Details Are Sketchy
A bimonthly true crime podcast, in which two friends share an unsolved disappearance or unsolved case, a crime they're most intrigued by, and talk all things true crime.
Details Are Sketchy
The Baker Butcher Part 1
Sorry about the late episode post (again). Life got in the way. Anyway, it's Kiki's turn again. She tells part 1 of the story of Robert Hansen (aka The Butcher Baker) and his victims. Rachel has the missing person this week (see below). As always, we also chat about what we've been reading, watching, and listening to.
Our next book is "The Dinosaur Artist: Obsession, Betrayal, and the Quest for Earth's Ultimate Trophy" by Paige Williams.
Sources:
Robert Hansen
Very Scary People Season 3 Episode 3 - "The Butcher Baker: Terror In the Wilderness, Part 1"
Missing Person
Luis Antonio Rivera
Missing Person Center
ABC 15 Arizona - "Arizonans Recently Reported Missing"
Note: Do not make contact. Call your local emergency number (like 911)
Get in touch with us:
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Facebook: Details Are Sketchy - @details.are.sketchy.2023
Instagram: Kiki - @kikileona84
Instagram: Rachel - @eeniemanimeenienailz
Email: details.are.sketchy.pod@gmail.com
I'm Kiki and I'm Rachel, and this is. Details Are Sketchy, a true crime podcast, and I'm not even going to pretend to know what episode this is. So, yeah, you sound unhappy, katie. Sorry, I will become happier.
Speaker 2:No, it's fine. You don't have to. I'm just acknowledging the feelings in the room.
Speaker 1:Yes, no, I am frustrated, very, very frustrated. Yes, I know I am frustrated, very, very frustrated. It irritates me when people you love do things that are bad for them. Yeah, I hear you that I well. No, I don't know. So I'm gonna say I think the book is two episodes from this one, so it's two episodes, it's not one episode. No, oh my god, yeah, I think. Don't, I don't know, don't take it to the bank, but I will not take it to the bank? I'm pretty sure we don't.
Speaker 2:I'm just like dancing around, like when I'm I know you said dancing around and now the phrase dancing around is in my head. Sorry, Because I started the book and I'm like 75% through and I'm like, should I finish it?
Speaker 1:Should I hold off? I know, yeah, that's because I said last time it would be like this week, but last week was the one right after we did Helter Skelter.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So, and we're confused, because this episode should have come out on Wednesday, right, and so we're. But, life has been kicking our ass. Life has been kicking our ass, so I'm sure our listeners understand.
Speaker 2:I'm sure they do.
Speaker 1:It would be better for our numbers if we actually came. Obviously, this is not our full-time job?
Speaker 2:No, no, it's not. It would be better for our listenership if we acted like it was our full-time job.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but unfortunately we don't have the energy of two or three people no, and and I already work three jobs, so a piece that is yeah, just to clarify yeah okay. So yeah, we don't know what episode this is. I'm pretty sure two episodes from now, three episodes, two episodes from now will be our book, which Rachel will tell you about at the end. Yeah, something about dinosaurs.
Speaker 2:The Dinosaur Artist.
Speaker 1:See, I'm going to do the case even though I did the last one and this one's going to be a two-parter, so unfortunately y'all are going to have to listen to my voice for three episodes in a row. Great, and then.
Speaker 2:Rachel's like yes, Better yours than mine.
Speaker 1:And then Rachel will do hers after that. Yep Okay, yep, okay, okay. So, you go ahead with your missing person.
Speaker 2:Okay, so my missing person's name is Luis Antonio Rivera and he is missing from Surprise, arizona. That's quite a name. Yeah, his nationality is American. I don't know why they bothered to put that, because I don't think it's super relevant. The case was entered on July 20, 2023. Current classification unknown missing.
Speaker 2:This record was last updated in September and his gender is male. His age when he went missing was 35. His race is Hispanic or Latino. His weight was around 230 pounds and his height was 5'7". His eyes were brown and his hair was brown. Height was 5'7", his eyes were brown and his hair was brown, and there's a note, however, that says that some sources say that his hair is black, while other sources say that his hair was brown. I'm looking at a picture of his hair and it looks like it's very dark brown. Okay, so Okay, and there's. I have a bit more information about his missing person status that I guess we'll get into later. I'll just say so he was last seen on June 4th 2023. So I will give you the details of that situation after our case.
Speaker 1:So this is a two-parter on a serial killer. Serial catcher, that's what I was going to say. Serial killer the butcher baker.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:The vast majority of this I got from the Very Scary People episodes. I got from the Very Scary People episodes. There is another one that I was watching but it kept stopping every five minutes so I got annoyed and stopped watching it. So on September, in September 1982, along the Knick River, which is about 25 miles northeast of Anchorage, alaska, you know what this whole thing reminded me of. So I lived in Alaska. Yeah, in the 90s I remember nothing of this, like all of these things, I was like I didn't even know there was a river outside of Anchorage, alaska, right, and I lived right outside Anchorage. I mean, it's wild, it wouldn't surprise me because it's wild out there, like even in town, like we lived in eagle river, which is a town. It's a town with shops and everything and lots of people. It's more like a suburb and you know, I mean moose would be walking around, like you'd wake up in the morning and a moose would be sticking its nose against your window, right, you know, and there's like bald eagles just flying around, yeah, so I don't know why it surprises me that there is a river outside Anchorage, alaska, but it did Okay anyway.
Speaker 1:So Officer John Daly of the Anchorage Police Department had just gotten a small boat and he thought it would be a good idea to go down the Kinnick River to do a quick hunting trip with his friend. And when they went the wind was getting really bad on the river, so they decided to hop off at a nice place if they found one, and they did. They saw a group of trees and felt they could get out there and camp there for the night. So they had gone through the trees and were looking for a place to set up, and they saw what Officer Daly described as a moon boot, which obviously didn't belong there. When they looked closer, they saw a patch of denim which was torn enough that they could see that it the denim was covering a kneecap.
Speaker 1:They knew, of course, that they had a body and he had a sense that it was a homicide. So he said something like we knew it couldn't have just been a hiker, but they didn't explain why they thought it couldn't have just been a hiker, right? So, uh, anyway, he believed that it was a homicide. So he and his friend left the area to alert the troopers the next day. They worked their way around the body, the troopers and everyone. When they got to the head. They saw there was an ace bandage wrapped around it. You should stick a pin in that she had been shot in the chest. I don't know how they knew that, because it was skeletal. Remains, right, is it?
Speaker 2:maybe like.
Speaker 1:But I don't know, maybe. Maybe they said they found a .223 shell in the dirt, so maybe it was like through her chest or something I'm not really sure that's wild to think about. Yeah, or it also could have been like they discovered that later, that she got shot in the chest yeah, and they just added it Retroactively.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Okay. So these caliber bullets are designed to kill, Like these are hunting bullets. They're used I just got ahead of myself, they're used in high-power hunting rifles that are used to kill game. So they know that the killer is probably a hunter. Yeah, which also? I mean it's Alaska, that's not a hard guess.
Speaker 1:The victim is identified as a 23-year-old, Sherry Morrow. She had been missing for about 10 months. She had been working as a dancer in Anchorage. The morning she left she had left a note to her friend, Lisa, that said she was going to a photo shoot. Specifically, she was going to a place called Alice's 210, I guess is what the name of it is, I don't know, I can't read my own notes which is in downtown Anchorage and she would be making $300, and that was the last her friend heard of her.
Speaker 1:Sherry's boyfriend was the one who actually reported her missing. One of the things he pointed out was that she had an arrowhead necklace that she always wore and that necklace was found with her body. Sherry wasn't the only dancer that had vanished. All the dancers that had vanished and we'll get to the number later were in their early 20s and they had disappeared after an afternoon date, usually saying it was a photo shoot or something. Anchorage was a bit like the Wild West at the time, so oil had just been discovered up on the North Slope and they had built a pipeline, which had been started up fairly quickly.
Speaker 2:Whenever I think of oil being discovered, I think of like the Beverly Hillbillies Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So Anchorage was pretty small at the time, but the population nearly doubled between 1973 and 1983. And Anchorage, because of that pipeline and all the dudes that came with it, there were, you know, of course, lots of money, lots of drugs and lots of illegal activity. Right Most visitors would wind up on 4th Avenue, which Bob Hope, the comedian, once described as the longest bar in the world. The area became known as the Tenderloin District because all of a sudden there were a lot of strip clubs and a lot of sex workers on the streets. In other words, the population, at least the population that we're talking about were transient.
