Details Are Sketchy
A bimonthly true crime podcast, in which two friends share an unsolved disappearance or unsolved case, a crime they're most intrigued by, and talk all things true crime.
Details Are Sketchy
The Case of Ryan Waller and Heather Quan
It's Rachel's turn this week, and she doesn't disappoint. She tells us about the Ryan Waller and Heather Quan case. There's no missing person this week, but as always, we chat about what we've been reading, watching, and listening to.
Our next book is Deborah Blum's "The Poisoner's Handbook: Murder and the Birth of Forensic Medicine in Jazz Age New York."
Sources:
Murder With My Husband - "The Infamous Interrogation of Ryan Waller"
Weird True Crime - "Ryan Waller and Heather Quan" by Billy Skeleton
Unilad - "Murder Suspect Interrogated for Six Hours Before Police Realize He's Been Shot in the Face" by Tom Wood
Medium - "Ryan Waller's Story"
Maricopa County Attorney's Office - Larry Loyd Carver Convicted for 2006 Murder of Heather Quan"
Get in touch with us:
Instagram: Details Are Sketchy - @details.are.sketchy
Facebook: Details Are Sketchy - @details.are.sketchy.2023
Instagram: Kiki - @kikileona84
Instagram: Rachel - @eeniemanimeenienailz
Email: details.are.sketchy.pod@gmail.com
I'm Kiki and I'm Rachel, and this is. Details Are Sketchy A true crime podcast, and this is a new episode. We're not even gonna pretend to know which number this is.
Speaker 2:This is certainly an episode, and it's distinct from the ones that came before that is true.
Speaker 1:So, um, you don't have to hear my voice doing doing during doing doing the main. Unfortunately, you will have to hear my voice doing doing during doing doing the main, unfortunately. Uh, you will have to hear my voice story. No, not unfortunately. I'm sure they're tired of me.
Speaker 2:It was three episodes three in a row, you've got a funny voice though I think I do too.
Speaker 1:I think I sound like a mouse.
Speaker 2:Well, maybe people who like funny voices dig our podcast they like mousy.
Speaker 1:And what would you say?
Speaker 2:yours is I don't know, I don't know what mine is, just weird, odd to me you're just rachel, so I don't like hear a, an odd. Someone told me I once I have an interesting timbre to my voice, huh. So I don't know what the fuck that means. I don't know either.
Speaker 1:I don't know either, I get. You have an interesting accent a lot of the time by Americans primarily.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I always want to know where I'm from. I'm like I don't know.
Speaker 2:Well, and you've lived all over.
Speaker 1:And I've lived all over, yeah.
Speaker 2:You have an international accent. Sure over, and I've lived all over. Yeah, you have an international accent. Sure, I was gonna say cosmopolitan, but I know that's like a specific thing, isn't it, where people sound really bougie? Like this or something.
Speaker 1:That's not it, but yeah, I know what you meant. Yeah, I used to want to have an accent like katherine hepburn, which is like very north Hampshire-y, I'm sure, but also it sounds so educated. Yeah, but I could never mimic it. Wouldn't that be an interesting talent to have mimicry.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it would be. Speaking of that, I watched. I was watching a Q&A with some of the cast of steven universe and voice actors. They just blow me away. Don't like how they can like do all those things with their voices yeah, and I mean just their. Their original voices, already right, are very interesting and unique. That's yeah why they are voice actors. But then they can like pull out this whole arsenal, yeah, of other voices yeah, like the lady does.
Speaker 1:Bart simpson. Yep, yeah, did you know she? I mean, I don't know, I have no idea why I know this piece of information, but she is the aunt to Sabrina Carpenter. I did not know that. I don't know why. I know that.
Speaker 2:My daughter's therapist. Her first name is Sabrina and her second name is a C name. I don't want to like out my daughter's therapist but like yeah, it's Sabrina C something. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's sabrina c something. Uh, yeah, and I made an appointment with a psychiatrist and I was like her therapist said this and that and uh, the receptionist was like what's the therapist's name? And I was like sabrina carpenter and he was like, uh, isn't that a celebrity? I had to think about a second. I was like, oh shit, yeah, I mean, and I was like it's not that, but it, it sounds just like that.
Speaker 1:So then I had to go like through my contacts and like look up her real name, like I swear I'm not making this up, it's probably like bullshit, like she doesn't even have a therapist, she's just saying the names of celebrities, um, okay, anyway, I am a bad person and I don't have a um witch magic or I've had a day I was planning on doing it this morning but we've had some, uh, some issues. It happens, it does happen. It feels like it happens a lot more often these days yeah but maybe that's just because I'm in the loop.
Speaker 1:Your responsibility more, yeah um, okay, yeah, so I don't have a missing person, so we're gonna go with, uh, just rachel yep, just rachel is missing just rachel is missing.
Speaker 2:There you go. Um, okay, so my case is the case of ryan waller and heather kwan, and, uh, I want to shout out my wife jay, because, uh, they were the one who brought this case to my attention. I was like I don't know who to do. I don't know what case to do. They were like how about this case that I heard about, and yeah, so that's what I'm doing.
Speaker 1:How long ago did it happen? Or you're gonna tell me, I suppose.
Speaker 2:Ah yes, I am about to tell you. Okay, that happened in December 2006 in Phoenix, arizona, the land of eternal sunshine and blazing heat. Hell on earth.
Speaker 1:Yes, it is.
Speaker 2:And so this concerns a young couple, ryan Waller, and his girlfriend of eight months, heather Kwan. They I think that she had just moved in or recently moved in with him and they were going to spend the holidays together. They were going to both do their you know family stuff together On Christmas. Ryan's family expected him to show up to Christmas dinner but he never did and that was surprising and concerning and so they're like what is even going on? And he was supposed to bring Heather with him as well, and so they were concerned. So Ryan's father got worried and he decided to do like a well check, like an official well check, including the cops and stuff, because Ryan wasn't answering texts or calls or anything like that. And uh, so, uh, this account well, there's a few different accounts and they differ. We, we know how this goes right. Yeah, of course, one account like he just went to the door or whatever. Another account he looked around and like through some of the windows or whatever and saw somebody slumped on the couch and that got him even more worried.
Speaker 2:In the first account, the cops already were with him. In the other account, that's when he called the cops, but it said they were waiting for a search warrant. However, that's when he called the cops, but it said they were waiting for a search warrant. However, here's again two different accounts. One account says that their roommate arrived home and let herself into the house and so after the cops saw that, they knocked again and she answered the door and allowed them entry into the house. However, another account doesn't talk about a roommate at all and says that it was Ryan who answered the door. That's a big disparity. It is a big disparity and I think I know why, but I'm going to talk about that later. Another account yes, it was Ryan himself who opened the door.
