Details Are Sketchy
A bimonthly true crime podcast, in which two friends share an unsolved disappearance or unsolved case, a crime they're most intrigued by, and talk all things true crime.
Details Are Sketchy
Call Me Now: The Rise and Fall of Miss Cleo
Life has been lifing the past few weeks, including a death in the family, so Rachel is taking the lead this week. She is telling us all about former psychic, Miss Cleo. There is no missing person again, but as always, we chat about what we've been reading, watching, and listening to.
Our next book is Deborah Blum's "The Poisoner's Handbook: Murder and the Birth of Forensic Medicine in Jazz Age New York." We will be discussing it in the next episode.
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How do I start? Oh, that's right, I'm Kiki and I'm Rachel, and this is Details Are Sketchy, a true crime podcast, and Rachel and I are both sick today. Yep, primarily because my grandmother passed away this past week and I was also getting work done on the house and so I just didn't have the um ability really to one million research. Understandable, yeah, um, so we apologize for that.
Speaker 2:Rachel's turn is also again because, no, we don't apologize for that.
Speaker 1:No need to apologize okay, well, I'm not sorry then, uh, but no, I we do. We haven't been keeping up with what we say we're going?
Speaker 2:no, it's. It's not because we stopped caring about missing persons. No, it's for other reasons.
Speaker 1:Yeah, life just keeps life. In this past year especially, since. September. Yeah, yeah, anyway, so no missing person. Rachel is also going to do the main one today.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna do the main one and I decided that I didn't feel very murdery this time around. So I have picked a violence-free well 99.99% violence-free crime and it's kind of a story, if you will, I guess. And we're going to do Miss Cleo, the TV psychic. Nice yeah. So what do you remember about Miss Cleo Katie?
Speaker 1:What do I remember about Miss Cleo? Well, I remember the commercials Not very well, but I do remember her, but I think mostly because my dog's name was Cleo. So, I remember that. Yeah, I remember she was a psychic. I asked you to call her and she'll tell you about your future. I think, specifically love would be the main one, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was a big one for her, yeah, yeah, she had like that classic catchphrase call me now.
Speaker 1:Yeah With her, oh, that's right, she did have an accent.
Speaker 2:Accent yeah, yeah, and she had, like usually, like a little headband. Right and some like cowry jewelry, yeah, and some colorful outfit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, she looked like the stereotype of a psychic.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Now would you be surprised if I told you that Ms Clear was not? Jamaican. Well, no, yeah, I don't know if I still want to do this part, but I was going to ask you to. I guess I am doing it, but more more, a little bit more caution on it. I guess it doesn't. You're like, what are you talking about, rachel? Like if you think you could do like a fake accent and like keep it up, like, and if so, I know, and if so, what would it be?
Speaker 1:No, I couldn't do an accent at all.
Speaker 2:I can do some accents, but don't think I can keep them up, and you have to get into that mindset.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you'd have to be a really good actress or actor.
Speaker 2:This is my accent that I'm doing now. Now imagine doing that accent the rest of your life.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And yeah, that's Miss Cleo. Um, it's oversimplifying some things, so we're gonna talk about that. So everybody remembers the ads almost all of us, if you're a millennial yeah, or a gen z. Uh, maybe you remember yeah well gen X would probably remember Gen. X. Yeah For sure, baby boomers. A woman with a thick Caribbean accent, promising to tell us our future, if only we call. She's wearing a turban and in the background of the ad it's like a blur of like pinks and purples and shit like that yeah.
Speaker 2:And she tells us we will be amazed, if only we call. And it cuts to shots of her turning over a tarot deck, accurately predicting the father of someone's baby or who cheated on who. She was like the Maury of psychics.
Speaker 1:Basically. That's funny right, took me a second to get the reference, but yeah, yeah uh.
Speaker 2:so what we may not know is that miss cleo was, or became, the figurehead of a billion dollar psychic phone network, a network like a pyramid scheme made up of hundreds of telephone psychics. But of course, the scheme came to an abrupt dissolution. And I was thinking, well, I don't know if I want to talk about that now, but I mean the thing that hit me. They're like, oh course they're fake psychics, yeah, yeah, because I mean, but that's me, you know, like I don't believe in psychics, right some people do some people, do I?
Speaker 2:scientific studies have not shown that humans have any psychic abilities or telepathic abilities. And we've certainly tried yeah, we certainly like in the 70s and stuff went through a phase where the government really wanted to tap into like potential, like espn even the 1900s they were.
Speaker 1:There were scientists who dedicated their careers to trying to find out stuff like that, and also ghosts.
Speaker 2:Because it would be like a powerful espionage tool and shit.
Speaker 1:Like there's so much you could do with it if it was real.
Speaker 2:It's just not there, Sorry folks. However, I'm sorry. If you believe that, then I'm not trying to shit on your stuff.
Speaker 1:I also shit on religion, so Rachel shits on anything that's not scientifically based. I'm an equal opportunity shitter.
Speaker 2:So I don't have a problem with like a fake psychic, because I'm like, of course it's fake yeah. You know, and I think people want to buy into that in new ways. You know Mm-hmm, and I feel like I'm used. Yeah, like you said, some people do, but a lot of people probably have like a little part of them in their mind that they're like this might not be real Sometimes it's just fun, like I went to.
Speaker 1:There's a psychic down Solano that I, my friend and I went to when we were, I don't know, 18, 19. Right, I didn't believe it, I didn't think she was predicting the future or anything like that, but it was kind of fun to head, just you know, spend like 10 bucks. It was 10 bucks at the time.
Speaker 2:It does seem like it would be fun, although I feel like I would ruin the fun, so don't bring it to the surface.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would not take you with me to get a psychic reading or a tarot reading.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I do think that there are people, and many people, who excel at being psychics or in the role of psychics who are great at extrapolating information out of a person without them knowing about it, and they are really good at reading body language.
Speaker 1:They're good at reading the nuances of someone's voice and reading between the lines of what people say, in order to draw out information from people that you may not know that you're giving them and feed it back to them, and so I think I think, um, most of us are actually really good at reading people and if we actually spent time to yeah, you know, really think about what somebody is conveying in terms of body, you could easily read them, yeah, easily maybe not I don't know if I could, maybe, or what they want.