Speaker 1:So when a woman was reported missing, it was assumed that she had simply moved on. In 1983, for a few years already, there had been reports made to Anchorage police of dancers and sex workers suddenly going missing. People close to them would say that the missing woman told them that a guy had offered her $200 for a photoshoot and then she just never came back. Officer Daly, who had been working foot patrol, said there had been rumors going around that something nefarious was going on and the dancers and the sex workers were very nervous. In April 1983, another woman disappeared. Her name was Paula Golding. She had worked as a secretary but didn't like that job, so she thought she'd try dancing and she realized so I guess there are different types of dancing. We usually think of topless bars. Right, there are also bottomless bars and yeah, yeah, uh, for some reason, when any anyone ever says bottomless, I think of Winnie the Pooh.
Speaker 2:That seems so inconvenient. I can't imagine trying to serve with part of your body exposed. What if you get scalding hot, whatever.
Speaker 1:I don't know if it was the servers, though I think it was just the dancers would take everything off, or at least that makes more sense.
Speaker 2:For some reason, I envision like all of the workers are like yeah yeah, I.
Speaker 1:I imagine like winnie the poohs or like donald duck walking around with like shirts on top it is?
Speaker 2:it is like winnie the pooh, because for some reason, like some of the animals only wear pants and some of the animals only wear shirts.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so she realized that if she went bottomless you'll make more money. Yeah, I bet the night she decided to go bottomless was the night she met a guy who offered her $200 for a photo shoot. Paula showed up at the prearranged meeting place. When she got into the car he threatened her with a gun and handcuffed her. From there he took her to Merrill Field where he had an airplane and apparently he would fly the women off to a remote place. So he put her in the plane and they took off and when they they landed there was a meat shack where he would take them.
Speaker 1:So if you're not a hunter, in hunting, once you get the game, you need to get it off the ground and get it dry. Yeah, so there's usually some sort of meat shack where you there are like poles inside and you tie the meat up to it and you use it to preserve the meat. He told paula that they would spend the day in the meat shack. God, I hope there was no meat hanging. Can you imagine how even more horrible that would be?
Speaker 2:yeah, this isn't that whole sentence. Let's spend the day in the meat shack, doesn't that? Ring bells raise red flags she was already having red flags.
Speaker 1:She didn't want to be there. She already realized from being handcuffed and smacked around that nothing good was happening.
Speaker 2:Now let's go to the meat shack. Yeah, nothing will go wrong.
Speaker 1:No, God, it sounds like a horror movie it really does it, really does it really does.
Speaker 1:So just as they were walking to the shack, a plane came down the river and made a pass, which I guess means that he was probably going to land, or it looked like he was going to land.
Speaker 1:The man decided that he obviously can't let the pilot see the woman there because she's clearly not there. Because she wants to be, yeah, uh. So he quickly gets her into the shack, tied her hands around a post, and then walked back out and the pilot apparently kind of waggled its wings, which I guess in airplane speak, speak means something like how are you doing? Are you doing? Are you doing okay? Do you need help, whatever? And so the man waved at him and the plane flew off down the river. He went back to the shack and freed Paula. She started screaming you're going to kill me, aren't you? And slapped at him and started running. He caught up to her and made her stop and he told her it's over, there's no real problem. She just kept getting more and more upset and she managed to break away from him again and started to run and he shot her.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So then, on Sunday, june 13th 1983, which was nine months after Sherry's body was found, cindy Poulsen, who's 17 years old, was working the streets at about 11 30 pm. So all of these women are like in their early 20s, but this I mean this girl's. She may be a sex worker, but she's still a baby girl. Yeah, a man drove up to her and offered her 200.
Speaker 2:Unfortunately, many sex workers are baby girls.
Speaker 1:Yes, so he offered her 200 and she agreed. She got into the car and immediately she's in handcuffs with a gun to her head. She didn't fight much because she knew he would do something if she did. He then took her to his house, took her down to the basement where he had a trophy room yeah there are sheep and goat heads mounted on the wall.
Speaker 1:There are rabbits and birds also mounted, which is just so creepy Like. I used to live in places where there was a lot of hunting and people had those kinds of trophies on the wall and it doesn't matter how nice those people are, it's fucking creepy, yeah, to have heads of anything on the wall. Yeah, I know you all think it's cool, but most of us think it's creepy.
Speaker 2:I think it's cool, but most of us think it's creepy. On the one hand, I can appreciate that taxidermy is a challenging art, yes, but on the other hand, yeah it's creepy.
Speaker 1:There's also a difference between taxidermy and heads on a wall.
Speaker 2:But you know what, weirdly, doesn't like skeletons, don't creep me out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they don't creep me out either, but yeah, like if it has eyes and it's looking at me.
Speaker 2:No me out. Yeah, they don't creep me out either, but yeah, if it has eyes and it's looking at me. No, thank you.
Speaker 1:Because I don't know when I think of taxidermy. I mean, I realize the heads on the wall are taxidermy too, but usually when I think of taxidermy it is in an art-like fashion. They're refashioning the animal to the way that it was in a lifelike and it's really beautiful, but the trophies on the wall say I killed this thing, yeah, and I'm proud of it. That absolutely is what it's about, and that automatic.
Speaker 1:How impressive I am, yeah and that to me even at like, because when I lived in a place where there was a lot of hunting and people had things on the walls, I was like eight, nine, ten. I didn't know what a serial killer was, but I was. You know, I afraid I was like these people are creepy. No offense to anybody who has animals on the wall, but that's what most of us think.
Speaker 1:I remember going to some house it was like a friend of like my sister and brother-in-law's, like they had some like animal rug and my brother-in-law was like that's an endangered animal and I was like and you're proud of it yeah, I know I was like that's why it's fucking endangered yeah, yeah, yeah, no, the, yeah, the rug, the animal rugs creep me out, the, the trophies on the wall and the pictures where people pose with their yeah, with their trophies. It's like, especially because most of the time.
Speaker 2:It's because they like paid poor governments a lot of money yeah, so they can kill that animal oh, I know I know it's all set up like you didn't have any hunting skill, you didn didn't do anything special.
Speaker 1:Like this was all set up for you to succeed. Yeah, that's also crazy, Like how can you be so proud of that? So he Were you going to say something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, although it's kind of an aside, I was just talking to Jay the other day about how like rich you know rich white men who run everything- you know, I mean, we know rich white men who run everything and I was just talking to to Jay about how the they are the, the group that is the least qualified to run anything, because they have never had to work or struggle to do anything Like, they've never had to achieve anything real or prove themselves.
Speaker 1:In any real way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, or face any adversarial conditions or survive in any kind of tough conditions or face any kind of strife whatsoever. Everything is just handed to them, and so they're absolutely the least qualified to make these kinds of decisions that involve all of these kinds of situations, because that's not a situation that they have ever had to or will ever have to deal with. Yeah, anyway, of course we all know that, but I was just feeling frustrated about you know who, a couple of particular gentlemen in the Oval Office.
Speaker 1:Gentlemen is a very nice word.
Speaker 2:Gentlemen in air quotes. Now all I can think about is I just didn't want to name the names. Yeah, I know, yeah, don't name them, don't name them. Yeah, they don't need any more publicity exactly, but when you said gentlemen, it made me think of.
Speaker 1:Since I've been watching pride and prejudice, I keep thinking of lizzie saying um, if you had only behaved in a more gentlemanlike manner, that's all that's yeah. Immediately went through my head. I don't know why. It's not that funny, but anytime I hear gentlemen, that's what I that's the quote I think of. If they had only behaved in a more gentleman-like manner. See, mr Darcy is the rich white man I can get behind at the end, yeah.
Speaker 2:At least Mr Darcy is a man who could admit that he fucked up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's why he's so hot. I mean, besides the fact that Colin Firth, you know, got out of the lake with a wonderfully white shirt on, that didn't hurt, that didn't hurt at all, just frosting on the already hotness cake. Okay, so this guy told Cindy that if she cooperated he wouldn't hurt her. He said that he wanted to have sex with her, but that he wanted her chained. So he handcuffed her to the bottom of a chair and had her neck tied with a rope around it to the coffee table. He told her there had been seven others before her and they all stayed. A week. He raped and assaulted her several times. Then he either chained her up elsewhere or kept her chained where she was. I was confused on that. And then he went to sleep.