Speaker 2:This account reported that standing there in the door was Ryan himself. He was alive, but he had an intense bruise over one eye and his eye was swollen shut and also some other scratches and bruises on his face. And at that point the cops asked him Hi, are you Ryan Waller? But he didn't reply. He just kind of looked at them and so they informed him they're there to conduct a welfare check. Uh, because of the call that his father placed and telling him that the reason that his father was concerned is because they missed the Christmas dinner. Once again, ryan didn't really respond. It just kind of was staring at the police, according to this account. Uh, so the cops kind of try to peek around the house and in this report that's when they notice that there's, like, the body of a woman or there's a woman lying on the couch.
Speaker 2:They don't know what kind of state she's in. They ask Ryan hey, what happened to your eye? Why is it black? Why is it swollen? Once again, he didn't say anything. And so the cop points out hey, there is a woman on the couch behind you. And is that your girlfriend on the couch? Uh, and they told him that, hey, your dad told us that she was supposed to come along too. So they want to check and make sure she's okay too. And Ryan responded I don't know. And ryan responded I don't know. He says I don't know who's on the couch. So they're like okay, well, is that a woman back there? Is she asleep?
Speaker 2:And at that point, uh, this account reports that ryan became defensive, saying like I don't know again, but like, kind of belligerently, he seemed confused but also not cooperative. However, eventually they did get him to step aside and let them in. What they found inside was the body of his girlfriend, heather Kwan, lifeless on the couch. His girlfriend, heather kwan, lifeless on the couch. Ryan was there alive, but again with that massive black eye. He had dried blood on his face and so, being the boyfriend and that, coupled with his odd behavior, immediately the suspicion was on him as a suspect as the suspect really, with the police uh thinking that this had been a domestic dispute gone wrong. So ryan was taking, taken into custody while they processed the scene. So ryan was taken to a police car and put in the back seat of it, basically in holding, and that report says that when he came out his dad was relieved to see him but he was like, why is he in cuffs?
Speaker 2:Phoenix police had dispatched paramedics for Heather to assess the situation. When they arrived around 1.30 am, rushed into the apartment to tend Heather and confirm that Heather was in fact dead. So at that point the responders walked back to their vehicle and drove away, never having set eyes on or examined Ryan. So Ryan spent like four hours in the back of that police car and eventually he was taken into this station around five in the morning and they start a lengthy interrogation and this is really kind of infamous because it's caught on tape and you can go watch the tapes on YouTube. It's kind of hard to watch. Um, so ryan has been changed into like a white jumpsuit and he's uh, sitting in his chair, he's handcuffed to the table and he is fidgeting. Uh, he looks uncomfortable, his eye is severely bruised, like, even though the camera is like one of those ones up in the corner of the room, like you can see that his eye looks completely blackened.
Speaker 1:Wow that's very visible, yep.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it looks bad right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it does, but it does look like a black eye.
Speaker 2:It does look like a black eye, but there is more, and I'll show you that later actually. So he's fidgeting in his chair, he has obvious discomfort, he's shifting, he's moaning under his breath, he's acting like he has a really bad migraine or something. I know how that feels, yeah. And now he's waiting, waiting, waiting for like 10 minutes. He's cuffed to the table and it seems like he's not sure what to do. He looks at a piece of paper, he keeps trying to get up and like he'll stand up, and then he realizes he's cuff's, coughed and sit back down.
Speaker 2:And then a bit later he tries to like stand up again and he does that several times, so it's like he doesn't realize, he's not realizing that he's coughed Right. So finally a cop enters the room, takes some pictures of his injuries and even tells him he'll eventually get some sleep. He keeps asking to go to sleep yeah, because he's moaning. And he's repeatedly saying, one, he wants to go home and two, he wants to go to sleep. Does that behavior remind you of anything?
Speaker 1:That he wants to go home and go to sleep.
Speaker 2:It's the kind of behavior that people have when they have a concussion.
Speaker 1:Oh Well, that's not what I was thinking.
Speaker 2:In the video and you would think that cops would know that right. They're supposed to know shit like that right. What?
Speaker 1:basic kind of things.
Speaker 2:I don't think that they would.
Speaker 1:You think they should, though they probably should, but I don't think that they would. You think they should, though they probably should, but I don't think they do.
Speaker 2:I mean, like a concussion is a really common injury. So in the video the detective comes in and takes photos. He tells Ryan he's not going anywhere when Ryan is asking to go home and go to sleep. And if he does go anywhere, the cop says it's going to be to a hospital. So obviously he sees that ryan's not doing so hot right. And ryan says why? Because my eye. And the detective says yeah. Ryan asked does my eye look bad? And the detective says yeah, I would say it's bad. So remember that, remember that.
Speaker 2:And throughout this Ryan is moaning under his breath and shifting around, looking for all the world like a man in a great deal of pain and discomfort. So that detective leaves and after a while the interrogating officer comes into the room, which is lead detective Paul Dalton. So he starts trying to make small talk. He asks if Ryan has seen like cop shows or lawyer dramas. Ryan says I don't know. But it doesn't stop there. He asked Ryan then if he knows why he's being questioned. Ryan says no being questioned. Ryan says no, he seems fidgety, he seems in distress, he can't stop moving. It could seem like he's uncomfortable. He could also say maybe it looks like he's agitated, yeah, so he points to his face and he asks the cop, is it really bad? The detective then begins to read ryan his miranda rights. He asked ryan if he's ever seen cops to try and explain to him what he's doing, and ryan again says no. The detective is like you've never seen cops and he's like no. And the detective's like well, I renew your rights. And then after a pause, ryan says yes, I have seen it. So the detective's already like okay.
Speaker 2:And after the detective reads Ryan his rights, he asks him what's the highest grade you made in school? Like he's trying to get some background information on him. And ryan says I don't know, I don't know. And he's like did you graduate? What's the highest grade? And he says eighth grade. Not true, right, by the way. Yeah, uh, did you graduate? Ryan says he doesn't know. The detective says do you have a GED? Ryan doesn't know, he wants to go home. He reiterates. So the detective asks him okay, do you have a girlfriend? And Ryan just doesn't really answer. He seems blank out. He asks does he know Heather? Because Heather is the woman on the couch. No response and he says again do you know Heather? Ryan says mm-hmm and he says okay, what's Heather's last name and he says mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:And yeah, he sounds uncooperative, I mean, I know where the story is going, but yeah, he does kind of sound uncooperative. He says, okay, what is her last name? And then rises I don't know her last name, and he's like you don't know her last name. And then he says it's kaiman, which is right, and the cop asked if he can spell that, no, he can't. Ryan, uh, is acting like he doesn't really know heather, even though she was his girlfriend for eight months. Right, and I can see also how it seems uncooperative. But at the same time like why would you pick those kinds of things to lie about when, like that's already information the police would obviously have known?
Speaker 1:like If you watch 48 Hours, people do that all the time. Yeah, Because they're just trying to. They're trying to be dicks Because they're just trying to be dicks?
Speaker 2:Well, he doesn't seem like he's trying to be a dick. He seems like he's drunk or something.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, that's probably it. They're probably like this guy's on something or he's just trying to be uncooperative.