Speaker 1:You know, like, yeah, somebody who's I hate the term desperate, but desperate for love, right, yeah, they kind of exude it. You know, yeah, um, someone who's down on their luck, kind of they have it, they exude that as well, right, you know, like there's just certain or maybe they don't even need to exude it, because they might even straight up tell yeah, that too, yeah, um, but yeah, but I just mean.
Speaker 1:Just mean in everyday life, like when you go into a restaurant. If you really look at people you can kind of see what their problems are. If you really give it like two seconds.
Speaker 2:I don't think I can do that, no, but that's pretty cool.
Speaker 1:You can. Well, I'm not saying I do it with any amount of accuracy, but I think now, I think the ones that give off the strong vibes you can tell Next time we're in a restaurant you have to do it, be like a psych.
Speaker 2:You know the guy from psych.
Speaker 1:I'm not that good. I'm not that good. That was a bit of an exaggeration. But I mean, like the what, the ones that give off the strong I don't want to say vibes, but they just there's just an air about them. If you look for just a few seconds, you can kind of see that, because they sit a certain way and they have a certain facial expressions and it's hard for them to especially the eyes. It's really hard for you to hide your emotions in your eyes.
Speaker 2:Maybe Katie should have been a cop you could interrogate.
Speaker 1:I'm way too gullible. I'd be like, oh yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 2:Maybe Miss Cleo should have been a cop.
Speaker 1:Maybe Maybe, maybe I should have been a psychic Right.
Speaker 2:Very true. Well, we can start now. Call our psychic line First. Three minutes free no, I would feel minutes. No, I would feel terrible, I would feel terrible yeah, a lot of people did um okay, so we're gonna get into that as well. And also the reason that I'm like I don't really have problems is, I mean, like it is exploitive right, certainly to a degree, and the way that this network did it was quite exploitive right, um.
Speaker 2:But I'm like this is really not different from like televangelism and stuff like that and they like exploit people out of their money and they're flying around in lear jets and shit yeah there's people out there who's like, oh you know, whatever, joel austin is like so close to christ or whatever, yeah, uh. So anyway, that's the other thing that I was like. You know, I don't think that this is worse than any other thing but, um, but yeah, the way that they did it was exploitive.
Speaker 2:And the third thing that I thought is I wonder if this would have been an issue like now, because I feel like so many business models are based on scamming.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, also, it would be different. It wouldn't be on TV, it'd be online. I mean, there are so many people on YouTube.
Speaker 2:That's true. They might not even be talking to people. They might be talking to AI or something.
Speaker 1:Some of them are definitely AI, for sure, but don't ask me how I know I find some of their voices really soothing, that's why I listen to them. The AI voices, like real people do Tarot readings and psychic stuff.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I remember. I know you watch those videos.
Speaker 1:Not all of them, but there there are a few that just they have a wonderful voice. I wish they did something else with it and I just find it soothing. So when I'm anxious I'll put on one of their videos.
Speaker 2:So, uh, ms Cleo was born You're Ray Dell Harris on August 12, 1965 in Los Angeles, california. Her parents were Elisa Teresa Hopus and David Harris. We know that she attended a Catholic boarding school, like an all-girls school, in Alhambra, california, and although she would later claim to have attended the University of Southern California, there is no record of her enrollment there under her birth name or any of her aliases, which she had a few. I'm sorry. What was her birth name? Again, uri Del Harris.
Speaker 1:Okay, I thought it was like Sheila. For some reason I was like you can't have a second Sheila. No wonder she changed it, yuri.
Speaker 2:Well, and I can understand too, because, like right, cleo rolls off the tongue a lot easier than Yuri yeah, and I think that it's something that might stick in somebody's mind.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because it's a name people know, but it's also got a little bit of that mystique still Because there aren't that many Cleos out there. It's a name people know, but it's also got a little bit of that mystique.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Because there aren't that many Cleos out there. Yeah, very true. So she was known under several aliases, including Reep Harris and Cleo Millie Harris. In the early 90s, Uri got involved in a black arts movement in Seattle and she went to work at the Langston Hughes Performing Arts Center there. During her short time there, she produced and performed in a few plays.
Speaker 1:All that kind of black arts.
Speaker 2:Not like black magic.
Speaker 1:That's what I thought, because we were talking about psychics and shit. So I was like, aren't that black people? Yes, I get that now I get that now. Well, I mean again, we were talking about psychics. It's kind of a natural leap I get it, I get it.
Speaker 2:Where was I? One of the plays was called For Women Only and it featured Uri playing a Jamaican woman named Cleo Um. Uri's colleagues who had known her at the time said she did not naturally have a Jamaican accent, nor did she ever claim to be Jamaican. The other plays she produced there were titled Summer Rhapsody and Supper Club Cafe. After the last play, supper Club Cafe, was a flop, she abruptly left Seattle, leaving debts that she accumulated from the play and the cast and crew unpaid. She apparently wrote letters to all of the cast and crew, um like, basically ious, and detailing the amount she owed each one. Uh, but she claimed at that time that she had bone cancer and that she would be unable to make good because of medical bills and she basically skipped out now.
Speaker 2:I mean it's up for debate, but like I feel like maybe she didn't intend to like scam them you know what I mean?
Speaker 2:like seemed like she planned to pay them out of the profits of the play. That didn't happen, right? She didn't have it and she was like, how do I get out of this? Mm-hmm, Because I feel like there's not other instances where it's like, oh, she's scamming people over and over again, Right, We'll see. We'll see that, even though, of course, we think of the psychic knife order thing as a scam. But we're going to come to find out that Ms Cleo is basically just a spokesperson for the company.
Speaker 2:Okay, so there were multiple phone and psychic networks floating around in the 90s and early 2000s, but the one Ms Cleo would go to work for was the Psychic Advisors Network, also known as the Psychic Readers Network. This network was started in 1993 by owners Stephen Fadere and Peter Stolz. In 1997, Uri Harris popped up in Florida working for the Psychic Readers Network. According to an interview conducted in 2012, it was her sister who encouraged her to go into the business. At that time, Harris adopted a Jamaican accent and utilized this persona for her telephone and tarot card readings. And so I read some articles and I watched a documentary about it, and there is an article that's called from the New York Times, like I worked for the psychic hotline that Miss Cleo, that's a better name than that, but basically that's the gist of it and I think that one of the the person who authored that was also popped up in the documentary a few times.
