:there were many before. Maybe not as many in the US, but like yeah, not as many in the US yeah.
Speaker 1:But like yeah, I mean there are in the US too, but again, like, I'm sure it happened at some point. But I think Manson I don't want to say Manson is unique, he's not unique, he's a piece of shit. But I can see how people are fascinated by him and how people think he's unique yeah.
Speaker 1:Do you think it also got so much attention? Because I think I think his victims were famous people, partly that, but I also think that it was because, honestly, I think if sharon tate hadn't died, it wouldn't have been a thing, yeah, but I think it's a culmination of things. I think it's fame and wealth, um, I think it's because manson, he even says in there, like women know he's on trial for murder, and he gives them a little wink and a smile and they're like, really, they're not offended by it, they're, you know, they're fine with it. So I think it's his allure. I think it's because of the spectacle that the girl that the whole thing caused, yeah, that the girl, uh, that the whole thing caused, yeah, I think it's, um again, how he was able to play so many people. And I think, uh, because even though he wasn't a hippie or any of that stuff, he had that right and that was still a big, um, divisive thing at that point in time. And I think it's the girls too, the young girls, the fact that these young girls, predominantly young girls right, there was one or two guys there, but it's predominantly them could viciously murder. They didn't just murder like, they didn't just shoot somebody or stab somebody a couple times like they. Yeah, they went hog wild right, they were insane right, and they didn't care that the lady was like eight months pregnant, you know. So I think it's those culmination combination of, yeah, all of those things.
Speaker 1:He had a, he had a a way about him. Um, and I could see I always think there was was this interview that was done with a female journalist. I didn't watch the whole thing because it just it angered me, but he would do that thing that, for whatever reason, works on a lot of people, where it's a backhanded compliment yeah, or it's a compliment followed by something negative, like he said you'd be really pretty, you're very pretty, but you'd be even prettier if you lost a few pounds. You know it's that kind of thing, and if you're even remotely insecure about your weight as a woman, you know that can fuck with you.
Speaker 1:And all you need is to do that a little bit and to isolate and, you know, add in some of the drugs that they were doing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know you're gonna have yeah this was another thing they didn't really talk about too, but I wonder what their relationship or accessibility was to food, because I know a lot of cult leaders will like starve their members or limit their access to food to practice like emotional control over them. And he talks about a lot how he was so easily able to bribe them with like candy and stuff, and he portrays that as like, oh, they're childlike, they just want candy and I'm like maybe they're hungry. Really bugged me that I thought was also glossed over is how, like you know, like these girls like had to whatever, like have sex with any male member of the family, whatever, yeah, at or other women or other women and men had to sleep with other men sometimes at Manson's command, yeah, whatever.
Speaker 2:But like my point is that they were popping out babies and then he would take their babies away. That's another major form of control yeah, absolutely. And the one who testified linda. Uh, what is her?
Speaker 1:last name casabian casperian no it's, it's k-a-s-a-b-I-A-N, I think, but anyway, she left her baby, yeah.
Speaker 2:And then they were like how could you leave your baby? Yeah, like she had to leave her baby to get away from there. But yeah, that was another way.
Speaker 1:It happens a lot, even now. You leave your family, you leave your kids.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was another way to get to him that he controlled them. Yeah, uh is through their children.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but we were supposed to talk about the things we enjoyed. We're going back to the. We're going back to the criticisms which is fine but you're stuck in a grad school there, Rachel.
Speaker 2:I mean, it was very gripping until like basically the trial, the trial. And like once they read out the guilty verdict, I was like all right done. And then they were like and then we're going to do the sentencing trial? And I was like no yeah. And then he just kept going, kept going, kept going. I was like why isn't this over yet?
Speaker 1:Well, at least you stuck it through. I left I don't know a little over 100 pages. I think. I was like I'm done with the trial, I don't need to hear more.
Speaker 2:They killed that defense attorney. I know they did that is insane.
Speaker 1:It is. They were, yeah. Oh, I saw a documentary or something. Squeaky Frome was still at that point in time and she was old.
Speaker 2:She tried to assassinate Gerald Ford right.
Speaker 1:Probably. I think so, um, but my point is she was still a devoted manson fan when that documentary came out. And that documentary came out not too many years ago, like in the 2000s the three?
Speaker 2:uh, patricia, linda and um, stacy, is it st? I don't know the three who got convicted. Huh, sadie, sadie. No, sadie was her. Sadie was Susan. Right, susan, that's her real name. Sadie Glutz, susan Atkins Too many fucking names three uh, they all denounced him.