Speaker 2:So you would think that he would have some kind of feelings, right, about what he is being asked, because his girlfriend is dead, but he is acting like he wasn't even there, right, he is not even pretending. The cop asks how old Heather is and Ryan says 16 or 17. Okay, she was 21. The detective asks more questions about Heather and the majority of answers from Ryan are I don't know, or sentences that don't make much sense, like at one point he says B is the answer, like it's a multiple choice question, right? Um, eventually the detective asked ryan what happened to his face, and, uh, and, and he said name, and the cop says no, is that an accident? Uh, so he like is like jumping around, yeah, like he doesn't know. When he's asking what, right, even though they had moved on to uh, heather hitting him, or they think that heather hit him. It's like the cop you know how cops do, like those leading questions, yeah, try and lead you into a direction. Like he's trying to lead him into saying that heather hit him right, only ryan is not getting it right. He's acting agitated, he's frustrated, he's raising his voice, he's like I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. He seems annoyed and the detective also seems to become increasingly annoyed. So, despite the confusion, the detective keeps on asking about the injuries, but Ryan's answers only get worse from there. Ryan then says that Heather hit him with her hand, and then he's asked why. He replies she was helping Christina with her head doing her hair. Who's Christina? And the detective says who's Christina? Right? And Ryan says she's on the couch and the detective says okay, well, what's Christina's last name and what does Christina look like? And Ryan, raising his voice and sounding agitated, says I don't know, I really don't know. Man, his voice sounds slurred, like I said, like he is under the influence of something. So at that point the detective starts ryan about a couple different people. You would think that they would have tested him for intoxicating, like a breathalyzer, like isn't that a routine thing that you would do if somebody is acting intoxicated? So anyway, uh, at that point the detective starts asking ryan about a couple different people he had mentioned earlier back in the crime scene. Ryan claims to know none of them. Now he asks Ryan what happened last night? Ryan says I really don't know. The detective tries asking more questions about Christine on the couch and Ryan says no, heather was on the couch and when the detective confronts him about the contradiction in his statement, he's like Ryan, you just said Christina was on the couch. Ryan raises his voice again. He's trying to stand up, he's slamming back down his chair. He says I don't know, I just want to go to sleep, man. I just want to go to sleep, man, I just want to go to sleep.
Speaker 2:The detective says okay, we're gonna start over what happened last night. Once again, ryan says I don't know. The detective says why is your nose all beat up? He's like I don't know. He says who is Heather? Ryan says Eric's girlfriend. Okay, heather Ryan says Eric's girlfriend. Okay, is Heather Eric's girlfriend? And then he says no, she's my girlfriend. I don't know. I don't know. I just want to go to sleep, I don't know.
Speaker 2:So once again, the detective asks okay, let's go back to what you just said. So Heather hits you in the eye, right, like you said earlier, heather hits you in the eye, right, like you said earlier, heather hit you in the eye. Ryan says no, alicia did. That's the roommate, uh. So the detective says okay, why did alicia hit you? And he says she probably hit it on something. And so the detective is like hit one on something, I mean. He says I don't know, I don't know.
Speaker 2:Ryan does not seem lucid. He can't keep up with the conversation or keep track of when he is talking about Heather, alicia or Christina, whoever that is. So the detective flat out tells Ryan in a forceful voice you know that girl in your house is dead. That girl was behind you in the house. She's dead. And Ryan says Heather. And the detective says you tell me. And Ryan says the girl on the couch is dead. And he says I don't know if she's on the couch. And then he says while these people came over, richie and his dad were shooting arrows and darts. They hit me and her with those. That's it. And Heather wasn't there and Eric wasn't there. It was just me and Heather. And he also named, dropped Richie and his dad and another two names interrupt Richie and his dad. Uh, and another two names. So the detective responds okay, just tell me exactly what happened.
Speaker 2:Ryan says Richie and his dad tried to break in through the back and that Richie used to live there in the apartment as a roommate of his and that Richie and his dad hit him because they were trying to get their stuff. So the detective then asks okay, and they did this with a bow and arrow? And Ryan says they each had two revolvers. They didn't let off any shells. So the detective, extremely annoyed, tells Ryan, you just said they had bow and arrow. And Ryan goes no, that's not what I meant. They had revolvers. I meant they had revolvers.
Speaker 2:So the next part is important, obviously. The detective says okay, what happened next? And Ryan said they shot us both. The detective says they shot both of you with revolvers. And Ryan says yes, they shot me in the eye. And then they shot us both. They shot both of you.
Speaker 2:The detective asks again yeah, they shot both of you. The detective asks again yeah, where did they shoot you at? I got shot in the eye. You got shot in the eye, I think so, with a revolver. I think I don't know man, I don't know.
Speaker 2:And the detective says you don't know a lot, ryan, and he says Did you shoot Heather? Ryan's like like no, I didn't shoot heather. And the detective says tell me the truth, ryan. He's so frustrated. Ryan says richie and his dad came over. And I don't know, I don't know they came over. He says they put him in a sleeping hold and I lived through it. So the detective's like okay, ryan, what's a sleeping hold? And he just continues to say I don't know, I really don't know.
Speaker 2:The detective confronts him with what has gone on in the interrogation, he says okay, ryan, listen to you, listen up. According to you, heather hit you. No, alicia hit you. No, heather and Christina are on the couch. Nevermind Alicia, christina and Eric aren't even there. Richie and his dad broke in through the back and shot you with bows, nevermind, it was revolvers. And then they shot you in the eye and Ryan's like and the detective is like okay, was the gun a BB gun? Ryan goes no, it was a revolver. The detective says Ryan, if they shot you in the eye with a revolver, you wouldn't be talking to me right now. Ryan says how do you know? He says because you'd be dead. And Ryan says well, I thought that too, man, and he's just saying it over and over again. He wants to go to sleep, he wants to go to bed. The detective's like that's not going to happen. Bud, your girlfriend was just found dead on your couch and you're lying right now. I don't think he sounds like this, I'm just this is my douche cop voice.
Speaker 2:You can't even tell a straight story. He asks if Richie and his dad shot Heather after they broke in through the back door of the kitchen. Ryan says yes, and this part takes a lot of pull from the detective as he tries to piece together the story. So he's like maybe Richie and his dad knocked and he opened the door and they pushed their way in and they shot you. And he's like yeah, yeah, yeah. And he goes and they shot Heather in the face. Yeah, yeah, oh. And Ryan says during in the face, yeah, yeah, oh. And Ryan says during this time he was trying to get up off the ground, he saw Heather sleeping, so he just lay back down. The detective says none of this makes sense.
Speaker 1:I'm kind of there with the cop, though. I mean, if you don't know what you're about to say, then it would feel like one either the guy's drunk and you're about to say, then it would feel like one. Either the guy's drunk and you're irritated, or on something, or he's just being purposefully irritating.