Speaker 1:About five hours later he woke up and she told him she wanted to go home because she lived with her mom and her mom would be worried. He said that because he liked her so much, he would take her to his cabin and quote make love to her it's right, that's creepy, even when a nice guy says it and then he would take her home. So she, she said she knew she wasn't ever gonna go home if that happened. So he handcuffed her again and put her in the car she's barefoot at this point and covered her with an army blanket and drove to his plane.
Speaker 1:Now, he was in the process of getting his plane ready, so she knew she had to make her move, and so she managed to open the back door and she ran. He started chasing her with a gun and, if you can imagine, she's running barefoot and handcuffed. Yeah, uh, in this giant airfield and there's a man running behind her with a gun, and then a truck pulls up. She screams, the guy in the truck stops and she gets in. Uh, he wanted to take her to the police. She said no and instead said she wanted to be let out at a motel.
Speaker 2:Oh my, god girl, go to the fucking police, well just wait.
Speaker 1:She wanted to get out to a motel close to where she'd been staying, so the truck truck driver lets her off and then he calls the police. Now I like this particular officer that shows up and we'll get to wine later but officer greg baker and his partner were on patrol and so they went to her and they found the room she was in. She was still handcuffed and very upset. Oh uh, sorry, I made myself a note and then I'm like what is this note? Um, it said, I just want to note that the men in the episode kept referring to her and other victims, who are all female, as being hysterical oh my god, which I find super annoying because you can bet the farm they wouldn't call a man hysterical even if he was acting the exact same way.
Speaker 2:The word hysterical from her exactly vocabulary.
Speaker 1:These women have been handcuffed, raped, beaten, thought they're gonna die. How did I mean? Yeah, who wouldn't be upset?
Speaker 2:of course you'd be a fucking psycho if you weren't upset, yeah, then they would be like what's wrong with her? Yeah, you can't.
Speaker 1:So dudes quit saying hysterical.
Speaker 2:It's really irritating, it is and has a history of women's oppression yes, yes, very much so anyway.
Speaker 1:So the cops let her out of the cuffs and she told them what had happened. She gave them a very good description of the man. He had darkish brown hair, he was short, he had warts on his face, buck teeth, green or blue eyes and he wore glasses. She said he weighed about 170 pounds. He also stuttered. So they played his interview tapes in the episodes and I didn't hear any stuttering I'm not saying she lied, because lots of people said he stuttered.
Speaker 1:I just, I'm just noting that I didn't do you speak kind of slowly maybe at speech therapy no not really. He sounded normal to me. I mean he would like he would kind of repeat things yeah, um pause. But the pause didn't seem like anything out of the ordinary. It would be a pause after, like trying to think something. It didn't sound like.
Speaker 2:Sometimes I might like, because I have a lisp where I will pronounce like R's as W's sometimes, and I mostly have grown out of it. But sometimes I will come to an R where I know I'm going to struggle and then I will pause so I can make my tongue do the right thing.
Speaker 1:Well, it wasn't that kind of pausing. It's like pausing to like I'm going to think about the next sentence.
Speaker 2:I'm going to say so.
Speaker 1:it wasn't like in the middle of a sentence or in the middle of the word that's when I rarely do yeah, but I mean, it's also entirely possible they edited it or they only put in stuff where he didn't stutter, so.
Speaker 1:So cindy, though, is, for obvious reasons, a very reluctant victim, and one of the reasons being that she was afraid he would find her and kill her which I mean fair and another being that sex workers tend to not want to get involved with the police, understandably, since their work is illegal and they are often not believed. When they do go to the police, or if they are believed, nothing usually happens.
Speaker 1:Officer baker, though, did believe her yeah and he and his partner take her to the hospital to do a rape kit. On the way, officer baker takes her to the airfield. I don't know if it's on the way or if it's after the fact, but at some point they take her to the airfield to see if she can identify her attacker's plane. So the plane was there and she was able to identify it. So the officers stop, get out of the car, check the tail numbers and check who owns the plane. And while they're standing there a security guard comes up to them and says hey guys, I have this dude's license plate number, you want it? And they're like yeah, so they matched the two things and they have a name and an address. So they go to the address and I guess Cindy's still in the car with them and she positively identifies the house.
Speaker 1:The man was Robert Bob Hanson. He was married and had kids and he had, as a lot of serial killers do, a great reputation as an upstanding, successful business owner. He owned a bakery, hence Baker Butcher Right.
Speaker 2:Or the Butcher.
Speaker 1:Baker, or whatever his name is. Customers said he was very pleasant. He came off as humble, meek, quiet. It's always the humble, meek, quiet guys. Humble, meek, quiet it's always the humble, meek, quiet guys. His neighbor did say that he was strange, but was quote harmless strange. Robert grew up in Pocahontas, iowa, which is a small farming community. His dad was a baker, so that's where he learned the trade. His father, though, was described as a hardworking authoritarian who worked Robert very hard and wasn't given a whole lot for it. His father was demeaning and would make fun of him. Nothing he did was ever good enough.
Speaker 2:Whenever I hear authoritarian in conjunction with parenting you know, it's not good.
Speaker 1:No, he also had, as said said before, a very noticeable stutter and he also had bad acne which left him with a pockmarked face. So he was greatly bullied, particularly by girls in his high school. So he hated school for various reasons, not just because he was bullied and made fun of. He hated it so much that when he was in his 20s he, with a few others, burned down the bus barn, which I guess is where they keep the buses Now. Robert was also in the fire department at that time and after lighting the fire he then went to the fire department and he went on the call with the fire department to the fire he just set. He was eventually caught for the fire some months later when one of the guys that helped him set the fire confessed. Robert ultimately pled guilty and was sentenced to three years but served less than 19 months.
Speaker 1:Robert's father is so ashamed of what his son did that he left town. He sold his bakery and wound up buying a resort in Minnesota. Robert joined his parents in Minnesota and while he was there he met a woman named Darla who he married. At some point he and Darla decided to move to Alaska. Now, for those of you that don't know. Alaska is the kind of place where a huge chunk of the population go or have gone because they have a past they don't want to remember, yeah Right, or that they are trying to escape from. So he immediately got a job as a cake decorator and Darla got a job as a teacher.
Speaker 1:So Alaska is also where Robert became a hunter and he was apparently very, very good at it, especially with the bow and arrow, which he preferred because you had to get really close to the animals, so, like you had to have not just real skill in the actual bow and arrow but in like stalking and all of that stuff, right? So his skill at game hunting translated very nicely into stalking and hunting women. Oh lovely, yeah, oh lovely. In a post where they thought an eye bolt could have been which would have been used to with the chain to tie her up or chain her up, they see an ace bandage and some gloves in the car. So if you remember, back to the beginning, somebody had an ace bandage, yep.
Speaker 1:So they really believe that he's the guy. But there's a problem. Robert has two solid alibis. He claims he was with a friend who's also an insurance executive, so yeah, almost all night. And he also went out with another friend for beers and pizza. His friends backed him up, and the story that he told his friends in order to get them to comply is that he was lonely, so he had propositioned a woman and there had been, I guess, a disagreement about price. They weren't real clear about that, and so he told his friends that he didn't want his wife to know that he had strayed and that it wasn't like him. It was just a moment of weakness, so they complied. Yeah, I see you rolling your eyes. I did too.
Speaker 2:It's never like them.
Speaker 1:No, no, it's only once, I promise. They tried to get Cindy back to the police department to take a lie detector test, but she never showed up and after a little bit of investigation it turns out she and her pimp had moved to Portland. When the detective contacted the Portland PD, they were informed that she had been arrested a number of times under various aliases for solicitation, that she'd been arrested a number of times under various aliases for solicitation. So the Anchorage PD basically closes the case, labeling it exceptional clearance, which can mean a few different things, but in this case it meant that the complainant has disappeared. So, as it turns out, while the original officer, officer baker, believed cindy completely, the detectives did not believe her at all. Oh my god, they thought she was kind of crazy. Um, I mean, it had all the things up against her right. She's a sex worker, a very young sex.