Speaker 2:But, he said that he worked for it for them for like just like a month or so and, uh, that he he worked some people worked in a call center, but he worked from home and he said the interview was just really easy, really brief, and other people worked for them, so that too. They were basically like here is a warm body, here's a phone, and basically they gave them like a little handbook, they gave them a tarot deck and they basically implied like you're faking it yeah, right there is never any kind of analysis of like determined whether or not the person had real psychic abilities.
Speaker 2:Right um, the name of the game was let's keep these people on the phone as long as possible. Right, because you make your money. Yeah, exactly. And so, uh, he said he would dial in from home, from his landline, like you dial in to whatever the network, and then, like you, hang up your phone, basically, and wait for calls to come in. And he liked it because you can work whatever hours, he would like, work at night and like on top of his other jobs that he had.
Speaker 1:It was a 90s early-aught side hustle.
Speaker 2:And so that's what Ms Cleo was doing at first as well, and he also said that when you do it, that most people adopt a persona. Yeah, he said that he often adopted like a southern lady persona.
Speaker 1:He said people liked.
Speaker 2:like responded better to women and they responded better if he had an accent.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I see that on YouTube. Yeah, there aren't that many male tarot readers. Why am?
Speaker 2:I admitting this one go for it um, that is an.
Speaker 1:It's just an interesting point, like why would we believe women over met I the way I just answered my own question? Never mind, I'm just thinking about it.
Speaker 2:Where was I? She adopted that persona in the late 1990s and the Psychic Readers Network was desperate for anything to make their agency stand out from the crowd. Uri Harris first appeared on a late-night infomercial in her Miss Cleo persona and what she said is that in an interview, like at first, like she was seeing the ads and the ads were not very good. They had like a blonde, white lady doing them and it was just kind of stale. And you know, she like knew some people like in the network and she was like this is not very good. Oh, what she was like in the network and she was like this is not very good. Oh, what she said was not very good is like they were doing like the tarot readings, but it was all wrong.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And since she actually knew how to read the tarot yeah.
Speaker 2:She at first, like, was just advising them on, like, how to do it, right, right. And then on one of the nights they had her appear Mm-hmm, and she was a massive hit. Yeah, she claimed to be a jamaican shaman and at that time the network's website had her bio listed that she was born and had grown up in trelawney, jamaica. When miss cleo basically went viral before viral was a thing um, the psychic readers network adopted her as the face of their organization. Uh, they started. She started appearing in multiple commercials uh, basically all their commercials and you know she was. She went on talk shows, the. They started using her face as the face of their organization, sending advertisements and emails in her name, using her face. Some of the advertisements sent by email. Also, some of the TV spots Ms Cleo used would advertise a quote-unquote free tarot reading Okay, wait, hold on, let's play one of these commercials.
Speaker 1:I just looked it up.
Speaker 2:Go for it If you've never had a reading from a real psychic. Try us right now for free. Your father had a stroke at a young age did he not Right.
Speaker 1:Right, right.
Speaker 2:Yep. So yeah, people love her and the thing is too that she did do like those readings and stuff, live, yeah on tv, um, and everybody who knew her said that she was a very talented psychic or whatever some of them believe that she was a genuine psychic. Uh, other people seem to believe that she. You know, like I said, just read people really well but whatever it was, she had a gift for it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um, or those people were also hired to no.
Speaker 2:No, because these were people who were, who were in her life after after words no, I mean the reader, the people she was reading live, that's also possibly true, that's. But people. But what? I'm uh? But people who knew her said yeah, she read for them, or read for people that they knew as well said that she was really good at it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it was like uncanny her ability. Customers who believe they were calling in wait where was I? Oh, yeah, Okay. So the advertisements they would often advertise a free tarot reading like call now for your free reading. Customers believe they were calling in and they were going to speak to miss cleo herself and, of course, they end up speaking with one of the many people who were working for this network, not miss cleo, right?
Speaker 2:one of them said that. Like that, one of the other uh employees for the network said that like, sometimes they would be like be like where's Miss Cleo, is Miss Cleo here? And they would like put the phone down and like pretend to be like looking for Miss Cleo and, like you know, they said that throughout the time a lot as well.
Speaker 2:And they'd be like, oh, looks like she just stepped out for lunch or something like that. They would get one of the many employees of the Psychic Readers Network who worked either from a call center or from home utilizing a script, script, like I said, a strip, utilizing a script and instructions to keep the callers on the phone for as long as possible. What the callers didn't know is that it was only the first three minutes of the call that were quote-unquote free.
Speaker 1:Well, why would they think that the whole thing would be?
Speaker 2:free. Well, because it didn't explicitly state that. I know, but wouldn't you think you would think?
Speaker 1:You would think, but I mean, I was a teenager and even I knew.
Speaker 2:Many people did not think.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and time was spent collecting that free time was spent with them collecting the caller's information. So they were trained to use up that free amount of time. Yeah, and then they would send the callers more ads. After the first three minutes, callers were charged $4.99 a minute. Jesus Christ, yeah, a fortune for the time. A fortune now. Yeah, it is a fortune. Now, too, you could watch a whole-ass movie for that on Prime or whatever. That's true, you could watch like a newer movie for that.
Speaker 1:Not in the theaters, but like, no like on Prime or something.
Speaker 2:I knew what you meant. I just wanted to clarify for our listeners in case they're like no way you can.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, not in the theaters. Those days are long gone, indeed.
Speaker 2:Not only was it expensive, but many of the callers were lonely, scared or desperate. They probably needed some more substantive help, such as therapy, legal advice or financial advice, and were instead scammed out of up to hundreds of dollars, dollars. Yeah, miss cleo herself remained a viral sensation, with just about every tv owning household knowing her name. She made appearances, like I said, on talk shows. She was parodied by so many different comedians and comedy skit shows, including the chapelle show sn Mad TV. Well, of course, yeah.
Speaker 1:Is Mad TV still on? I don't know.
Speaker 2:Great question. Miss Cleo was a pop culture sensation In 2001,. The Psychic Readers Network put out a book titled Keeping it Real A Practical Guide for Spiritual Living, allegedly authored by Ms Cleo.
Speaker 1:Sorry.
