Details Are Sketchy
A bimonthly true crime podcast, in which two friends share an unsolved disappearance or unsolved case, a crime they're most intrigued by, and talk all things true crime.
Details Are Sketchy
Defeo Family Murders (Amityville)
We're back! In this episode, Kiki tells us about the DeFeo Family Murders (the murders that kicked off the Amityville horror stories). There's no missing person again, but as always, we chat about what we've been reading, watching, and listening to.
Our next book: "Wack Job: A History of Ax Murder" by Rachel McCarthy James.
We're still working on putting episodes up on YouTube. We will announce it on Instagram and Facebook once we get the first one up.
Sources:
Amityville: an Origin Story episode 2
The Amityville Murders: Ronald DeFeo's Motive for Killing His Family Still Unclear (https://www.aetv.com/articles/amityville-murders-defeo)
Get in touch with us:
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Facebook: Details Are Sketchy - @details.are.sketchy.2023
Instagram: Kiki - @kikileona84
Instagram: Rachel - @eeniemanimeenienailz
Email: details.are.sketchy.pod@gmail.com
I'm Kiki. And I'm Rachel.
SPEAKER_00:And this is Details Are Sketchy.
SPEAKER_01:A true crime podcast.
SPEAKER_00:And we are here with a sort of Halloween episode. Kinda sorta.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. Be grateful for it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Hopefully we've gotten more on the ball. Okay. So forgive us. Also, we're eating a little bit. We're eating scones. And Rachel has a cupcake and I have a slice of cheesecake.
SPEAKER_01:We're eating our what is it? Eating our feelings. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:It has been a long road, y'all. Um, maybe we'll talk about it, maybe not.
SPEAKER_01:It's been a shitty year.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Be ready for or I am ready for it to be over. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Do you have a missing person? I don't rem if you recall.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, that's right. I thought maybe you were gonna look it up and then I realized you didn't. No, I didn't.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. That is strong.
SPEAKER_00:What's strong? Oh, the the alcohol. The alcohol. I gave Rachel some uh prickly pear margarita. So hopefully.
SPEAKER_01:Regular belligerent Rachel. We'll get drunk belligerent Rachel.
SPEAKER_00:Maybe she'll be less belligerent. Sometimes you get happy when you drink. That's true. Okay. So, um I'm gonna do the DeFeo family murders. Um, if that name sounds familiar, they are the family that was killed prior to the Lutz's taking over the Amityville house. Um, I'm not gonna do them, even though I think that is a crime. I think it was a hoax. Other people think it wasn't so much. Yeah. But even though some people know about the DeFeo family massacre beforehand, they tend to get lost uh in the lore of Amityville. So I decided to do theirs. It's gonna be short and sweet today. Amityville Rhode Island has become synonymous with horror, right? We've probably all seen at least one of the movies. There have been around 45 movies that I could find, and most people know at least the story, like I said.
SPEAKER_01:45.
SPEAKER_00:45 at least, at least. That doesn't include documentaries and it doesn't include the books. Yeah. So, of course, most people know the story of the Let's and their 28-day stay in the house. They either know it from the best-selling book, which I think has just been republished, uh, or the original movie or remake. But what gets lost or forgotten, as I just said, is the DeFeo family. And it's their murder and the subsequent trial. Does Charlie like carbs? Charlie likes everything. She will literally eat everything.
SPEAKER_01:Hey, sweetie.
SPEAKER_00:I don't know if we mentioned it last time. I got a new kitten. Rachel did too. Her name is Charlie. She is a troublemaker.
SPEAKER_01:That is. She's so beautiful. Yeah. Charlie Catelyn. She's a lanky tuxedo kitty, and she has gorgeous amper eyes. And she's a little hellraiser.
SPEAKER_00:She is. She's a little demon spawn, but a very sweet one.
unknown:Oh my goodness.
SPEAKER_00:Except when it comes to one's nose. She likes to eat the nose.
SPEAKER_01:Here she goes.
SPEAKER_00:Yep.
SPEAKER_01:Hi, baby.