Speaker 2:What about that truck driver? Wasn't he like a witness?
Speaker 1:I guess so, but I mean, I don't know. I guess the detectives just felt like, well, if she's gonna run away, then it really wasn't all that serious. God you know.
Speaker 2:That's why killers get away with killing sex workers and stuff. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So Officer Baker was extremely frustrated by the fact that nothing was being done and he complained about the lack of investigation to Ron Rice, who was a criminal investigator at the Anchorage PD. At the Anchorage PD I couldn't tell if he was the detective on the case that wasn't doing anything or if he just happened to be another investigator and officer Baker was complaining to him. But anyway, rice told him to take whatever information he had to the state troopers and to tell the troopers that he was the one that sent him. And so Baker did just that. At the time Baker takes the files over to the state troopers. They were in the middle of investigating the disappearance of some dancers. By the time they get a hold of Cindy's case there were at least nine dancers, as well as Eklutna Annie, who was a Jane Doe found in 1980 by the Eklutna power line, which is close to the Kinnick River. So I don't know much at all about Eklutna Annie. I still don't know if she has ever been identified.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:And they don't really know. I think if she was part of it, at least at this point. But they were investigating her as a possibility. Anyway, several weeks after Officer Baker gave Cindy's file to the troopers, paula Golding's body was found. So she's the second woman I mentioned earlier, the one that the guy took to the meat shack. Yeah, her body was in an advanced state of decay and they identified her through dental records. When they found her, her pants were unzipped, her sweater and bra were also ripped and there was also a single shell casing from a .223 rifle. So, just like in the first case, so now the troopers have two murdered women within a half mile of each other on the Knick. That's going to be Sherry Morrow and Paula Golding. They also have the .223 shell casings found in both graves shell casings found in both graves. And they also have Cindy Paulson's files where she said that the guy was going to fly her to his cabin in a plane. So they know these murders are linked and they begin to think they might have a serial killer on
Speaker 1:their hands. So they bring in Sergeant Glenn Fulthe to take the case. So he, I guess, was pretty famous at the time, at least within the trooper department because he had broken open a bunch of cases up in Fairbanks, nice. So he knows he needs to find Cindy Poulsen. When he starts to look for her he discovers that she's back in Anchorage working in a massage parlor. So he goes out to find her and he interviews her and she tells him everything she remembers, including the color of his socks, which just floors me. I don't even know what color my socks are, let alone somebody else's Right. He has her look at six photographs and one of them includes Robert Hansen and she identifies
Speaker 1:Robert Hansen. But again there's a problem. He's got those two strong alibis. So Frothy knows that he needs to either break the alibi witnesses or he needs to find other evidence to call the alibis into question. So he looks for any criminal records on Robert Hansen. But he couldn't find anything. And they did have criminal records of Robert Hansen in Alaska. The problem was that they were off being digitized and this is the early 1980s, so they're not online and they're not yet in a computerized system that you can just search. Yeah, right. So basically, if the files aren't in the filing cabinet or whatever, then they may as well not exist. You're not going to find them, but fulte lucks out, because there are some investigators who remember pieces of Hansen's past and I'm going to leave it there and part two will happen next time, okay.
Speaker 2:This is a very gripping tale.
Speaker 1:Is it? I hope so, I think so. Yeah, I don't know Anything else you want to talk about. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I don't know Anything else you want to talk about. Yeah, I just think that the capacity to not believe women is very insane.
Speaker 1:It is, isn't it? Yeah, and it's. I mean, that was the 80s, so not that surprising. But they don't even do it now. Yeah, Half the time.
Speaker 2:I once read an article about how pervasive sexual assault is in Alaska. So, yeah, I'm not surprised that this is like that. Plus, yeah, you know, yeah, I'm not surprised that it would be under-investigated.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I wouldn't either. You know Alaska's an interesting place. Oh, there is a movie. I've seen it before. I don't really remember it, but that doesn't mean anything. I don't remember what I saw yesterday most of the time, but it's got Nicolas Cage and John Cusack about this case.
Speaker 2:Not Con Air. No, it's not Con Air.
Speaker 1:No, I forget the title of it. Why can't, I think? Let me look it up real quick. But I remember liking it and I remember being creeped out by john cusack, which is a shame. John cusack was a bad guy, yeah it wasn't Nicolas Cage.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:Nicolas Cage was filthy. John Cusack is the butcher baker.
Speaker 2:What madness yeah.
Speaker 1:And John Cusack did a great job. I mean, he was creepy. Well, now I have to see this creepy John Cusack, let me see Frozen Ground, okay, yeah, oh, vanessa Hudgens and 50 Cent are also part of it. Nice, looks like it's on Netflix. Okay, I have Netflix right now. Okay, well, I suppose we talked about it while we were doing the thing. So do you have more? Oh, did you have something else?
Speaker 2:Oh, yes, I do have more on my missing person. Okay, so Luis Antonio Rivera was last seen by family or friends on June 4th 2023. So the information available is that he was on the road outside Trackside Sports Bar and Grill in Surprise Arizona on June 3rd 2023 in the early morning hours and into the early morning hours of the 4th, and he had last had contact with Surprise PD after making a 911 call. I mean that'll do it right, but when officers arrived and made contact with him, he ultimately declined assistance in getting to a new location. His vehicle was recovered from a person's property a couple of miles away in Whitman, arizona and they stated that Luis was offered a place to stay that night and when they woke up he was gone, but his car was still there. They stated he gave them permission to use the car. That's suspicious, yeah, it is. Another witness from the bar stated that he was having car troubles and when they offered to help him fix it, he offered the car to them. Oh Well then I guess not so much suspicious.
Speaker 2:He has not been seen or heard of since. I wonder if he was having some kind of emotional or mental, yeah crisis there, because, like, why would you just like give your car away?
Speaker 1:yeah, I don't know I felt like doing that with my fiat a few times yeah so sometimes it ain't worth the the effort
Speaker 2:let me see if there's any information. So it says to be advised that if you see him, don't make contact, but call your local emergency number or the phone number indicated for law enforcement on this record and they will instruct you for what to do. You can also let them know Luis Antonio Rivera's name and that they are profiled on this site. This way they can visit the profile and get information faster to follow up, and you can always leave a tip on what you saw by clicking the tip link on the menu, for missingpersoncentersorg is the website on the top of this page and let me see. I'm looking to see if there's a number to call here. Here we go. So you're encouraged to contact the Goodyear Police Department, goodyear Police Department, at 623-882-7448 or 623-882-7422 and ask for Detective Erickson. The case number is 202327121 and having that case number on hand will help expedite the process. Cool, okay, so I don't know why I just said cool, but yeah, I mean, we know what you mean, not cool.
Speaker 2:But if you have any information about luis antonio rivera or if you spot him, go ahead and give those numbers a call. Or if you don't have those numbers on hand, call 911 and let them know, rather than making contact with Louise.
Speaker 1:Yeah, All right. I think that's the first time anybody's said that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's interesting yeah. And we'll put the website and the phone numbers, yeah, in the show notes will yeah, that is the first time I've seen that, but usually, like I often profile like girls and women, not yeah, grown men, so that's true yeah, might be different. You did a few men did. They say that I don't know. I wonder if there's, if he has a record of like belligerent behavior yeah, I don't know, I know, but regardless, we hope that, uh, he's found, yeah, and that there's some closure on this case.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure so did the case, did the missing person? Yeah, so what about reading, watching, listening to? Yeah, well, I know you did. Dungeon Crawler, carl. I did do Dungeon Crawler, carl, y'all need to check that out, even if you're not into that kind of book. I'm not usually into that kind of book, but it's quickly become one of my favorite series. It's a lot of fun.
Speaker 2:It is a lot of fun. I just have read the first one you've read.
Speaker 1:You are in the process of reading the third one right so yeah, the first three are out now and I think the fourth one comes out this month. Nice, yeah, and I think, like one comes out every month through and it's stayed good right yeah, it's stayed consistently good.
Speaker 2:Nice. Yeah, I'm just taking a break because I read four books back to back and now my brain is like A little bit overload yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but no, it's a lot of fun. I mean, who doesn't love a talking cat? Right Named Princess Donut.