Speaker 2:No, it is funny. And was it authored by Ms Cleo? No, no, it was not. So we're going to see more about that in a little bit.
Speaker 1:Anybody can write that shit. Yeah, can write that shit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, although prosecutors and past clients and employees of the Psychic Readers Network had been trying, somewhat unsuccessfully, to prosecute the Psychic Readers Network, it wasn't until a prosecutor in Texas named Ms Cleo herself as a main party in the case that it got enough publicity and traction to really stick. Not Texas, sorry Florida. I don't know why I wrote Texas traction to really stick, not Texas, sorry Florida. I don't know why I wrote Texas To really stick and succeed. That was in 2002.
Speaker 2:So psychic readers who had worked in the call center previously came forward to admit like there were no shamans there, there was no like like qualified psychics there, that all the interactions were scripted and that the hiring managers had heavily implied they were to fake it as long as they kept the clients on the phone as long as possible. Psychic callers made only between $12 and $0.24 in a minute. Yeah, so Miss Cleo herself only made $0.12 a minute, plus $1,700 a commercial and no benefits. So I was trying to figure out how much money that she made, but I couldn't find, like the internet doesn't know exactly how many commercials that she made yeah.
Speaker 2:So I did an estimate for if she did 30 and if she did 50. So if she did 30 she would make 51 000. If she did 50 it would have been000, which today would be about $150,000. But not that much considering they were making millions off of her.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and most of that, that's from the commercials alone. Or is that like the 12 cents and you're just saying it averages like eight hours a day? No, no.
Speaker 2:That's the commercial money. I didn't count the money that she made from being on the phone, but that would have been a maximum amount of $15 an hour if she was on the phone like for a whole hour.
Speaker 1:Well, that's better than we're doing. It is better than that.
Speaker 2:But not what you would expect for a celebrity.
Speaker 1:No, no, not at all. She should have been making way more than that.
Speaker 2:She was a salaried worker who happened to also just be the entire face of the organization and the individual most responsible for the business's success. Responsible for the business's success. The Florida prosecutor, aaron Cronenberg, admitted the only reason he had been able to name Ms Cleo in the lawsuit is that the Psychic Readers Network was sending out collection, tons of collection notices to people who said that they were only on the line for a few minutes and they were claiming a much longer time, or some people who swore that they had never even called at all. And one of those collection notices was signed, or more than one, but one that they used was signed Cleo, and that signature, which would turn out to not be a real signature, allowed her to be named. So suddenly the case had tons of national attention because of how viral Cleo was. Comedians and news anchors alike all dropped this same joke. She didn't see that one coming.
Speaker 1:God, yeah, let's not do the obvious one, guys Right.
Speaker 2:It's very hokey and they showed like in the documentary. They showed clips of tons of people saying basically the same joke over and over again.
Speaker 1:Yeah, God Cringe, as the Zoomers say, yeah you can think it, but maybe don't let it out of your mouth.
Speaker 2:Yeah, One talk show host who I watched her segment as she was interviewing the director of the documentary and she said that when she had to announce that news it was put into her script.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That joke? I don't doubt it. Of course, with all the additional publicity, it was a perfect opportunity for journalists to dig into her story and her background.
Speaker 2:And when they did, they uncovered all the personal lies and misinformation that Ms Cleo had spread Her past history of defrauding the Seattle Theater Company, that she had a string of aliases, that she lied about her education and possibly even her background and ethnicity. She had told everyone a different story about her background, that she had been adopted by Jamaican adopted parents, that she had been born in Jamaica and that her mother had brought her to the States, etc. Different versions of something like that. But it turned out her parents were not Jamaican at all and she had not been adopted. An expert on the Caribbean diaspora who appeared on the documentary admitted that, although she had stated earlier that she knew, the accent was obviously fake and she said any Jamaican would know that it was a fake accent, that Western law and Western culture depended heavily on legal documentation such as birth certificates, but that Caribbean people do see and recognize identity in different ways.
Speaker 2:Many other people, such as Yuri's friends and her lawyers, defended her Jamaican heritage or alleged Jamaican heritage and identity. One of her friends seemed to also imply that Miss Cleo was one identity that Yuri had or took on and that perhaps she may have had like disassociative identity disorder because she said that she had a few different personalities that would come out. One of them was a male personality named Maxmarie who was elegant, formal and she always spoke in metaphor and riddles, and the Max persona would come forward. Or one of these other personas would come forward when Cleo was overwhelmed, or would say she was overwhelmed by the spiritual world or maybe by attention and she needed a rest. And so it's possible that if she did have like dissociative identity disorder, that maybe the Cleo personality like just became her dominant personality.
Speaker 2:What did they say? Personality, yeah. What do they say? Uh, they said they would. Suddenly, when she, when she changed to one of her other personas, they would feel like suddenly this is a stranger in my home, like they would walk different, they would have different mannerisms, which does to me I mean not that I'm an expert or anything, but it does sound possibly like did, but then again it could just be really good acting, yeah, but like at that point in her life like what's she getting out of it? You know what I mean? Because she wasn't in the spotlight, this was just something that was happening like privately you know, and so I don't know why she would fake it.
Speaker 2:But I mean, I know that DID itself is like a controversial diagnosis, but I don't know.
Speaker 2:I would prefer to err on the side of believing people when it comes to talking about themselves and what their, their own, experience is.
Speaker 2:One thing, however, that her friends uh seem to agree on is that she was a deeply spiritual person, and many of them genuinely believed, like I said earlier, she had a gift or connection to the spirit world, that she was indeed a genuine psychic or, at the very least, that she was a highly sensitive and intuitive person who believed that her insights were a genuine spiritual gift.
Speaker 2:People who received readings from Ms Cleo herself were amazed and impressed by the insights that she had, and some of them believed that she gave them insights about themselves or their families, that they did not know themselves and that there was no way for her to have known, not know themselves and that there was no way for her to have known. Many people in her life did believe that she had a very difficult childhood, although she was tight-lipped about what may have happened to her. One friend reported that she had confided having considered suicide as young as age seven, and another friend has stated that she had a very challenging childhood, which she implied may have involved sexual assault, and I said those things could also be lies, of course, but unfortunately this kind of thing is so prevalent that I doubt it.
Speaker 1:I doubt that that's a lie.