Speaker 2:Well, we'll get to that, but there's a lot of negligence on the part of like his face is really fucked up and they didn't get him examined. Even when the paramedics were right there, they didn't ask for him to be examined, and if they thought he was intoxicated they should have tested him for it. And so continuing.
Speaker 1:They don't. They should have. I just looked it up. I just looked it up. They don't do that unless it's like a the person has obviously Like it was a hit and run, the guy was drunk, whatever they don't, I'm not saying they shouldn't. Maybe they should.
Speaker 2:But that's not something they should have. Gotten him looked at by a paramedic, sure, and you'll see, I want to show you this picture. So Ryan says during that time he's trying to get up off the ground but he saw Heather sleeping, so then he lay back down. The detective doesn't think it would make sense. He says right now you're saying you've been shot in the eye with a revolver. Ryan says yes. So this has been like half an hour now he's been telling him I've been shot in the eye.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I can also again. I mean, I'm not saying that the cops didn't make mistakes, but I am saying most people don't survive. That is not supposed to be a survivable gunshot.
Speaker 2:He doesn't seem coherent at all.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:And he's showing signs of concussion-like behavior. You can see, I will show you in a minute. So what did you do with Heather last night? And Ryan says her dad came and shot up the whole house. So the detective is getting even more frustrated. He throws up his hands in the air. He throws up his hands and he's like so her dad came and shot up the house. And he's like yeah, yeah. And he goes. So richie is heather's dad, ryan says.
Speaker 2:Ryan says after he was shot in the eye, he tried to go back to sleep and he didn't call 9-1-1 because he wanted to go to sleep. So the detective is like okay, well, if, if richie heather's dad who is not heather's dad, by the way okay. So he said he wanted Sorry, I repeated the same shit over again. So the detective says why again? Why did you shoot Heather? He says I didn't. She was shot once by her brother. Now he says I swear. So it was Richie, her dad and now her brother. The detective says and you were shot in the eye too. Ryan says yes. So finally the detective decides that maybe you should look closer at this. So he asked Ryan hey, can I take a closer look at your face. So he's trying to figure out what's going on. So he looks at Ryan's face and the second he touches ryan's head. Ryan says oh, my head hurts.
Speaker 2:And the detective abruptly gets out and exits the room. At this point he walks out of the room and when he comes back in the room he's acting like a completely different person. His attitude has gotten done like a 180. He walks back in and now he's. He sounds really calm, he sounds really compassionate and he's like the fire department's coming and they're going to take you to the hospital. Ryan says you're taking me to the hospital and he says why? I don't want to go to the hospital, I want to go to bed.
Speaker 2:And the cop uncuffs him and says we just need to make sure you're okay. So the cop unccoffs him so obviously he doesn't think he's a danger anymore. And they both sit there and wait and Ryan keeps pleading to go to sleep, saying he doesn't want to go to the hospital, he wants to go to sleep. And finally the paramedics come in and the detective is like you're not going to believe this. I looked closer at his face. He keeps telling me he was shot by a revolver and he whispers to the paramedics and says I think those wounds right there near his nose is a gunshot entrance. Here's a picture of his face. He's got two holes in his nose.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I can also see how, if you didn't tell me that, I wouldn't have known. First of all, that doesn't look gaping and second of all, I wouldn't know that unless I were right there. It does to me because but would it if you didn't already know it would?
Speaker 2:look like something had happened to him more than he's just been hit. They also find out when they arrested him. It was rather forcible, and they also knocked his head into the ground, so you would think that they would have gotten to examine him just for that, yeah.
Speaker 1:I agree with you there.
Speaker 2:Okay, hang on, let me go back to my thing. So the paramedics look at him, the fire department looks at him, anything. So the paramedics look at him, the fire department looks at him and, uh, suddenly they of course whisk him away to the hospital. So the bullet went through his nose like this, lodged into his eye and into his brain, and probably the fact that it went through his nose is what saved his life, because it probably slowed the bullet down.
Speaker 2:Yeah no doubt the bullet was lodged in his head and yeah, not to reiterate the point, but he had to wait in his house, wait in the backseat of the comm car for four hours and then go through this interrogation before he was even looked at by medical personnel. Someone said it wasn't obvious that he was shot because there was no blood and again, like that cop in the interrogation, you would assume that he would be killed. But he does have those holes in his nose and and they mentioned he oh, your nose looks beat up. But they don't really take a closer look at his nose or his face at all. Um so, overall the whole thing, it was over six hours before he received medical attention. So at the hospital they find that he had been shot in the face.
Speaker 2:The the bullet entered the left side of the nose. Like I said, it went through and entered his eye. It caused brain swelling and lodged a bullet splinter behind his left eye. Additional damage came from bone fragments in his brain. He also had a broken jaw from being tackled during his arrest. An infection in his brain delayed surgery to remove the bullet and he had to spend 35 days in the hospital and endured unbearable seizures afterward and he had to have either one or possibly both eyes removed. Some sources said both eyes, and I guess that was because there was so much brain damage. They also removed a portion of his brain, so he had blindness and severe seizures the rest of his life. Is he still alive? No, he died anymore. He died, uh, at 28 from complications due to the brain injury.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the couple had only been in the house for a few months when on. Well, here's where again, differing accounts, and this is kind of a critical one. This one account says that the incident happened on the 23rd, where he wasn't found until the 26th. So we do know the perpetrator richie carver, a former roommate and friend. His father, larry carver, decided to break in. They rang the doorbell and ryan got up to see who it was. Upon realizing when he opened the door and he saw it was the guy that he had been having beef with, he tried to shut the door immediately, but richie reached through and shot him in the head twice. This first bullet was the one that entered his brain. The other one skimmed the side of his head and took off a piece of his skull, following Following that Wait, do we know where in his head?
Speaker 1:like would his hair have covered it? I?
Speaker 2:mean his hair was short, but I was trying to look at a side picture from his intake. Let me see if I can, if I can find it. I don't know if this is the sign, but there is some blood there, but I don't know if that's the side that the other bullet went through or not, Because his hair is pretty short.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I could see how that. If that is where it went through and grazed his skull, I can see how they wouldn't have noticed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can see them not noticing that one skull. I can see how they wouldn't have noticed. Yeah, I can see them not noticing that. One See, and even with his.
Speaker 1:Even in the side picture with the hole there. I wouldn't know that that's a hole. Yeah, I mean, I agree with you. I don't remember you saying at first that he was forcefully, like they banged his head enough to break his jaw. I didn't know that. That changes the interrogation entirely so.
Speaker 2:Following that, Richie went into the other room and shot Heather dead on the couch and presumably, while Richie's motivations are not clear, he has some kind of personal vendetta against Ryan and so Wait, I have a question.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry. I was busy thinking when was Ryan shot when they shot him? Not in his face, I mean, like where in the house Did you say At the door? At the door, yeah, do we know how far away the door is from the couch?