Speaker 2:Well, I go back and forth. Sometimes I'm like that would be so cool, and sometimes I'm like, gosh, I'm glad that you don't talk.
Speaker 1:Right. Yeah, I don't want to know what Alia really thinks. Alia is my cat, yeah, yeah. Yeah, agnes would be spicy. Yeah, she would be. Dexter would be like. I love you, yeah.
Speaker 2:Dexter is a very chill boy. He is a chill boy, very un-Princess Donut-like.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and I love that his catchphrase is Damn it, donut Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when they came in for that part where he learned that he had a catchphrase, I was also there with him. I was like what?
Speaker 1:Catchphrase yeah, me too, poor guy. Yeah, he's her minion apparently.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, we're all our cat's minions.
Speaker 1:That's true. That's true, yeah, and I love it. So we're not giving anything away by saying there's a talking cat, because it's on the synopsis, but also on the cover. I'm not giving this away either. He's in his boxers and a jacket, and that's it. He's barefoot after he throws the pink Crocs away. He's barefoot after he throws the pink Crocs away and he has to stay there.
Speaker 1:So if you don't know, I'll give a brief synopsis. So, basically, aliens have come, they've crushed everyone. Anybody not inside a building or something with a roof survives. They have a choice they can stay out in the cold or they can go down into the dungeon. The dungeon is an rpg game and you have to go down every level, right, but you are kind of stuck with what you wear until you win things, uh, like pants or something, and so this poor guy didn't want to be outside. He wasn't planning on, he was trying to rescue his cat, but he gets stuck having to, you know, fight all these awful things in his boxers, um, and bare feet and it's hilarious yeah and I want to give something away.
Speaker 1:So bad, I mean, it's not that big of a deal. But it's kind of a fun laugh to find out. It is a fun laugh to find out I think I know what you're talking about. Yeah and it was fun.
Speaker 2:I was thinking about it too, and but yeah, I think that that is fun for the readers to find out so, but yeah, you should. If you have never read lit rpg, yeah, but yeah it's, it's fun, it's got its its own little thing, yeah yeah it it.
Speaker 1:People are liking it. I mean like I've never been stopped by a manager at a bookstore before and like basically had a book foisted upon me. So I mean I was already looking for it, but Jude was like take them all. So I bought the three.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because I had heard about it from a booktuber.
Speaker 2:but I had this other, or I don't know if it was a manager, but I had somebody at Barnes Noble really pushed me at Camp Damascus by Jack Tingle, yeah, which did turn out to be quite good, right, yeah, so, but I think that he saw my rainbow strap.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. No, I was just looking around.
Speaker 2:Dude was like here you go, because I was looking for it, but I mean, I don't think I look like the kind of person who would read the lit RPG, but the dude was like you need to read this, Maybe everybody, maybe Dungeon Crawler Carl is going to be everyone's gateway into lit rpg.
Speaker 1:It might be, I mean if they're, if they're, if the rest are at all like it it's really good, and you know it. I mean they're. It's mostly fun, but it also kind of says stuff too. Yeah, it's definitely got.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think that this one has a lot of yeah, yeah themes that are really relevant, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the Very timely. The audiobooks are so good. Yeah, you like the audiobooks too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is, and my brother told me that there is also a more immersive version of the audiobooks that have like a full cast.
Speaker 1:Oh really.
Speaker 2:Oh, but you have to get that on the like the book Website Website. Oh, really, but you have to get that on the book Website.
Speaker 1:Website oh, okay, okay.
Speaker 2:But yeah, the guy. He sounds like the actor who plays Kronk in the Emperor's New Groove. He sounds just like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, that reminds me. I was kind of thinking that too and I went to look up what the narrator looks like. Dude looks like a. He looks like an absolute nerd. Yeah, he's skinny. He doesn't sound like his voice at all. Like I think if you saw this person in person and you started talking to you, you'd be completely confused yeah, yeah, um, okay, yeah, that was a good one.
Speaker 1:Did you read anything else? You said you're reading the book we're both supposed to be reading. Did you read american rapture? Not yet. I started it. I haven't finished it.
Speaker 2:Yet I read that one. Um, that was really good. I enjoyed it quite a bit.
Speaker 1:Not quite as much as may fly right I mean that's gonna be hard to top yeah but it was really good.
Speaker 2:I think it spoke to I don't know some another thing that I think that we can both relate to as well, which is like religious indoctrination and like maturing out of it. Yeah, but in this case the character has to mature out of it very rapidly because of the circumstances. So there is one scene. I'm not going to tell you what it is, but it's quite traumatic.
Speaker 1:So Is it traumatic, as in it'll trigger your religious trauma.
Speaker 2:Or is it?
Speaker 1:traumatic as in it's gross and disgusting, like that scene in Mayfly.
Speaker 2:It's upsetting, it's upsetting.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:So just keep that in mind, because when you get to it you might want to skip it. Okay, so Does it involve a dead animal? Just keep that in mind, because when you get to it you might want to skip it, okay.
Speaker 1:So Does it involve a dead animal? It might. Oh, no, okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So yeah, there's that, but other than that I really enjoyed it quite a bit. Mm-hmm. And what else have I read? I'm reading Killers of a Certain Age. I'm reading the Dinosaur Artist. I've got a lot of books like in play, right now. I'm sleep reading my way through War and Peace yeah, that was our book.
Speaker 1:We were supposed to read chapter a day for the year.
Speaker 2:I fell off of it for a while, or actually, yeah, that was our book. We were supposed to read chapter a day for the year, and then I fell off of it for a while or actually the book went missing, but it was under my bed, so now I have it back.
Speaker 1:I was like how could such a large book go missing? I know it's like a thousand pages, I know.
Speaker 2:I knew it had to be under the bed Right, like I was just like I have to. Yeah, that's also where the exorcist had been. But yeah, I was like I just gotta go get it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you're under the bed is where your black hole is. Mine is the closet. Yep, okay.
Speaker 2:Gotcha. So now I've got that back, so kind of back on the War and Peace wagon. Yeah, so it's a snooze fest.
Speaker 1:It is a snooze fest. That's why I was like we should do it a chapter a day, which is how I did it originally. Yeah, Because then you're only snoozing a little bit, but now. I have to catch up. Yeah, I don't know, maybe the audiobook would be better. I haven't tried the audiobook.
Speaker 2:sometimes classics can be really snoozy, but if you get a really good audiobook narrator yeah it's less snoozy yeah, but you were like this is the the narrator of this or not narrate the interpreter? People are really good, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're supposed to be the best translators of that book so far. Do they have an audiobook of that? I? Don't know, I haven't even looked for the regular audiobook.
Speaker 2:I don't know why I'm asking you, Like God, don't you know the?
Speaker 1:answer no, I do not know the answer.
Speaker 2:I guess I should actually can find out yeah, I just.
Speaker 1:It only just occurred to me to think about the audiobook.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, so I've made some more progress. So it is tempting to dnf it, but because I put it up on my goodreads, yeah, you're being shamed into reading it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm being shamed into continuing. Well, you know it's an awesome brag to have when you're done. Yeah, at least among the literary Right Maybe not the average person, but it's true. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I don't know. Yeah, I told my therapist, or whatever, that I was reading. She was like, oh well, you're smart. I don't know if it takes smarts, it takes endurance.
Speaker 1:Yes, endurance, yeah, yeah, and the ability to just yeah, yeah, not give up, don't give up.
Speaker 2:Okay, I will not.
Speaker 1:I mean, I'm not saying it gets better. Right, don't give up. Okay, I will not. I mean I'm not saying it gets better, I'm just saying Having it done is a really good feeling of accomplishment because it is a chonker.
Speaker 2:Yep, yeah. So according to Goodreads, I'm like 11% through.
Speaker 1:I know it's also one of those books where the percentage moves very slowly because it's so long You're like I've been reading this for hours. How am I only 2% in Right?
Speaker 2:So that's going on in my book situation situation and in my tv situation. Uh, jay and I have been watching the second season of squid games where I think halfway or almost halfway through. So I it's, it's good, um, but I'm kind of nervous because, like I said, like I'm worried that the main character is going to get killed this season, um, because he's he's pushing his luck too far. So I'm like you know, like it's one of those things where, like you got to keep going, but I'm like now I'm attached to this character.