Speaker 1:All the ones who went to prison for him, like didn't denounce yeah, but yeah, yeah, no, I just I just found it when this was still his following. I I just found it interesting that even in the 2000s she was still buying his shit tried to break him out of prison was there anything else you liked I? I don't know?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was really like I said, it was pretty gripping. I don't know what else to say about it. It was really interesting, but yeah, it just went on too long yeah.
Speaker 1:I both loved and disliked how deep it went. Yeah, how deep it went. Yeah, you know, I liked it because, again, I didn't really know that much about it. Yeah, I thought I knew everything, right. Manson, young ladies, helter, skelter sharon tate, like you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, it did um, but it was so much more than that, uh, and it went even, even beyond that, like even more killings that they didn't get tried for. And yeah, it was just the insanity of it. Like I, I knew that there was insanity in terms of the media, of the trial and stuff, right, the x and whatever, but like even before then, the insanity of it all you know the other things.
Speaker 1:Like I, I didn't know. The depth of his depth sounds like a good thing, the um, his full belief system and how he made it make sense. I didn't realize the beatles connection at all yeah, I knew, I knew he had I knew he had.
Speaker 1:I knew the brian wilson and I know um, mama cass from mamas and the papas was a big fan of of manson, but I didn't. I didn't know that he like made a lot of his belief system out of the Beatles music, particularly the White Album, it just didn't. And how he connected it to the Bible, I didn't know the Bible was any part of it. You know, yeah, the Book of Revelation and Chapter 9, which I read and is terrifying. It's a great horror. The Book of Revelations is a great horror story. I forgot what I was saying. Oh, oh, all the connections I so, yeah, the, the detail I loved there got to a point where it stopped being uh fun and got a little tedious.
Speaker 2:the thing that that that that made me like was like finding out that, like he, he had gone to Sharon Tate's house, yeah, before, yeah, and like seen her, yeah, that was insane.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the idea that maybe they weren't the targets at first.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and just the descriptions of it, like it's kind of one thing to hear, like, oh, they were, they were stabbed to death. But when linda kasabian um goes into detail, like how abigail was running and kasabian yeah, uh, and you know just her description and also the description susan atkins said, you know that made it a lot more real. You know it was horrible and I guess there are. You know whether or not that's a good thing to publish, you know, just for the victims and victims' families, I don't know. But at the same time it makes it so much more impactful for people who are not part of it, who would otherwise just like, like you know, wave it off or whatever. Like how is that that terrible? So they were stabbed. A lot of people get stabbed, but right, when, when you hear that she was the full description, yeah, you know it's, it's a lot.
Speaker 1:I also learned new things. They use the term rap a lot. I'd never heard that outside of the context of the music. I didn't realize it meant conversation. I didn't realize it was slang of the 60s.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, and also pigs, right, because we think of pigs as police officers right, yeah, when they first put pigs, I was yeah, that was like they're not cops right, yeah, but it turns out it comes from the song Piggies from the White Album, which is it's a not very nice song about the wealthy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, so I learned new things. I always like to learn new things, so, yeah, that was interesting. I don't know, I don't have anything really thoughtful, or interesting to say. Do you know? I wonder what the Beatles thought or said about like when finding, if they found out that All of the Beatles gave permission to use lyrics except for George Harrison. Yeah, so any song that George Harrison wrote the lyrics couldn't be out, so he couldn't print the words from Piggies, because George Harrison wrote that one.
Speaker 1:So they clearly knew, yeah, yeah, I'm sure they weren't thrilled. I don't think any of the celebrities who met him, or anybody who ever met him, was like, yeah, I knew him, yeah, you know. They were very reluctant.
Speaker 2:Well, sure, yeah, it's just like you know that he thinks that. I mean, I know a lot of people think, thought that there were like hidden messages.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like the Beatles songs.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was a common, but that's taking it to like a whole other level. Yeah, that was a common, taking it to like a whole that is level.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've never heard the white album. Have you heard it? I don't know if I've heard it. I mean I've heard lots and lots of beatles on yeah, I don't know if I've listened to like a whole album, yeah exactly yeah wow, that should be our homework.