Speaker 2:Because I'm just wondering why Heather wouldn't have heard that wouldn't have well heard that they, uh, they said that, uh, that they could see the couch, like behind ryan um when, when, like, he answered the door and, however, in some of his accounts he said the back door, so I don't know if, if, if, it's the same door that they could see the couch from that he entered through so, and do we know how?
Speaker 1:heather was positioned, like what, what I'm? I'm just asking if, like, she maybe heard it and she was trying to get up, or if she was like napping I don't know what position she was in, but they it wasn't clear whether she was sleeping or dead until they came in and got a closer look at her right.
Speaker 1:No, I was just thinking, because if she was like laying down, no sleeping, then maybe she wouldn't get up. But if she had tried to get up and they shot her, then it would you know, she'd be in a different position yeah for sure.
Speaker 2:Uh, no, I couldn't find any information like details about her position or anything like that. And one thing that I had thought too is that which I felt like was a slip-up or whatever. Is that like they believed? Because they saw that she was shot? They saw that they could tell that she had been shot and like wouldn't you try and find the gun? Or, you know, look around the place and try and see, like is there a gun? Like where are the bullets going through? Or whatever, mm-hmm, and if you did that kind of investigation, wouldn't they have found the evidence also of Ryan having been shot at the door?
Speaker 1:I don't know Again there's not a lot of blood, so you wouldn't be looking at him getting shot, yeah, but like where's the gun, where's the you know?
Speaker 2:wouldn't you look around the whole?
Speaker 1:place Perpetrators hide things all the time. I mean, he could have driven away and come back as far as I could find they didn't even ask him about the gun. If it had been three days, did they know it was that day?
Speaker 2:We don't know. Here's the other thing, too Heather was killed just because she was in the wrong place, wrong time, and so some said that Richie had a dispute with Ryan, some people said he had made advances at Heather, and while some said that he just wanted to steal Ryan's stuff, which is one of the things that Ryan said I had put the. It's really horrifying to think that Ryan has spent the next like two or three days at his house with this escalating brain injury, confused, not able to call for help, not knowing what happened. Accounts about this timeline, that this timeline is manufactured, uh, by the police, because some other friends and witnesses reported that that wouldn't have been the case, it couldn't have happened on the 23rd and that it probably happened that same day of one of the things that struck me wait, can I?
Speaker 1:can I ask why they would say that like, like? Is it because they saw him? Because?
Speaker 2:if it happened days before. That was the main bit of their evidence that the police used to get out of being sued by. Ryan's dad, because their expert said that he had been so long on his own that those six hours didn't make any difference.
Speaker 1:No, I understand. That's not the question I'm asking. I'm asking what the friends said wouldn't be the case, like did they see him? Well, they have another roommate.
Speaker 2:Alicia, Like how could she have been there, living there for three days in and out and not have noticed anything?
Speaker 1:But didn't you say that some accounts didn't say that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, so exactly. Some accounts didn't say about Alicia, but he even mentions Alicia. So if Alicia, alicia would be an inconvenience to the story that it happened days before. But if alicia exists and says no, like you cannot miss the fact that there is a fucking body. Well, yeah, apart no I, I and I.
Speaker 1:Okay so, alicia, but you said several friends said that that wouldn't be the case. Did that all of them say it's because, alicia, or did they use other things? I'm not saying that, it's not true.
Speaker 2:I just want to know what the friends said I don't have details of what it was, so hang on.
Speaker 2:A brief bit about Richie's arrest. Richie was arrested initially and this other source said there were reports of a personal vendetta between Richie and Ryan, but that they barely knew each other. Richie had a history of assault and domestic violence charges, along with a four year prison stint for armed robbery. He was convicted of felony murder and sentenced to life in prison without parole. Richie's dad, larry Carver, fled to California after the crime, taking the murder weapon with him.
Speaker 2:Cheryl Larry's wife initially claimed that he confessed to the murders upon returning. However, she later recanted her statement, leading to Larry's acquittal due to spousal testimonial privilege, which is a legal loophole that protects spouses from testifying against each other in criminal cases for events that occurred during their marriage. However, heather's family lobbied for change and a new statute, heather's Law was born that amended the marital privilege statute to compel a spouse to testify if they voluntarily provide police with information about the other spouse's involvement in a serious crime. After a legal battle, larry carver was re-indicted and sentenced to life in prison without parole in 2013. However, here's where I I found a bit about conflicting accounts about when the account attack occurred. Ryan's family and roommates testified that his roommate happened on Christmas night, not the day before, as claimed by police. Even Heather's obituary has so listed her date of death as December 25th. There's also the suspicion that the police might have altered the timeline to divert attention from their failure to provide timely medical care to Ryan Ryan's. So that's all I could find about it.
Speaker 2:Possibly because they had been in contact with him. The roommates would have been in contact with him. Argued for a different timeline, Ryan's family took the Phoenix Police Department to court, seeking $15 million for mishandling the case. However, weeks before the trial, the case was dismissed, citing expert opinion that the delay wouldn't have made a difference to Ryan's injuries. The Waller family disagrees and continues to hope for justice and for the case to be reopened against the Phoenix Police Department and for the case to be reopened against the Phoenix Police Department. And sadly, of course, like I mentioned, Ryan's story didn't turn out great. He moved back in with his parents due to his severe ongoing health issues. He suffered regular injuries from seizures and on January 20, 2016, he passed away as a result of a severe seizure.
Speaker 1:So he's only 18. When that happened he was Because you said he was 28, right, yeah, 28.
Speaker 2:Yep, yeah, he was. Well, that's, that's awful.
Speaker 1:It's awful anytime, but yeah, it's awful when it's a really young person who hasn't had a chance yet. So wait, you said somebody got out of jail. Who was it that got out of jail?
Speaker 2:No, they uh, so the, the, the, it was the son, richie, and his father who committed the crime. Uh, his father, larry Carver, avoided sentencing for a while because the the person who had the testimony against him was his wife and there was some kind of spousal privilege.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I got that. But I thought you said somebody got out of prison in 2016. He no, he was um sentenced or yeah, went to trial or whatever he went.
Speaker 2:He uh was sentenced in 2013. 2013 yeah okay, larry carver, and then, uh, ryan passed in 2016 and richie's. They're both still in jail yes, do we know what their?
Speaker 1:sentence was life, life, life without pearl.
Speaker 2:Good, um, so the people for from responsible for heather's quons just were held accountable, but of course doesn't erase the nightmare that ryan endured in police custody. I said medical treatment should have been a priority, not an afterthought, in regards of guilt or suspicion. He should have been a priority, not an afterthought, and regardless of guilt or suspicion, he should have received immediate care.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, especially if they like tackled him like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, which.
Speaker 2:I don't even know why, hard enough to break his jaw. It seems like that wouldn't have even been necessary, because he didn't seem like he wasn't really with it.