Speaker 1:I don't want him to die now, yeah.
Speaker 2:So yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that. What about about you? What have I been reading? Yeah, well, I've watching, taken a little bit of time off because I had read the um two of the tuesday night murder club, which I mentioned last time. Um, I read the first two and part of the third of the dungeon crawler carl. Um, I keep wanting to say dungeon carl crawler.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know why?
Speaker 1:so that's kind of it for reading. I just like my brain is like no more words right now, and for watching pride and prejudice over again yeah, I um so listening wise.
Speaker 1:Normally, when I need a break from reading I I listen to podcasts. But I haven't been listening to podcasts either, like I'm just, nothing appeals to me, so I've been listening to, like 80s, 90s, punk and as well as blues. Yeah, so I've been moving back and forth between those two, forth between those two, uh, and I have, instead of doing anything, I should be doing like I don't know, catching up on my grading, for example. Um, although I'm not behind, I'm only if I'm only this week behind but, uh, I have been watching the 90s colin fir, pride and Prejudice, just on repeat, over and over and over again, while I play mindless games on my phone that I don't even particularly like. I just can't stop. I need to to break that addiction somehow. We all need to, I know. I mean I just look at my, like my hours and I'm like how did I mean? I started at like 11, 11.30 yesterday and I went till 1.30, and I have no idea where my hours went.
Speaker 1:I mean, I know where they went, but it didn't feel like that's where they went.
Speaker 2:I know.
Speaker 1:But it shouldn't happen every day, no, so yeah, just re-watching that Pride and Prejudice, which I had taken a break from for years, and now I just can't stop re-watching it. I don't know. I don't know um, I don't know. I guess I'm I like mr darcy. I used to never like him, um, but I I was never, pride and prejudice was never. I think I've said it before it's not my favorite of the austin, um, even though the trope is my favorite romance trope.
Speaker 1:But yeah, as I, as I get older, I like Mr Darcy a lot more. Yeah, yeah. Mr Darcy's a very sexy asshole he is, and not just because Colin Firth in his wet shirt.
Speaker 2:No, it's not just Colin Firth.
Speaker 1:That's Mr Darcy. Well, yeah, mr Darcy, and Mr Darcy the character. I mean he's kind of a dick at the beginning, but the wonderful thing is that he takes it upon himself to fix himself and not expect anything in return, not expect like a huge round of applause. He just did it because he knew that he needed to do it, and that's hot dudes. If you're listening it is, you're much more hot dudes if you're listening it is. You're much more likely to get laid if you do that Than if you are only doing it because you want to get laid.
Speaker 2:Yeah, rachel's like no, not really. No, no, I agree, you agree, I agree, yeah, no, I don't know what.
Speaker 1:I'm just kind of like yeah, well, we did, just eat quite a bit had some delicious cupcakes.
Speaker 2:No, I was just thinking about the likelihood of how many men would take that advice, though yeah, zero.
Speaker 1:but I always say, I always say, you know, like men are always like I don don't understand women, and I'm always like read Jane Austen, like all of Jane Austen, and you'll figure it out.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Right, like, even if the women haven't read Jane Austen, we're all in there. Yep, you will figure out all the women in your life if you just read some Jane Austen. It's true, I mean it's true, it's not hard like and not just the women, but just like, pay attention to the men yep right and you'll figure it out how she just shows, yeah, how we perceive men to be and how they come off.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, just yeah, all the different kinds of men and all the different kinds of men and all the different kinds of women and you know yeah, she's so good at just capturing that people, yeah, those characters, yeah, yeah yeah, and they're.
Speaker 1:I mean they and those may be fictional novels, but they translate to real life human interactions and they are applicable now and they're applicable now. That's why they're still some of the most popular books, and those movies keep getting made, and made, and made.
Speaker 2:Although women can get jobs and do things now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's slightly different, but yeah, but the essence of the characters is the same. Yes, yeah, no, I really do believe. I think that's a hill. I would die on that. If men just read some Austin, yeah, I think life for everybody would be a lot better. Everybody read.
Speaker 2:Jane Austen.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but particularly relationships, I think would be better. Yeah, yeah, anything else. I think we're both just kind of crapping out at this point. Yeah, a little bit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's it. I was trying to think if I had read any more books since we last talked, but I think that is it. Like I said, I have a bunch of books in play, but I haven't finished them out, really, um, let me look at my list. Oh yeah, I finished emma. We kind of talked about that personally, but yeah, I haven't finished it yet.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's not like I've never read it, but yeah and I read a short story called dear laura by uh jemma amore, which is like about a a lady who whose her little boyfriend is kidnapped when they're both children, they're both around like 13 or something, and she sees him kidnapped right in front of her and then the kidnapper is basically blackmailing her for years and years and like basically her whole life.
Speaker 1:Blackmailing her why? Because she doesn't go to the police, or something.
Speaker 2:Blackmailing her why? Because she doesn't go to the police or something. Blackmailing her for information so that she for inform because the the kid is never found, his body is never found, and so he's blackmailing her to her with for information about, okay, what happened to her.
Speaker 1:So she'll, she'll pay, or whatever. Then he will give her information where to find him. Yeah, so she'll pay, or whatever.
Speaker 2:Then he will give her information where to find him. Yeah, okay, gotcha, so she'll do certain things give him certain things.
Speaker 1:Okay, gotcha, gotcha.
Speaker 2:And her just her whole life is kind of captive. Yeah, from this dude, yeah, so yeah it was. It was a, a gripping short story, yeah, so I, I enjoyed it, and quite creepy because it's like like, what would you do in that situation?
Speaker 1:yeah, so did you know it was a short story and you bought it, or is it like part of a collection?
Speaker 2:or no. I knew I I got it on audible and I it was like um, I think it was like short story sale or something like that. Okay, yeah, so, okay, yeah. So I like when those happen, because I enjoy listening to short stories, sometimes when I'm like what am I going to listen to next?
Speaker 1:But like.
Speaker 2:I don't want to pay like full book price for a short story. So sometimes they'll do like a sale where it's like a couple books I'm like okay, yeah, a couple hours a couple bucks, right, yeah. Sale where it's like a couple books and I'm like, okay, yeah, a couple hours a couple bucks, right, yeah, no I hate that that they charge you as much for a two-hour story as they do for a 24-hour novel.
Speaker 1:That is ridiculous. No sense they. They do that in the in the hard copies. Yeah, yeah, I've seen that there's that french author that I really want read, but I'm not paying 20 bucks for a 12-page story.
Speaker 2:That's fucking stupid.
Speaker 1:You can't have all my money, you capitalist pigs? Yeah, I mean you can and you will, but I want to pretend I have some control.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we all do. Yeah, we all do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that reminds me. I don't remember exactly what was going on, because I was living on two hours of sleep, but in one of my classes. So I normally I've had to stop because I'm not supposed to be political or anything, so I can't just say because capitalism, because that's usually what's, yeah, what is at the core of a lot of this stuff, like slavery, for example, right, or is at least interconnected with racism and whatever. Anyway, um, I've been trying to like not say that and I've been getting better about it, but like, uh, I almost said it. Uh, I forget what I was lecturing about, but the the one of my students was like, um, jesus, fucking capitalism. I was like thank you, yeah you say it for me?
Speaker 1:yes, thank you, yeah, yeah, I did. I was like I was gonna say something along those lines, but I'm not supposed to be political, so thank you for making that connection for me, so I don't have to get in trouble.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I don't think I would really get in trouble. But students might complain. Yeah, students, students might complain. I one student he didn't complain to like a boss or anything and he never complained to me but on one of the evaluations he said that, um, I was anti-conservative, and I mean fair, but I never like, said anything, like there was nothing. I don't know, like I was just following the way. It was like my first semester of teaching, so I wasn't giving any opinions, I was just literally following the textbook, which was what my job was supposed to be right. Um, and I was like, well, technically, the book is anti-conservative.
Speaker 1:If you're gonna say that, sometimes facts are, yes, sometimes a lot of times facts try and erase history yeah, I know, and I I was trying to rack my brain and think like in what part of this is anti-conservative? Like it's just it's the first half of american history, like I mean, obviously we're talking about slavery. But I mean I don't know, I don't necessarily know that that's what they were referring to, but I don't know. I thought that was funny I don't know.