Speaker 1:We should listen yeah, I don't have anything real insightful to say about the book. Uh, I think you said most of it. Sorry, I talked too much, that's okay, but I mean, I'm glad I read it, or the vast majority of it. I I will be honest and say that I will not be reading the last hundred or so pages, but I'm glad. I'm glad that that we picked that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, despite its flaws yeah, I learned a lot of stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was horrified and intrigued, and then I was bored horrified yeah, I was horrified, intrigued and, at some points, very bored yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, to the point where we even you, even looked up a nice segue to our next thing. It's your turn to pick the book. So you Googled I know you Googled the true crime thing, but you were looking at books that didn't have that Like. This happened. Then this happened then this happened.
Speaker 2:We were looking for next true crime crime book. That's a little bit. A little bit more soft, yeah. So I picked one that is about dinosaur bone theft, called the dinosaur artist obsession, betrayal and the quest for earth's ultimate Trophy, by Paige Williams. All right, yeah, I'm a kid and I like dinosaurs. Adults can like dinosaurs, and who doesn't love a good heist?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that'll fulfill one of our prompts. Nice For our 52 books challenge. We've got dinosaurs, we've got heists. I don't know the dinosaur one works, but the heist one you gotta read a book about a heist.
Speaker 2:Yeah, is there a dinosaur prompt? I don't know.
Speaker 1:I don't know. There's probably not, probably not Okay, so repeat the book again.
Speaker 2:It's called. Sorry, let me open my thing again. The Dinosaur Artist, Obsession Betrayal and the Quest for Earth's Ultimate Trophy by Paige Williams.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Before we go, have we been reading or watching anything aside from this? I mean, like, what did we do last week before? Our lives revolved around Helter Skelter.
Speaker 2:Right. So I did read a little bit of Incidents Around the house by josh mallerman and I was enjoying that, yeah, until I realized I better stop reading this and get back to helter skelter I'm not gonna finish in time. Um, I haven't watched too much just because at the end of the day, I've just been tired yeah and passing out so yeah, it's.
Speaker 1:It's been hard for you.
Speaker 2:You've got a kiddo that had yes surgery yeah, yeah, one of my kids had their tonsils and kids are home from break.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so yeah and yeah, she's, or well, I guess she's not home from break, but she's home because she's home from surgery yeah, yeah, and not been feeling too hot, so being her, her spicy, spicy, self extra spicy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, so well I no life, only kids for once, I have more things than you.
Speaker 1:I don't know if I mentioned on here I know I've told you a couple of times but I did a rewatch of a k drama called marry my husband. Yes, you did um mention. I mentioned it to you. Yeah, in case you don't know, I like it. It's about a, a woman who has cancer and she's forced to go home because she doesn't have the money to pay for her treatment. And when she goes home, she finds her best friend and husband in bed plotting her death. Ultimately, they kill her I'm not giving anything away, that's in the synopsis, uh, and she goes back in time, basically, and has to, uh, redistribute her fate yeah and um.
Speaker 1:So it's about how she goes from being a a timid person to a strong, independent woman, and there may or may not be some romance involved. There's definitely a cat involved, a cute little ginger. I redistribute my faith to be a fate to be rich right, and so I I re-watched that one and I read what did I read? Let me find my Goodreads. Did I even put it on Goodreads? Can I mark Helter Skelter as read, even though I have 100 pages?
Speaker 2:to go. Hell yeah, close enough. Awesome, I think that counts, have I?
Speaker 1:not updated it. Oh no, I didn't update it. So it's basically I am not being very smart in my reading. For some reason I decided that I wanted to read one of Jane Anne Krentz's books a year, uh, to finish up her trilogy. So I read that one. But then I was like, well, I'm kind of in the mood for some jane and crintz. So I went to her backlist and I'm now reading one about a nerd and a uh woman from a theater family. Okay, and it's supposed to get into some sort of um, uh, suspense thriller type stuff, although I feel like I'm almost halfway through and nothing's happened. They've had sex, that's about it, but he's an uber nerd who lacks emotion, apparently, and she's highly emotional. I hear that, but I am not. Yeah, I haven't. I wanted to be pickier about my reading this year, but I haven't been lately. I haven't started off that way.
Speaker 2:Well With Others, and it's by Deanna Raybourne and I was like, hey, we were just reading Deanna Raybourne.
Speaker 1:Is that the next one in the?
Speaker 2:Is it a?
Speaker 1:series I don't know.
Speaker 2:Let me Can I answer that. But I was like I didn't know she did murdery books too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think this is the second one in the one about the older assassins. Oh okay, what is that first one called it's right up there Killers of a Certain Age. Oh yeah, we can read that one if you want, after we finish the second one.