Speaker 1:No, he didn't seem to be violent or anything. No, no, yeah, that seems wholly unnecessary. That's interesting and so, yeah, I was always wondering that, like, if somebody dies from their injuries years later, do they ever get resentenced? Like I mean, I know they were sentenced for Heather's death, but let's say Well, let's just not even say this case Like, let's just say in general Um, you shoot somebody, you intend to kill them, but you don't, and you're brought up on attempted murder, but let's say from complications, from that injury, you caused they pass away like 10 years later.
Speaker 1:Do they then get recharged.
Speaker 2:Didn't we talk about this or a similar situation, with that case that you?
Speaker 1:did about that? I think it was coma. I think that had to do with a coma.
Speaker 2:Yeah, with the mother and daughter victims. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the Guyanases, was it the?
Speaker 2:Guyanases Because she did that dying testimony thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know. They should be held to something, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, I mean, in that case they would have been held. You know attempted murder. But what I'm saying is, would Ben be recharged? Yeah, they didn't even they didn't charge him at all.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:On attempted murder for Ryan.
Speaker 2:I don't think that they. No, from what I could see, maybe from like I don't know, like maybe, yeah, maybe attempted murder, but I it seemed like the case was mostly about uh, it's the girl Heather. I want to say Michelle, but it's not Michelle, it's Heather. Um, some kind of uh, gen X or name.
Speaker 1:Heather. Huh, heather's a Gen X or name yeah definitely um, but I knew a lot of heathers. Do you grade school?
Speaker 2:yeah, not not now not around here well maybe.
Speaker 1:Okay, I think I found, maybe it depends on region yeah, I probably did. Uh, okay, I found some answers according to AI.
Speaker 2:Okay, okay, so, yes, so take it with a grain of salt, yeah.
Speaker 1:In some legal systems, a charge of attempted murder can be converted to a murder charge if the attempted murder victim dies from the injuries sustained during the attempted murder, especially if those injuries were a direct result of the initial attack not limitations. This is not an automatic process, and the prosecution must still demonstrate that the initial intent was to kill, even if the victim's death was caused by complications later.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I mean they. Obviously the intent was to kill. They shot him twice in the head, yeah well, I was just looking at in general.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because, like one of the things I was thinking of was our local big murder, the um bowling alley massacre. Right, yes, don't quote me on this, but I'm pretty sure in one of the things that I read or saw one of, because there were two survivors. One of the survivors died years later from complications from the wound. So I was wondering, if they ever get caught, would they also be charged with her murder, even though she didn't die that day or within the close timeframe? So intent is key. The core difference between attempted murder and murder lies in the intent. Attempted murder requires the intent to kill, but the victim survives. Murder, on the other hand, requires not only the intent to kill, but also that victim dies as a result of the actions.
Speaker 1:If the victim's death is due to complications arising from the injuries inflicted during the attempted murder, the prosecution may argue that the initial intent to kill was still the cause of death. The prosecution still bears the burden of proving that the intent was to kill, even if the victim's death was delayed. They must demonstrate a direct causal link between the initial actions and the ultimate death. It's important to understand that the charge of attempted murder does not automatically convert to murder. The prosecution needs to present evidence to convince the court that the original intent was to kill and that the death was a direct consequence of the actions taken For the defense.
Speaker 1:The defense may argue that the death was not directly caused by the initial attack or that the perpetrator's intent was not to kill, even if the injuries were severe. They might argue that the death was due to medical complications, negligence or other factors unrelated to the initial crime. Of medical complications, negligence or other factors unrelated to the initial crime. So yeah, you would think it would be easy for somebody to be like dude shot in the face or whatever you know certainly an easy upgrade.
Speaker 1:You would think right and like in the case of the of the bowling alley thing I mean, they were all shot, yeah, it's my understanding and then set on fire, right. So in that case surely there was intent. But then, right, you could also.
Speaker 2:I could also see the defense saying well, they survived and they died because of an infection, because the doctor was incompetent, or or something, maybe because of the suit against the police arguing the the bit of police negligence that could interfere also with the getting that charge upgraded, or it could also be that, since they would have to, like, do another trial and stuff that the family just didn't want to go through, that or the prosecution just felt that they already had life. Yeah so what does?
Speaker 1:it matter, you know, especially if they don't think the evidence is there yeah okay, um, we have anything else to talk about on that? Um, about the case, I don't think so. Okay, that's all I got. Okay, um, and we didn't do a missing person. I didn't do a missing person. Um, so that leaves reading, watching, listening. Am I going first? Are you going first?
Speaker 2:you usually go first, okay, because I have a big mouth.
Speaker 1:No, okay, so wait, let's start with watching. Have you watched anything?
Speaker 2:uh, yeah, I didn't watch the one that I was telling you about that I wanted to watch, ready or not. I didn't watch the one that I was telling you about that I wanted to watch, ready or not. I didn't watch that one yet because it cost cash, money to rent, oh, um, but I I watched, uh, a horror movie that was on netflix I was trying to remember if it was Netflix or Hulu and it was called Talk to Me. It was called Talk to Me and it's a 2023, a24 release and it is kind of, yeah, I mean kind of it's like a possession-y kind of horror. I mean kind of it's like a possession-y kind of horror.
Speaker 2:It is not idle hands, but it's kind of reminiscent of that in a way, in that the vehicle of possession is this like ceramic hand, yeah, that they grasp and then they say like an incantation and, uh, it allows like a spirit to possess them. Basically, situations here. Here's kind of a picture. The situation kind of devolves from there, uh, as one might imagine. Yeah, yeah, I thought it was good, I thought it was pretty good, like fast-paced, and it kind of comes at you from all kinds of directions. It wasn't like a, it wasn't really a jump-scary type. Even I'm trying to think if it had jump-scares, maybe A couple, but it wasn't really like a jump scary type. But yeah, it was fast-paced, it was sinister, like you, yeah, kind of from the viewpoint of this person who is kind of devolving as they become more entrenched in this world of possession, kind of thing. So I can't really say much more than that without giving away spoilers.
Speaker 2:But, I thought it was worth a watch, mm-hmm so, and it's like Australian-based, oh yeah.
Speaker 1:Nice, did you watch anything else?
Speaker 2:Not really, actually, I didn't watch as much as I wanted to, and let's see we read To Be Devoured Did we talk about?
Speaker 1:that last time? No, I think we said we were going to.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we both read that. We did read it.
Speaker 2:I found it to be entertaining. I think, katie, you were maybe more grossed out than entertained.
Speaker 1:Yes, From the beginning. I have an issue with bugs and insects, so that the start of it, especially flying ones, so the start of it was.
Speaker 2:It is listed as an extreme horror.
Speaker 1:Because I didn't find it scary. I just found it gross.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that the scary part is to not know what's going on with yourself.
Speaker 1:Yes, that is a scary thing. That is something that I do fear is to be that kind of mental unawareness. Yeah, yeah, to not know your own mind, yeah, that scares me, exactly.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So that to me was the horrifying thing. Yeah, for sure. But yeah, there are quite grotesque bits. I mean it's real short. Yeah, it's not even 90 pages. I don't think I. I mean it's real short, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's not even 90 pages. I don't think I think my book. It was like 80-something.