Speaker 2:Yeah, of course. To bring it back to the lawsuits against the Psychic Readers Network, when Ms Cleo was deposed and her contract and her tax returns, everything was revealed. It was shown that the documents had gone out under her name, were forged. Under her name were forged. However, the company defended itself, saying that Miss Cleo's persona was their personal trademark and property. So not only did they ruin Miss Cleo's reputation and her career, but they also robbed her of the ability to continue making money using this persona that she was essentially living her life as every day, not to mention her future ability to make money. As Miss Cleo, her face was on all their advertisements and their merchandise, like Miss Cleo branded tarot cards and Ouija boards and her name went out, like I said, on their emails, on their collections, notices and official letters, but she never got paid royalties for any of that. Yeah, she was not on the company board. She was never involved in any decisions that the company made, not even the ones involving, like I said, her own likeness. So eventually, having uncovered this information, the Florida Prosecutes and the Federal Trade Commission dropped Ms Cleo's name altogether from the lawsuit and they only focused on the heads of the company, who the investigation revealed to be, like I stated earlier, two white guys by the names of Stephen Fetter and Peter Stoltz. Their operation was never in good faith to create a genuine psychic network, but, of course, to just make a bunch of money. Now, like I said before, I don't find this better or worse than, say, tv evangelists or religious networks. They're basically doing the same thing and don't get stopped because they can hide under the guise, as I wrote, of the most prolific religion. These two declined to Stephen Fetter and Peter Stelz declined to be interviewed for the Miss Cleo documentary. It seemed they've just gone on with their lives with little to no impact to their careers or personal well-being, which cannot be said of Ms Cleo.
Speaker 2:The company came to a settlement with the Federal Trade Commission to shut down the psychic hotline and they had to pay a $50,000 fine. They were forgiven $500 million in debt. They were forgiven $500 million in debt and ultimately the company was found to have brought in more than a billion dollars in profits. So the cushy CEOs were doing just fine. They raked in a billion dollars because of Ms Cleo and she herself made less than $100,000. Yeah, less than a hundred thousand dollars, yeah. So after the entire fiasco. Miss cleo kind of became a recluse for a few years oops, hang on. But she surrounded herself by friends and found family and they helped her drop her back out of her shell. Unfortunately, like I said, her all her later attempts to earn money basically off of the miss cleo name, um, or appear in any kind of semi-celebrity capacity.
Speaker 2:Then she would get sued by the psychic readers network, like she tried to appear in, like a local car commercial. Uh, she was like the face of benefit cosmetics, I guess for a short time. And uh, she also, uh, had some kind of deal that she was on like cinnamon her face was on a cinnamon toast crunch cereal but every time that something, she would get something like that, she would get sued and have to end it.
Speaker 1:So like even her, like actual face, not just the persona, the face.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean because, yeah, she, you know they would say, yeah, they own basically anything right or whatever. Like maybe she had completely changed her look, or something like that. But no, Like, of course, like she lived the rest of her whole life like that as Miss.
Speaker 1:Cleo. Okay, so wait. So let me, because I'm confused. So she would like appear in these commercials with, like the turban, yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay, I mean, that's how she dressed, that's how she dressed like every day.
Speaker 1:I thought maybe she was trying to do something like just. I mean, I know Cleo is herself, but I mean as herself, not what people would know her as.
Speaker 2:Well, she introduced herself at that time as Cleomilia Harris, but apparently that was still like the accent, the look, all the things they would say. This belongs to us. Yeah, even though, yeah, that was her everyday self, and so attempts to basically make money off of her celebrity were always thwarted. Yes, well, I could see that. Yeah, yes, well, I could see that. Yeah, however, she did, yeah, really find a big community. She really made a home within the Florida LGBTQIA plus community In 2006,. She came out as a lesbian and she became like a big advocate, like an activist for queer rights in Florida. She also, you know, I think, continued her personal, you know readings and stuff like that. Unfortunately, in 2016, she passed away from colorectal cancer at the age of only 53. At the time she passed away, she was not rich. There's no evidence of any riches having been accumulated. She was living with roommates. Like I said, having struggled with her career since her public downfall, however, it did seem like she had gone on to live a happy life and had a lot of friends around her.
Speaker 1:Well, that's good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what else did I want to say about that? Yeah, I just said that, like she didn't really get to, I guess, redeem her public name or public image during her lifetime. That is, I think, all I have on Miss Cleo.
Speaker 2:But yeah, like I had said about the scammy thing in the theater, since it didn't really seem like she went on to scam people you know, and so I don't think that that was like her whole shtick was being a con artist, um, although like it seemed like you know, with the psychic thing, but she was just like a patsy in that organization. So, yeah, it seemed like overall she was not a horrible person, um, and yeah, it seemed like she had a lot of joy in her life. So I'm glad that, yeah, I'm glad that, yeah, I'm glad that she had people who cared about her, and whether or not she was really Jamaican or not, I mean, although I can't speak for Jamaican people and how they might feel about that but I mean it seemed like she, that persona, was where she, like, found her home you know, and like it didn't seem to hurt anybody.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, that's all I got, okay interesting any thoughts?
Speaker 1:uh no, I think we kind of talked about them did that-hmm, did that go short? No One question, though. Maybe you don't know, did the company have her sign papers that say that they owned her persona? I don't know. Okay, yeah, and I. Because I would feel like that would be the way that they would be able to sue her.
Speaker 2:I mean, it seemed like that the courts seemed to side with the company?
Speaker 1:Yeah, they usually do.
Speaker 2:Maybe she did, or maybe it's just a case of corporate bias, Like she wouldn't have had anybody to really defend her or afford to defend her so well.
Speaker 1:I imagine it's probably hard to prove too like like baby ruth's, when you think of a baby ruth who do you think of baby ruth the baseball player? Yeah, he didn't have anything to do with it. And he sued the company for using his name. And the court said, uh, the company said no, we didn't name it after him. We named it after a previous president's daughter named Ruth, his youngest, or something like that. So that's where we get baby Ruth. And then the courts were like, okay, yeah, which is bullshit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's bullshit Like nobody's going to think, grover. Cleveland's daughter.