Speaker 2:I did finish the second, did you? Veronica Speedwalk? Yeah, I finished it.
Speaker 1:I thought it was funny I liked the.
Speaker 2:Did you read it? I've read it before. Yeah, I liked the part where they're in the grotto and she's like waving the like dildos around.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, that reminds me of the new book she co-signs a loan for I don't know sister or sister-in-law or something who wants to have like a female friendly adult store, something he wants to have like a female friendly, uh, adult store, and as a thank you, the sister-in-law gives her a box full of like bdsm type stuff, including really big dildos, yeah, and so she. You know, she didn't think anything of it, but then her um, her stepbrother came in and found it and like put the clothes on and was like meant it to be a joke? I mean, that's a gross joke, yeah, uh, but you know, so he's like waving the stuff around in front of this guy that she's trying to seduce. Basically, it was hilarious. Yeah, that was fun. I forgot that, that. I remember there was the grotto, but I forgot that that happened. When do we find out that the stoker's brother is gay? Was that the first one, or did I give it away?
Speaker 2:I mean, it's not a big plot. She he mentions that like that he was in the club or whatever and that he, you know, was part of like these, like orgies, that that they talk about that like there was like some same sex sex going on. She like talks to what's the deuce stoker? She's like. She's like do you know how gay sex works? And he's like please stop talking about guys?
Speaker 1:yeah, because I, I know, I know it's confirmed, in a wink wink kind of way, but I forget what book that's in. Okay, but I don't think you're surprised by that. No, no, um, spoiler alert, y'all. It's not a big plot point, so don't worry about it. Okay, well, I'll, I'll start reading it.
Speaker 2:You did, I am interested in reading more veronica speedwell books. But yeah, I was like, I was like I didn't know she did murder, yeah we'll try.
Speaker 1:So we'll try killers ofudge next. I haven't read that one. Are you doing the Veronica Speedwell on audio or just reading?
Speaker 2:I mostly did it on audio.
Speaker 1:Okay, Are they good? That's my main question. I was going to ask if they're good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's good. I would say it's good because I can't remember anything standing out being like obnoxious. Okay. So, I would say yes, okay.
Speaker 1:Because then I can listen to it on my way to work. Okay, because I need new stuff to listen to. All right, well, I guess we don't have anything else to say. It's a lot longer episode than I thought, although I think I'm going to cut out probably chunks of this. Okay, so we said the book twice. It's not on the top of my head right now. I will put it in the description and we will, of course, mention it again in the next several episodes.
Speaker 2:Pull it up real quick one more time, it will be the Dinosaur.
Speaker 1:Artist by Paige Williams. The Dinosaur Artist by Paige Williams. The Dinosaur Artist by Paige Williams. So that'll be episode 36.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sure, that's what we're going with. I know it's an even number, that's all I know Sounds good to me so the four episodes from now. That will. That will be our, our next book. Yeah, I will, of course, put the information in the description box. Um, have you checked emails and stuff lately? Um, no, okay. Well, if, if, by some small chance, anyone out there has emailed us or sent us anything, we will check it.
Speaker 2:I will get back to you soon.
Speaker 1:Yes, she will look at it. I'll remind her until she does and hopefully we'll get back to you soon. If it's something we can talk about on the air, we'll on the air on the episode, then we'll. We'll do that and on our own little air. If nobody, if nobody has, please do that On our own little air. If nobody has, please do so. You know, we would like to hear anything, suggestions, opinions. Please be nice. We're fragile. No, we're not. We're not really. Rachel has a pretty thick skin and I did a little journalism so I have a pretty thick skin and I did a little journalism so I had a.
Speaker 2:I have a fairly strong, but we would appreciate if you weren't mean to us.
Speaker 1:Let's let's have kindness out there, and so we'd like to hear from you Instagram, facebook, gmail email, and that's it Right. Facebook email, and that's it right. You can also do our individual ones. All of that will be in the description box, and I don't know what else we want to say. Stay safe out there. Let's work towards a better future.
Speaker 2:Sorry to trust a 5'2 white man wearing buckskin and work towards a better future. Do not trust a 5'2 white man wearing buckskin.
Speaker 1:And our thoughts and good vibes go out to those people who have lost things in the fire.
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely Very horrific.
Speaker 1:And I guess that's it. We will talk to you next time. Bye.