Speaker 2:So if you don't get grossed out easily, yeah, if you don't mind body horror. Yeah, Then that's one to check out. I also read Walk Among Us. It's a vampire anthology of three novellas by Genevieve Gornacek, Cassandra Caw and Caitlin Starling.
Speaker 1:How was the Cassandra Caw? Because you and I have not had great time with her.
Speaker 2:I thought it was okay. Yeah, however, I will say it was my least favorite out of the three stories.
Speaker 1:Hmm, how does it hold up to her other books?
Speaker 2:uh it, it was much more realism based, okay. So, yeah, I thought I thought it was pretty good. Yeah, um, I liked. It's hard to say what I liked about it without again giving away spoilers, because these are just little novellas. Yeah, there's not much to them yeah, um, but yeah, overall, I gave the whole thing four stars and, yeah, I would recommend it. Caitlin starling is one of my favorite authors. She wrote the luminous dead. That's like one of my all-time favorite horror books.
Speaker 1:The luminous dead is that? Is that, an underwater one At times? At times it is both land and sea. It's amphibious.
Speaker 2:It's an off-world, it's set in like a dystopian, far future, distant planet. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think you've told me about it. Yeah, it's kind of not a great planet, kind of similar to how you see whatever like alien future portrayed Like everything's very industrial and not very great and a lot of the resources are in caves and this person. It's really quite a closed story. There's only only like two characters. There's a, the protagonist, who is the cave diver and who's been hired to do this cave dive that is supposed to pay a lot of money and and the caves are also full of toxic gas, so she, she also has to live in like this suit that does all of her stuff for her.
Speaker 2:Like there's a what are those things called that like for your poop Ew?
Speaker 1:She has to get one of those too, and she like cannula.
Speaker 2:That's what it's called. I could have gone my whole life without knowing that, and she also like whatever feeds herself, like directly into, like a port in her stomach with this stuff so already, right, that's bad.
Speaker 2:She's stuck in a suit in a cave on some strange planet and there's also bits of the cave that are flooded. Yeah, and and the the person, her mentor and guide is untrustworthy. And, yeah, she finds out that this is a much more dangerous mission than what it was originally proposed to be, and we're also not sure. There's also a cave monster thing. So there's a real cave monster thing. And then, uh, she starts to think that maybe she's not alone in the cave. Oh, it's really good, highly recommend. I. I think I recommended that once on like horror subreddit and somebody had the gall to tell me that it was not horror. I'm like, excuse me, it's space horror.
Speaker 2:There is such a thing as genre blending well, and it has it has, right, right, any fan of alien can tell you that but like it has all of the elements that I think are the most squeamish, right, yeah, like you're in a cave, you're underwater, and like there's this very real body horror element, because she's in this suit, yeah, that she relies on and it gets a bit icky at times, yeah, and also there's a psychological element, because she starts to not know what's real and what's not real.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so yeah, I don't understand people who can't see that genres can have multiple, exactly Aspects, because I mean Alien.
Speaker 1:I would not classify that as sci-fi. To me that's a horror. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:The first one certainly is. Some of the subsequent ones get more action-y. The new one is pretty horror-y, yeah, so I do recommend the new one. You've got Hulu. You should watch it. Maybe it's called Alien Romulus Okay.
Speaker 1:Did you watch or read anything else? Was it for you? Did you listen to anything?
Speaker 2:yeah, I, I, uh, I I also read, like I said, that seraphina book, uh, by rachel hartman, the fantasy one that I was telling you about. So I read that.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, and that's good as well well for the listeners, because they weren't party to a conversation, if you, if you like fantasy, and dragons, dragons, if you like dragons. These dragons, like I was telling Katie earlier, which you all were not privy to in that conversation, they're kind of Vulcan-esque in that they eschew excess of emotion. They're very grounded in reason and science and order and in fact, uh, displays of excess emotion or excess whatever humanity type features, is illegal in their society.
Speaker 1:They are dragons that transform into humans too so if that's something that interests you and there it sounds like there's like a political drama aspect to it as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there is a political drama aspect to it, for sure, and there is half dragon, half human people who are illegal to exist, but they exist nevertheless. And so, but it's not like a, you're not, you're not gonna get like a horny dragon, human. It's not romantic, y'all Trist type situation, no.
Speaker 1:Rachel has succeeded in finding a non-romantic fantasy there is. There is a romance in it, but, like I said, it's sidelined.
Speaker 2:Exactly, perfect yeah.
Speaker 1:It's not the focus.
Speaker 2:The story is perfect, but the, although it's not the perfect, the story is perfect, but the although it's quite good that, but the the level of romance aspect is perfect for what I want in my fantasies, like I. Like I was telling katie I I I'm okay with reading some romance. I read some romance sometimes, but but I don't. I have discovered I don't like romanticism, because I feel like all the romance tropes and things interfere with the fantasy story, which is what I'm here for, right, and so I don't. I don't need to be checking off.
Speaker 1:So it's heavy on the romance romance romance part of the romantic scene.
Speaker 2:I'd rather, you know, learn about the dragons and their whatever magical systems and all these things, then have like a chapter-long sex scene, basically you're not into the smut sometimes, sometimes, I just don't want it mixed up with my dragons and my fantasy you don't want to read about dragons. I don't want my dragon I don't want my dragons and my fantasy to be interrupted by this.
Speaker 1:That's what I don't want um, is there anything else you read? You started the steinbeck. We're reading together.
Speaker 2:Yes, I started East of Eden. I also started the sequel to the Serafina book. All good, yeah, so we're reading both of those simultaneously and, yeah, that's it for reading. I hope to watch some more movies the next couple of weeks or so, but we'll see. Yeah, I just have to resign myself that I'm probably going to be watching them alone, because Jade is not a fan of the movies so much. Whenever I would turn on a movie. They're like you're watching a whole ass movie, even if they've been watching some kind of gaming stream for the past three hours.
Speaker 1:So they watch gaming streams rather than movies.
Speaker 2:Gaming streams or political commentary streams. They like a show, they'll watch a show with me Even if sometimes we watch a few episodes of a show, that would constitute the length of a film they seemed good with um death of a unicorn. Yeah it's yeah, they were okay with that.
Speaker 1:They were telling me afterward they were like well, that's when I guess I need, as a theater, to watch a movie I you know I like movies, but since covid I have found that the only way I can sit through a movie and only a movie and not do other things is to be in a theater. Yeah, it's the only time I'm not glued to my phone or feel like I need to be while watching something yeah so I I understand they're easy days.
Speaker 1:I'm watching the movie on my phone yeah, well, that that would help if that's the only way to see it. Yeah, yeah but yeah.
Speaker 2:So I mean, there's hardly a movie that I can get through without having to pause it, right? So that kind of sucks, yeah, but kid life yeah. And then it seems like as soon as I put on something like an R-rated movie or whatever, even like my kids have not been bothering me like for a while.