Speaker 1:No, no. So baby Ruth didn't get shit from that candy bar, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it seems like something like that. But yeah, I just thought it's crazy that like she can't just go out wearing whatever she wears and like talking however she talks, like every day of her life. You know, talking however she talks like every day of her life. You know, Like her friends said that, like there was never a time that she wasn't using, like the Jamaican accent and stuff, like it was her whole self. Yeah, regardless of whether or not it was authentic. Yeah, it became authentic to her Interesting?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that also is an interesting question, like if she had gone there there, let's say, she didn't have the persona of cleo, she just went on there as what was her name? Uri harris. Uri harris, yeah, would they have owned her?
Speaker 2:I don't know, you know, I don't know. But then again, if she went on as uri harris, then like nobody, nobody would have known who she was. Right, like if she just wore clothes like you or me and like dropped the accent, like who would know who she was?
Speaker 1:True, but I'm just saying in general yeah, like anybody.
Speaker 2:That's why I was asking you about, like rock star personas and stuff. Right, yeah, because, like you know, if, like whatever, richard simmons or whatever takes off all this makeup and whatever and walks down the street, yeah, I mean there's people who recognize him. But like a fraction, yeah, with the same people, yeah, would otherwise, yeah.
Speaker 1:So no, I just meant like it may not have worked that way if she went on that way, but if she went on that way, yeah, as uriah harris, and let's say it for argument's sake, it did work. Yeah, they then own.
Speaker 2:I mean she, she didn't do an interview in 2012 and that footage was used and she, you know, was her. She had the accent and she, you know, had like a head wrap and stuff and she said like my name is yuri cleo milia harris, otherwise known as miss cleo. Yeah, and I don't think, but then again, that was just an inner, like she wasn't making money off of that.
Speaker 1:So yeah, but but I don't think that's what I mean either. I mean like let's forget her, Like let's say you went on as Rachel Wilbur, no persona, just you as you are and you became famous and the company, whatever, would they own. You as Rachel Wilbur, not the persona you, Great question.
Speaker 2:I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. Yeah, and because Miss Cleo said that she wasn't putting on a persona, right, right, that that was her. Yeah, so yeah, valid question.
Speaker 1:I guess maybe that's celebrity too right Like, do celebrities own their own image?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, isn't that a fight that they're having right now with, like the AI and shit like that yeah.
Speaker 2:Um, okay, I mean, in Back to the Future or whatever, didn't Crispin Glover win a lawsuit against the Back to the Future people? However, when a lawsuit against the Back to the Future people because he was in the first movie right as Marty's dad, his young dad, and then he wasn't in the subsequent films but they dressed up another actor to look like him and he successfully sued for that, oh that's cool. Yeah, but I mean it's a different time. Yeah, yeah, but I mean it's a different time.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, I remember around that time people would ask me if I named Cleo after Miss Cleo. No, I did not. I named her after the band Letters to Cleo.
Speaker 2:That sounds like you.
Speaker 1:Why does it sound like me? I don't know.
Speaker 2:Just you know, it would be some like obscure-ish band or something like that, or an obscure-ish literary reference.
Speaker 1:Oh my god, am I that obvious?
Speaker 2:We hang out a lot, katie, that's true.
Speaker 1:I didn't think they were that obscure. They were in. 10 Things I Hate About you.
Speaker 2:No, no. But like I know, like the band, I know their music, but like I never remember their name. Maybe that's just me though.
Speaker 1:I played, I think the record was. I forget what the record was called, maybe Copilot, but I played that record over and over and over, and over and over again. Yeah, I don't know why I liked it so much. It's good, yeah, okay. So good, yeah, okay. So no missing person, did you want to say?
Speaker 2:anything else. I think that's all I have to say about Miss Cleo. I probably have more thoughts, but I can't.
Speaker 1:Think of them right now.
Speaker 2:I can't think of them right now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're both in a cold fog.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when I picked Miss Cleo, I thought it was going to be a little bit sillier yeah story than it was yeah, well, it's still kind of a silly story yeah, yeah it is, and I mean I mean it's lighthearted in that, like you know, I mean nobody really got hurt, even though miss cleo's reputation was ruined and stuff, she still had a happy life and yeah she had people who cared about her, so that made me happy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, what made you think of it? Um, I was looking. I I googled like silly crimes or top 10 silly crimes or things like that. I was looking around for something that that was more lighthearted because I knew that I wanted to do a non-murdery crime and when I saw Miss Cleo I immediately remembered her commercials and stuff and I was like okay, yeah, and I remember vaguely when she got sued yeah.
Speaker 1:I don't remember that at all.
Speaker 2:Maybe I wasn't in the country at the time but I, I always thought like it was her yeah thing, yeah, and even like these show clips in the news, like they sure seem like they. They skew the story that way. Yeah, like they would be like Miss Cleo's psychic network. Yeah, it really made it seem like she was the scammer.
Speaker 1:She was in charge. Yeah, what?
Speaker 2:was the year 2002-ish yeah.
Speaker 1:That it came tumbling down? Yes, okay, why didn't I know about that Interesting Guess? I was busy in college. Yeah, didn't have TV.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was in high school then.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was either in Hawaii or St John's. Yeah, no, I didn't go to St John's until 2003,. So Hawaii probably, or here in just oblivious.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, maybe it just wasn't something that, a story that caught your attention, yeah, but yeah. So when I saw that I that I was like, okay, I'll do that, oh yeah yeah, that's a good one.
Speaker 1:See, I was gonna go the other route and go like serial killer. Yeah, I guess that's how I deal with grief. I'm like let's see the worst in people. I'll cover that yeah.
Speaker 2:You were like I'm watching murder show.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Well.
Speaker 1:Okay, I guess the next bit is reading, watching, listening, all those things.
Speaker 2:What have you been up to?
Speaker 1:What about you? You usually go first oh do I usually go?
Speaker 2:first yes, that's me and my big mouth, I guess. So the only thing I watched, I think, since the last time was, like I said, reign of Fire, which I was feeling Jared Butler, okay Sorry, I was feeling like I wanted like a good dragon movie and I feel like you know, like I automatically think of Rain of Fire, yeah, yeah, and so I took a watch of that. Yeah, there's a lot of celebrities in there, yeah, I forgot about Jared Butler, all of them, bruce.
Speaker 1:McHale yeah, matthew forgot about Jared Butler, all of them. Christian Bale yeah.