Speaker 2:I would say anti-capitalism is often associated with liberalism, but there are many liberals. Like you know, the Democratic Party is very much a capitalist party.
Speaker 1:Oh very much so, yeah, and you would think, like when I have talked to conservative people like not so much the Trumpians, but you know, like under bush or whatever, um, and I would say things like what about this, this, this, this and this? And they're like, yeah, that would be awesome. And I'm like cap, like that's yeah communism, socialism, that's. That's not capitalism. That is, in fact, directly against capitalism. Like you are not a cap, you don't like capitalism, you like the other stuff. You just fear the word.
Speaker 2:Oh my god I was arguing with some friend of my mom's or whatever on facebook, which don't argue with people on facebook.
Speaker 1:Be smarter than me yeah, it doesn't get you anywhere, but frustrated I was offended because it was like a friend of my mom's.
Speaker 2:I was like I was like I like mom, why are you friends with these people? Yeah, and like she had posted something about a certain orange dumpster fire, yeah, and somebody was like that's not true, even though it totally was true, yeah, and I was like mom, why are you friends with these people? Right, and so they were like arguing with me or whatever, and they were trying to. They're trying to are you some super religious point?
Speaker 1:or whatever.
Speaker 2:And then I came back with them with a bunch of bible verses. I'm like, what about all these bible verses?
Speaker 1:yeah, that, oh, that is my favorite game to play with religious ass right because they think that nobody is familiar with the bible. Half the time they aren't familiar with the bible. Half the time they aren't familiar with the bible they're familiar with like five verses.
Speaker 2:they don't know what's in their own. Yeah, religious texts yeah, my dad used to read the bible back to front, yeah, like over and over again. Yeah, so, anyway, um, so I came back with all these verses and I was like these are directly opposed to those policies, right? And then she was like looked on my profile and she was like, well, you're a socialist.
Speaker 1:And I was like, okay, that has nothing to do with religion either and Jesus Although now you can't even do that, because now they're like Jesus is too woke. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Now they're like Jesus is too woke, yeah.
Speaker 2:Exactly. But I was just like at that point, I was just like okay, well, argument over, because she's got nothing, except for I'm a socialist, like obviously I'm a socialist, yeah, yeah. I'm like I have a profile that's like a. You see my profile it's like an artist rendering of like Bernie, with a background of like Democratic Socialist of America with like roses raining down yeah. Like it's not a secret that I'm a socialist.
Speaker 1:No, yeah, oh, I know it's a trip. Life has been a trip, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so anyway, but yeah, don't be like me yeah, no, it's.
Speaker 1:It's tempting to get into arguments, but I've I've had to learn to just like not and so I don't. Even I don't go on facebook anymore, and instagram is, um, I've become addicted to it, but I'm trying to retrain my algorithm to be like whales and kitties and things again, and not not the other stuff.
Speaker 2:Unfortunately, like sometimes, our argument you're winning arguments is dopamine giving oh, yeah, very much so that's hard. Um yeah, I've tried to do animal stuff too, but then I can argue with some animal people too yeah, I know you do, I just, and I also just don't read comments, I just look at the pretty pictures.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, that's. I should also not do that. Yeah, yeah, because I I got in one yesterday where I was like there was a post about cat declawing, right, which is horrible, yeah, and everybody was like this is horrible, and so it was like, well, what about docking dogs? And like, most people don't agree with docking dogs, but docking dogs is what I was saying.
Speaker 2:objectively, it's far less harmful than declawing cats, because you're removing the tips of their fingers, the tips of their toes that they walk on, so then they have to walk on the tips of those toes. And it's like the Little Mermaid, where every step is agony. Yeah sure, docking dogs is bad, but let's not take the focus away from declawing cats.
Speaker 2:Especially since dog advocacy gets so much more attention than cat advocacy. Yeah, which all has to do with the patriarchy as well, right, right, because cats are associated with women, with women, yeah, all of this stuff. But studies show, you know, people take cats to the vet less. They have less empathy for cats. Cats are more prone to abuse and neglect and also cats are very stoic in their pain.
Speaker 2:They don't overtly display signs of pain and a few dogs have been declawed, but they stop that rapidly because dogs would scream. They would just scream with every step that they took. And so people were like, well, this is awful, yeah, but cats don't do that, right, they hide their pain, yeah. And so it's just like can we not talk about dog-dogging? Because any time there's any video or any, if you see a picture of a dog-dog, people are like dog-dogging is horrible, and so that conversation is everywhere, already Right, and I'm horrible, and so that conversation is everywhere, already right, and I'm like can we not?
Speaker 2:yeah, and people were like well, it's just as bad, or?
Speaker 1:like no, it's really not. Yeah, it's horrible, but they're a different. And then they're like they're like blah blah.
Speaker 2:I'm like I'm not advocating for docking dogs, right? I'm just saying this isn't the time to talk about it right, this is a completely different.
Speaker 1:But anyway, people on the internet just I know I know you're all.
Speaker 2:Just don't look at the comments. I know you're all people too, but it's like I don't know Like we're having this conversation whatever. At least people try to be civil.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:But on the internet people don't try and be civil or try to understand the other person's perspective person's perspective.
Speaker 1:No, not at all.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's why I avoid comments.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I learned that on myspace. Yeah, don't read stuff. Don't go looking at your friend's top eight. You are much wiser than I am. I just I don't know. I've got to a certain point in life where I just want to keep my peace.
Speaker 2:I just get frustrated and, like just some part of me, just has trouble with the fact that people are not rational.
Speaker 1:I know, yeah, you want people to be rational.
Speaker 2:I know. I know that they're not.
Speaker 1:I know.
Speaker 2:I just want them to be.
Speaker 1:I know.
Speaker 2:And I hope that they will be. But also I can recognize that rationality is a biased perception as well. And my conception of rationality is not another person's conception of rationality. Yeah, but still yeah. That's something that's just deeply entrenched in me and it's really hard to let go of. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:No. So yeah, I know that one of my coworkers I guess we're not in the same department, but he asked me if I saw the State of the Union and I was like, no, I want to keep my peace. I don't want anything that angers.
Speaker 2:I didn't watch it.
Speaker 1:I saw bullet points and I'm like, oh yeah that's enough to like ruin my day.
Speaker 2:I don't know yeah, all this little information that you get without even trying, that's already enough yes, that's exactly it.
Speaker 1:I I know so many people are like you don't watch the news anymore and I'm like I get enough of the information, like I know that it's bad, yep, and getting immersed in it isn't going to do anything.
Speaker 2:No, it's not going to do anything except for make us upset and depressed, make us upset and depressed and not sleep, and not productive and not productive.
Speaker 1:You got to pick and choose which you can fight, and you know you can't fight all of the things you take it upon yourself to fight the one or two things you crippled by the crushing weight of what's going on in the world, then we're not going to be effective advocates.
Speaker 2:Yeah so, and everybody's got different limits everybody.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I. I mean, I used to have a much higher tolerance because I was in journalism and um, but yeah, as time goes on, I'm like I, I can't. That's not a sustainable way to live.
Speaker 2:No me too. I used to have a higher time. I think many people have. But it's just. It just keeps going and it keeps getting worse.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I have developed a more like like I need to just at least live some moments of my life in peace, exactly rationally. I know that this world sucks right now and that our nation sucks, and I get enough information to know that I don't want to be immersed anymore and that I am just going to do what I can, and also continue to live and of course, we also recognize that living moments is pieces of luxury. It is a luxury, it's very much a luxury.
Speaker 2:But it's a luxury that people who can have that luxury can't afford not to take. Yeah, so, yeah, well, I mean, mean, I also mean like, and hopefully then we can fight for other people to also have that well, I also mean by keeping your own peace, meaning you can't take on all of the things oh yeah, that's what I mean, it's like, like you, you know, focus on what you can do, because you can't do it all as much as you want to.
Speaker 1:And it doesn't mean you don't care about those other things, it just means that you are a human being and it's better to do.
Speaker 2:We don't all have energy and resources.
Speaker 1:Nobody does, nobody does. But also and maybe I'm wrong, but I think it's better to focus on one or two things that you can really effectively do and do them well, rather than focusing on all the things and doing none of them well very true you know, yes, I often feel that way'm like I can't do anything well.