Speaker 1:They suddenly, They'll just come in. They'll be like what are you?
Speaker 2:doing Mom, what are you watching?
Speaker 1:They have a sixth sense. Yeah, they really do. Yeah, so let's see. Well, I went on a whole escapade for the one movie I attempted to watch last week, so I listened to a podcast about horror books. Yeah, called Books in the Freezer and the host and the guest. The theme was doppelganger fiction and movies. Surprisingly they did not bring up Doppelganger, the movie yeah, which you watched, which I watched or thought I'd watched, like 25 years ago, but I put it on because I saw that it was free, I think on one of the streaming services.
Speaker 1:I have and I don't remember any of it no, I remember drew barrymore, but I remember nothing else about it does drew barrymore have a doppelganger in the movie.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah is it played by? Or that is the doppelganger played by drew barrymore? Also okay because I was like like nobody looks like. Yeah, no, not even drew barrymore also.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, because I was like like nobody looks like yeah, no, not even drew barrymore, except for, except for her like whatever, like great grandma or somebody yeah, yeah, yeah, well, even her mom's in that movie and she doesn't look like her mom at all. But yeah, I mean I, because I'm addicted to my phone, which I'm working really hard on removing myself from all addicted to our phones.
Speaker 2:In fact, right now I'm looking up to Barrymore's great-grandma because I saw a picture of her a while back and she looks a lot like her.
Speaker 1:But anyway, I had thought about that movie for years, ever since I thought that I saw it, and so I pulled it up and I watched it, and it turns out I don't remember ever seeing it. It's her grandmother, not her great-grandmother, yeah.
Speaker 2:I can see the resemblance, Like she looks different, but she also, like, kind of looks like her.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's definitely a family resemblance there, but anyway. So I don't know if I'd recommend the movie. If you can, if you like horror from the 90s Sometimes and it's not very good, then you'll like the movie, yeah. Or if doppelgangers are just the idea of doppelgangers freaks you out and that's what you want to watch, then I would recommend it, because doppelgangers are one of my big horror scares. It it's partly because I one of the things that I fear the most and that irritates me the most is if I'm not being believed, and that is the whole thing about a doppelganger. Is that right? They make people not believe you.
Speaker 2:It does bother me to not be believed a lot. Yeah, um, probably more than is reasonable.
Speaker 1:Me too. Me too, I have a. I have a. Have a really difficult time with that.
Speaker 2:I hadn't thought about doppelgangers that way, but thanks for that.
Speaker 1:Sorry, honestly, I hadn't either, until I listened to the episode and then the woman, the guest, was saying something like that and I was like you're right. That is what makes the doppelganger scary is that it wipes out. You right, you're still alive, but you don't exist, yeah because they have taken over, yeah, over your life yeah, scared the yeah, so I attempted to watch that.
Speaker 1:I did not. I mean, I got all the way through it, but I was doing other things, including folding laundry, which I rarely do, so you know what that meant, what that means, I guess. Anyway, so I watched that and I listened to that episode and somehow I don't want to say that I've gotten over my reading slump, but I will say that I've read two books in the last week. Yeah, that's awesome over my reading slump. But I will say that I've read two books in the last week. Yeah, um, both non-fiction. I read reasons not to worry. So if you're interested in stoicism and how to apply it to modern life, I recommend that book.
Speaker 1:And, um, what was the other one I read? Oh, yeah, earth to moon. I finished that one. I think I mentioned it last time which, holy shit I the amount of yelling I did at that while I was driving at her mother uh, father too, but mainly her mother was. It was a lot. Now we know how to make katie yell. What, talking about the chick's abusive mother, shitty parents, yeah, well, I mean, it's not even like. Did you read the?
Speaker 2:britney spears one. No, speaking of shitty parents. No, I don't usually like celebrity stuff yeah you know um well, see, I didn't either really, and I don't know, I was just like so invested in, like whatever the story of of Brittany and the what was that thing over her, like where her conservatorship, conservatorship, yeah, coverture is a type of marriage, sorry. When she finally got to tell her story, I was like, well, I have to listen.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I don't have any interest in that. Yeah, the whole time I was just like oh, moon honey, run away. Yeah, leave, leave, and I think part of what bothered me. So we all know that I am not a particularly forgiving person. Once you have wronged me, yeah, I'm done with you yeah and moon is moon. Unit is um, very forgiving and very loving and I appreciate that. But also I wanted to kind of shake her and be like you know she doesn't deserve your love and your forgiveness to an extent but yeah, yeah, but in the end she seems to be okay.
Speaker 1:And then the way her two younger siblings treated her at the end, just so I, I enjoyed that it. It enraged me, but also I am in awe of people who can do that. Yeah, because again, that is not me. Yeah, that is one of the things.
Speaker 2:I work on. It's good to forgive, but at the same time like don't let yourself get walked over.
Speaker 1:Let's see. Okay. So I watched Doppelganger and I listened to Earth to Moon and I read Reasons Not to Worry Again. Highly recommend that one. I recommend Earth to Moon as well. I was just agitated.
Speaker 2:I would probably if it pissed you off. It would piss me off.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's just yeah, so I read those. I've started listening to Stephen Fry read his version of Greek myths called Myths, highly recommend. He's hilarious and it makes it highly accessible, like I've always liked Greek myths, but a lot of times when you read them they're written in such a way that it's like it's meant for college.
Speaker 1:Right or for school, of course you know, and this is like like this is intellectualism, yeah, but this is uh, it's accessible and it's fun. Probably not for small ears, though he does get a little dirty. Of course, I would expect it is Stephen Fry, but it is a lot of fun. And I just found out he did the Odyssey.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And even though you and I both talked about how we hate the Odyssey, I think I might actually listen to that for him. Yeah to hear. And then I'm also reading, still reading the Siren's Call, and I started what is called an autobiography, but I don't know if it really is called the Years by Annie Arnoux yeah, who's a French writer, but that's what I've been reading and listening to and watching. Awesome, and that's it. Oh, let me go grab the books. Oh, I'll actually just let me look it up we have a crime book?
Speaker 1:we do have a crime book. We mentioned it last time.
Speaker 2:But I mentioned it, remember. So if you didn't remember, don't feel bad okay it's called.
Speaker 1:Okay, it's called the poisoner's handbook murder and the birth of forensic medicine in jazz age, new Age, new York, by Deborah Bloom, b-l-u-m. And that will be two episodes from this one. So if things get out the way they should, then it will be in one month's time, right From this Wednesday. So I guess that's it. You have anything to add? Um, no, so I guess that's it. You have anything to add? No, so please like subscribe. Download. If you want. You can reach out to us on our socials, which are all in the show notes. We also have an email. Please email us with questions or suggestions, okay, so, yeah, like subscribe all that good stuff. We really appreciate it and we will talk to you next time. Bye.