Speaker 2:Matthew McConaughey.
Speaker 1:I completely liked him, alexander Sigg.
Speaker 2:I don't remember who the lady actress is. She looks kind of like Charlize Theron, but she's not Charlize Theron.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But she definitely had her moment around that time. It's like a tough action girl. I don't know, I don't remember. I could look it up, I guess, because it's not fair to name all those actors.
Speaker 1:No, leave out the chick. Yeah, you were in the mood for dragons.
Speaker 2:huh, yeah, yeah, you were in the mood for dragons, huh yeah. And then I listened to a story that had kind of similar vibes as well Isabella Scoropuko.
Speaker 1:Scoropuko.
Speaker 2:Huh, I don't know that name at all. Oh, let me look up the name of the. I looked up, I listened, I looked up. I don't know what I'm saying at all.
Speaker 1:You listened to a book.
Speaker 2:I listened to a book, one of those like audio theater books that they have on Amazon Audible Again, I mean it is the same thing, yeah. Dragon Day by Bob Pearl, so that kind of had similar vibes of like dragons are popping up out of nowhere and torching the world, basically, and it's told from the perspective of like a journalist who's going around interviewing people about what happened and how it happened and stuff like that. So it's got like an ensemble audio cast.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's fun. Yeah, are. Are any of the readers people we would know like? Are there any celebrities?
Speaker 2:um, let me read you the names here. Okay, okay, okay, so the narrators are hayley atwell, michael Chiklis, aldous Hodge, greta Lee, jimmy Simpson, christian Coulson, laura Kai Chen, brady Jenis Zeke, alton, christiane Seidel, alison Wick, sarah Haywood, wreck Mova, al Piper, anna Dillon and Lydia Kendall die.
Speaker 1:Well, hayley Atwell is an actress. Okay, she was in Mission Impossible. Oh, she's in the new Mission Impossible. Nice, she's in Agent Carter. Captain America, is that the um his girly, captain America's girly?
Speaker 2:I don't know.
Speaker 1:The Agent Carter. Is she Agent Carter? Let me look His girly, Captain America's girly, I don't know the the the Agent Carter.
Speaker 2:Is she?
Speaker 1:Agent Carter. Let me look Um Peggy Carter, yeah.
Speaker 2:Captain America's chick. So if you want a dragon-y story with an ensemble cast and Captain America's chick that has a rain of fire and a little bit with a little bit of how to train your dragon vibes, yeah, then yeah, I would recommend. It was easy, fun, yeah, listen.
Speaker 1:Were you not into Marvel? Huh, were you not into Marvel? The Marvel movies.
Speaker 2:Some of them yeah.
Speaker 1:I kind of got overwhelmed, oh okay yeah, that's why you were like I don't care, no, I, I liked them at first, but yeah it just there's so many of them.
Speaker 2:I was like I can't.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I stopped after the main ones yeah, I haven't seen any of the side stuff yeah, but uh, I did see the original captain, america yeah it's like the britishy chick, right, yeah, so the, yeah, the woman who basically yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, yeah her, you know what I mean. Basically, you're like, yeah, maybe we do hang out a lot, rachel.
Speaker 2:I know these things are falling out of my ears. Hang on, because I have a few more ones. I'm reading East of Eden. Did I mention that last time?
Speaker 1:Well, we both did, but you're still reading it.
Speaker 2:It's a honker, I'm still reading it Because I keep taking breaks, but I'm going to get back to it. Take your time, because I'm only about 40 pages in. So it's very entertaining, but like, I'm like, where's the like? Well, there is some murder in it. But I'm like I don't know, I guess maybe I need like a more modern voice sometimes. Yeah, to intersperse, yeah, because yeah, I mean I like the story, I don't find the prose to be too heavy, or anything like that, but I still like I'll listen to like three hours and then I need a break.
Speaker 2:So I've got about 10-12 hours left Now 25. So we're at the point of no return, for sure. And I also read mother thing. Did I tell you about that one?
Speaker 1:no, I don't think so. It's by. I mean I, I recognize the title Ainsley.
Speaker 2:Hogarth yeah, you'll probably. It was quite popular, I think last year. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and it is told from the perspective of this narrator, and her husband and her have been living with her mother-in-law his mom, and she has been struggling with borderline personality disorder, and she commits suicide. And things start to fall apart, though, when perhaps the mother-in-law comes back to haunt them. As we maybe see, the narrator is maybe not super reliable.
Speaker 2:Also love an unreliable narrator, so, yeah, it's fun um yeah, and explores, uh, you know, roles of women, mental health, yeah things, and our relationships to our mothers, yeah, so, yeah, it's a, it's a fun read. Um, it definitely gets unhinged. Um, I was like, okay, yeah, I saw it and well, I didn't completely see it coming, but I was from the first get-go I I was like I don't trust this bitch. So I was right in that, I guess. But yeah, I thought it was fun and worth a read.
Speaker 1:Yeah, did you listen to any podcasts podcasts or watch any movies? I?
Speaker 2:listened to one. I kept trying to listen to one episode of kim and kent stay alive, about the movie split, but I kept falling asleep. Yeah, so not the podcast fault, right, I was very tired. Yeah, um, I am reading another book now, which is the lamb by lucy rose, but I am not finished with that one yet. Did you watch any movies? Um, just rained a fire, like I said. Oh, that's right. Yeah, say that. Um, yeah, oh, no, I was going to say I was trying to get Jay to watch a movie with me the other day and they were like we'll watch it later, but then later we were both tired and we didn't watch anything, right?
Speaker 1:So what was the movie? Did you have it already picked out?
Speaker 2:No, I didn't have it already picked out oh gotcha, so I have a bunch of horror movies that I want to see.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we'll probably go see Sinners this week. Yeah, yes, okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that will be good. Okay, because I have been really trying hard to avoid spoilers on the internet, all right, and the internet keeps trying to tell me about it because I follow these horror pages and stuff like that and they're like Sinners, I'm like shh, so I try and scroll past, scroll past.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they were even talking about it, though in some of my groups that are not like horror-related or movie-related. I was like, excuse me, I didn't ask for this, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's huge. Yeah, it is huge yeah.