Speaker 2:Like, yeah, I feel that way too. Like stretched too thin. Yeah, I already was feeling that way before all this. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And there are some times, I think, people also think that you have to do big things in order to make a difference. Very much not so. That is very much not so. And look I, my disposable income isn't great right, but I know that I have some, and so I have decided to take it upon myself to buy, to purchase hard copies of books that are banned or censored. Yeah, I mean, there are so many that I know I won't be able to get them all, but at least that's something. Yep, and in case, just in case, anything has to happen or anything does happen.
Speaker 1:I will at least have those copies and also you're giving money to those authors.
Speaker 2:Even when we go to the library. Yeah, and that helps. Yeah, check out the more people who support the library, the more legitimacy the library has to continue. Go to the library.
Speaker 1:check out Right, that costs no money. And if you want to help the ban or censored stuff, check out those books. Check out books. Put books on hold.
Speaker 2:Put books on hold.
Speaker 1:Put books on hold, because the more those books circulate, the more likely they are to stay on the shelves, absolutely. And you are making a difference, even though it's not quote, unquote a huge thing, and libraries are one of the last free spaces that people have. Yeah, and you're doing more than just the books like those are places where homeless people can go to have a few minutes of peace or go on the computer or go on the computer for jobs or look for resources, exactly like sign up for benefits and things like that that you need electronics to do yeah and it's a place for kids to be able to do you know who may not have access to things to get it's.
Speaker 1:It's access for so many people, for so many different things so and that is a free thing to do yay, libraries yay libraries. But anyway, my point being, you don't have to do the big thing, you can do a small thing, and that makes a world of difference to a lot of people, absolutely so, okay, um, I don't know, now that we're off that soapbox, or maybe we should get off our soapbox, um, is there anything else?
Speaker 2:um, I can't think of anything else that I've really done, or yeah, just been tired, been stunning vietnamese and yeah, and you've been working. Yeah, I've been working. I've been working all the jobs, because being a stay-at-home parent is another job.
Speaker 1:Yes, plus, you've got a money-making job. Yep, so I've got two jobs. Yes, you've got two full-time jobs Yep. Yep.
Speaker 2:And yeah, we've been all studying Vietnamese and yeah, it's not going so well. I mean, I guess it's going okay, but I'm not very good at language, so it's very slow for me.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, you're doing better with your Vietnamese than I am doing with my Danish.
Speaker 2:That's debatable?
Speaker 1:No, it really is. It really is Like what I've discovered is I'm pretty good at it while I'm doing it, but the second I get out of the app I don't remember anything. Yeah, I remember nothing.
Speaker 2:That's why I don't have very many points on my Duolingo, because I review the same lessons over and over again, because that's the only way that I'm going to remember it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, see, for me, I think I need to combine methods of learning.
Speaker 2:yeah, I think I need like an actual textbook yep um, and then use duolingo for like um pronunciation and and um, yeah and listening practice, it's definitely getting to the point where I could use a Vietnamese textbook as well, because I'm like I don't understand this grammar at all. Yeah, yeah. I've been complaining to you about it, I know Well.
Speaker 1:I, me too, you know, and yeah, and also what I, I guess what I don't like about it is that I literally the other day it was in the middle of, like you're supposed to repeat what they say.
Speaker 1:Yep, I sneezed while I had the thing down and it said it was correct okay, yes, oh my god, so yeah I mean granted sometimes danish does sound like a sneeze but, and the other thing is like with with danish, they're giving me words that are just like in english, which is fine, but how about we look at some words that are not just like right in english and sound like they're in english, like weekend is weekend. Yeah, that's I mean how?
Speaker 2:about giving me days of the week, but you probably don't need to do it over and over again.
Speaker 1:No, I don't need to do that 17 times in a row. Thank you, duolingo. Mm-hmm. Yeah, so, oh well, anyway.
Speaker 2:Vietnamese doesn't have very many words that sound like English, but soup is soup, so that one and I think I told you cat is meow. Yeah, that's great, I love that.
Speaker 1:I love that too. Cow is cull, yeah. So I mean, if they're not exactly the same, they sound very similar.
Speaker 2:I don't know livestock names yet, but I think I'm getting to it.
Speaker 1:I think Jay's done that already, because they're way ahead of me, and sometimes they combine words where I'm like really A yellow cow.
Speaker 2:Or a pink cow.
Speaker 1:How about a black and white cow? Those are the ones I don't know, so keep telling me black and white, not yellow and pink.
Speaker 2:Yeah, jay was complaining about some of the sentences that are in some of the later lessons, but I think those sentences exist to like teach the differences in, like the different tonal sounds. That could be.
Speaker 1:Well, at least in Vietnamese, but in Danish they're completely different. Yeah, I just don't know.
Speaker 2:It's just silly.
Speaker 1:It is silly, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Like maybe teach us something we're going to talk about.
Speaker 1:Right, exactly, and I mean usually they're pretty good about that. That's what most of the sentences are, are like you know, have a nice weekend Right. Or do you speak Danish, or are you from Norway? You know, those are things you'll probably ask at some point. But telling somebody the cow is pink and yellow.
Speaker 2:Maybe there are a lot of pink and yellow cows.
Speaker 1:Maybe I haven't been to Denmark. Maybe they dye yellow cows. Maybe I haven't been to Denmark. Maybe they die their cows.
Speaker 2:I think Jay has been briefly. I'll ask them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, okay, so you've been doing all of the things? Yep, I've been doing the things, doing all the things except sleeping, except sleeping. I would like to sleep. I don't know what it is with me. I've always done that. It's like there will be like one week every few months where I don't sleep. Yep, and I need it, I need to sleep, but I, I just can't, for whatever reason. I'm exhausted.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I go through phases where I'm like like I don't sleep for like a week or two and then like I do nothing but sleep for like a week yeah, that's exactly it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for the first time in since I was seven years old, I've taken a day nap. I have never I, no matter how tired I am, I can never sleep during during the day. And I was so exhausted because I hadn't slept at all and I took a five-hour day nap. Yeah, of course, then I didn't sleep at night, right, so?
Speaker 2:And then when you wake up, you feel all weird. Yeah, You're like wait, what day is this today?
Speaker 1:What time are we?
Speaker 2:doing what's going on? Yeah, what year is it? What time are we doing? What's going on? Yeah, what year is it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, is it morning, is it night? What time? Yeah, yeah, okay, so anyway, I guess that's it, yep, so please like subscribe, download, review Email. Email would be nice. Uh, also hit us up on our socials the the podcast is on instagram and facebook things I don't think I've posted, since I bragged about our little lucy. Let me win yeah, you should probably talk about how late our episode is. Yeah, and also, um, we have our individual instagrams linked as well.
Speaker 1:Neither one of us are particularly good at social media yeah we're on it, we just never post, it's true, um, but also, nobody ever looks at our stuff. So if people looked, maybe we would post more, or maybe not. Probably not, but um no, probably not. No, I'm gonna be honest you were posting quite a bit for a while I was doing my manicures yeah, and then, like I dropped off manicuring, yeah so that's, I dropped off the social media.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like after you post like whatever, like 100 manicures, and you can't just post something different you could, you can reinvent yourself, you can okay, but the my my instagram handle is eenie manny meenie nails, that's true, like that's true um, I can't even say it eenie manny, meenie nails.
Speaker 1:I don't even know what my last post is. Let me see. Oh, my last post was when you did the possible spy episode. That was my last post. Prior to that it was it was november 5th yeah when matt murphy signed my, uh, my, his book, nice, the book of murder that's post-worthy yeah, yeah, and not that he would be listening, but if he is, I got a few more people to buy your book.
Speaker 2:I should get some royalties out of that I should I have my nails done now, but but the polish has already come half off from washing dishes oh no, you're supposed to wear like those gloves or whatever. Yeah, but I hate the way that they feel. Yeah, so it didn't used to matter so much because I used to do my nails like twice a week right. So yeah, that's okay yeah, but yeah, they like maybe you'll get back to it one of these days, mint mojito by hollow taco okay, um, so yeah, uh like.
Speaker 1:Subscribe. Download review. Hit us up on our socials email us ask us questions, yeah, or tell us to shut up and stop talking politics, or whatever. We won't um, we won't, but you could tell us? To okay and we will talk to you next time. Bye.