Speaker 2:So I'm trying not to form high expectations though.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because if your expectations are too high, Then it's going to fall flat. Exactly, no matter what?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, no, I don't have any expectations, yeah.
Speaker 2:I expect that there will be vampires my expectation is death of a unicorn. That's the base. This one doesn't seem like it's uh it's comedy and all.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, no, no, I was just kidding, because that's the most recent movie I've seen me too well, I mean in the theaters yeah, not um, let's see I haven't really read much I read.
Speaker 1:I think I'm halfway through less than zero by brett easton ellis. That's my purse book, so I pick that up page by page. It's to take me a while to get through. The only one I actually read and finished was Little Rot by Akwaeke Emezi. Good book, disturbing, kind of disturbing, but also not really disturbing. No likable characters at all. So up my alley Gritty. So again up my alley. Interesting, interesting, I well. I don't know what the author was actually trying to portray, but to me it was all about the, the badness or the rot, the ugliness that's within all of us, that most of us are quite good at keeping hidden or controlled, I should say um, but in the book, like the city itself is rotten, so it kind of seeps into the beings of everybody and so they all, no matter how good they try to be, they inevitably become rotted more than others.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And make poor choices, yeah, even sometimes against their will, or and also I would say, how the bad choices of others affect us and then make us against, almost against our will, make the bad choice.
Speaker 2:It's like when you put cucumbers in a brine and they can't help but turn into pickles there you go.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it was. It was a good book I highly recommend. I don't know if it's one of their best, because I haven't read any of the other ones. Um, it's my one and only, but I really liked it yeah, it sounded really interesting, yeah so I think, yeah, that's it. I didn't really watch anything either. Um, yeah, I haven't watched anything, haven't listened to anything. Yeah's it. It's been pretty boring.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've been listening to a lot of music, but not anything new Like just my playlist.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've listened to music, but nothing new. Yeah like, whatever playlist pops up on Spotify, it's some sort of like. Usually it's got Sublime or Red Hot Chili Peppers or Old Rock yeah. Or Old Punk yeah, the Occasional Country. It chili peppers. Or old rock yeah, uh. Or old punk yeah, the occasional countries. It's really weird. There will be a playlist where it's like sublime, red hot chili peppers yeah, oasis, and then all of a sudden some newish country song pops on what is happening?
Speaker 2:I think it's. I think it's weird. Like I have my whatever. I am usually listening to music on like Amazon Music or something, not because it is anything special, but because they offer me like a three-month trial and then I got stuck in it. Yeah, you know how these things go, yeah. But like I have like a whatever favorited list where it just plays all the songs I have favorited, but like sometimes, like I'm like there's like I don't know a lot of songs in there, like 400 or something like that.
Speaker 2:But sometimes it will play like the same song over again. I'm like what, yeah, like the same song over again. I'm like I'm like what, yeah, like uh, it played, yeah, played, uh, raise your glass by pink, which I really love that song. But then, like like 20 minutes later or something, it played again. I was like wait a second. At first I was like just jamming out and not thinking about it and I was like wait a minute.
Speaker 1:I just listened to you. Did you maybe like it on, like two different albums, or something.
Speaker 2:No, it was the same. It was the same one. Interesting, Because sometimes I will like if there's like a live version or whatever. Yeah, that I also enjoy Mm-hmm, then I'll like the song over multiple things albums, but not in this case. It was. It was the same, like picture popped up and everything yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:For some reason spotify's been really big on um playing beastie boys. Is it right to Yep that song over and over?
Speaker 2:and over again.
Speaker 1:And what's one of the popular ones by Muse. I don't know, but it's a song that I never liked. I have never liked it. I've never liked it on Spotify yeah, I don't know why it keeps playing it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I skip it every time. But it's like are you sure? Are you really really, really sure? Yeah, I'm like, yeah, yeah, I don't want to listen to this song.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I still can't get those Amanda Palmer songs off of my list, Remember? Yeah, every time one pops up I'll click the down thumb or whatever, and I unhearted them all of them. But as they still occasionally pop up, yeah, so they can get me sometimes, because I'll be like, yeah, this song, and then I'll be like, wait a second, we don't listen to amanda palmer anymore, and then I have to go and down down thumb it and we'll skip it.
Speaker 1:But then they come back up, yeah, sneaky, like yeah, they're probably like you listened to so much amanda palmer last year, yeah, yeah, it's amazing what these programs pick up because, like uh, when I was driving grandma up to rio rancho for her medical thing, all right, she doesn't want to listen to red hot chili peppers. Yeah, she wants to listen for like red hot chili.
Speaker 2:No, she was like.
Speaker 1:She was willing to listen to like like dean martin or something like that, or the andrew sisters or whatever, and so I played those, but not very much, because she wasn't really that into it either. So there were like three songs Like maybe a Fred Astaire, not Fred Astaire, frank Sinatra, yeah, like a Dean Martin, melly Kalikimaka and one of the Andrews sister songs, and then from that day on, for like two weeks, those are the only fucking playlists that would pop up on Spotify.
Speaker 2:It was very weird, it didn't matter how much I searched for whatever else.
Speaker 1:Like I'm, like I don't want to listen to this. So I'll pick a Runaway the Runaways playlist or whatever, and I'll play all of it. And then Spotify's like no, we know you want to listen to the Andrews sisters, that's funny.
Speaker 2:yeah, so she didn't like to listen to music what you guys listen to nothing, she just complained.
Speaker 1:Yeah, she did what granny did best, yeah, which was to complain. Yeah, um, but I think when you're 88 years old, you can be allowed to complain, very true, yeah, you got years to complain about.
Speaker 2:I feel like complaining more. I look forward to that.
Speaker 1:Me too, I look forward to not giving a shit. Yeah, so like, subscribe, download. Follow us on the socials, both the podcast and our personal ones, although we are not great posters in any capacity.
Speaker 2:Yeah, or in any of those situations, I'm trying to get back up on that horse, yeah yeah, I plan on posting something later, but so yeah, so anyway, follow us.
Speaker 1:Download, review, all that stuff helps.
Speaker 2:Yep and Yep. And yeah, we hope you enjoyed this, maybe slightly less.
Speaker 1:Less murdery.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah Figure when life gets heavier. I want to go lighter, so All right, all right.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you all. We'll speak to you next time. Talk to you next time.
Speaker 2:Bye.