SPEAKER_00:Alright, so it's the DeFeo family murder that kicks us off. Um, really the trial more than anything. So in 1965, the DeFeo family moved to Amineville from Brooklyn. They bought the house at 112 Ocean Avenue. People described the family as being warm. That Ronnie Sr., who's the dad, was a very loving and protective father. We will get to other descriptions of him later. Louise, the mom, was described as being sweet. And four of the five children, Allison, Dawn, Mark, and John Matthew, were the younger kids. And um they were all described quite nicely. And Ronnie Jr. was the oldest. He's 23, not 1965, but when this all kicks off in uh 74, he's 23. So this all starts November 13th, 1974. Um, it's usually recorded at 3:15 a.m. Six people were shot to death, including four children. They were in three different rooms on different floors, and none of them had moved from their beds. So remember that part for later. That's gonna become important.
SPEAKER_01:So six people was the kids and the parents, or the kids and the parents. Okay.
SPEAKER_00:So it's important to remember they did not move from their beds, like at all. Yeah. And that it was three different bedrooms on two different floors. They were like killed while they were asleep. Yeah. Joel Martin was the first journalist on the scene. Now I'm gonna use journal journalist in quotation marks because a lot of his reporting, I think, was on aliens and things of that nature. So uh take it with a grain of salt.
SPEAKER_01:So should his reporting in this instance be taken with a grain of salt also?
SPEAKER_00:Um, I don't think so. I he doesn't really have much. I it's just this one particular introduction that he is a part of. Okay. He said when he got there, crowd had already gathered along with the police and other responders. And despite the fact that there are so many people in town, the scene is actually very, very quiet. Not one person is talking. And they just sort of watch as they carry the bodies out. And he says one of the things that he remembers the most is that they accidentally dropped one of the kids in the body bags. That's awful. And the f the um, I guess it wasn't a body bag, but uh whatever the shade or whatever came off and you could see the bullet hole. Yeah. Mr. Martin spoke to some of the kids who lived nearby, and they told him that dogs started to bark sometime between 3 and 3 30 a.m. Now note here that no one said they heard gunshots. That's also gonna become important later. So in this documentary I saw, and this is a four-parter documentary, I think I actually talked about it on a previous episode.
SPEAKER_01:It sounded a BTK killer, was it? This kind of sounds like his MO.
SPEAKER_00:No, it's not him. So you actually don't know this story. I'm not sure. Okay. If I know it or not. Okay. I talked about this documentary before. It's a four-parter on MGM Plus. It's all about Amityville.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I don't have MGM Plus, so probably not.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I mean, the the murder uh usually any discussion of Amityville has at least a little bit of the murder in it. But so, um, in the footage that they have on this or in this um documentary is at a news conference, and the police said that six members of the DeFeo family had been shot and killed. Now, somebody asked about the family dog, and um the dog remained alive, as well as one family member, the oldest son, Ronnie. The police officer said Ronnie was at the police station being safeguarded, and that is the term he used. One of the reporters asked if Ronnie was a suspect, and the police said that he was not. Why not? We'll get to that. Okay. So that night, Ronnie's friend, Tommy Mayer, uh, in this interview, said that they had been at Henry's, which I think is a bar, because they said that they were playing craps on the pool table. And he said that he had left, uh, Ronnie had left and come back three or four times. He said he didn't really think anything of it because it was normal for him. However, one of the things that was unusual is that one of the times Ronnie came back, he told Tommy that the mob had just killed his father. So this is the night after the family had been killed. So this is no the evening of November 13th. So Tommy didn't actually know that the whole family had been killed until he got home later that night and saw it on the news. So no one knew what happened, and the police apparently were baffled, at least for a bit of time. And that led to a lot of rumors, including that it was a mafia hit, partly because Ronnie mentioned it, but partly also because Louise's father attended the service with a gun, which seemed to confirm that idea. But there are other reasons for the mafia rumor. So Ronnie Sr. apparently looked a bit like a mafia guy, like the stereotype of a mafia guy, at least as depicted in movies. And Don's friend, Dawn was the oldest daughter, claimed in the documentary that the DeFeos were actually involved in the mafia. And we're also going to come back to that bit in a minute. So Ronnie Jr. and his dad didn't always get along. This is an important point. They butted heads quite a bit, and according to Tommy, again, he's Ronnie's friend, Ronnie was a bit of a wise ass and didn't think that rules should apply to him. He did what he wanted, he went where he wanted, and he went home when he wanted. He had also attempted to shoot his father the year before. And he claimed that his father, uh, so Ronnie claimed that his father had been beating his mother. So he put the gun to his dad's temple and pulled the trigger, but the gun jammed. After that incident, Ronnie Sr. became very religious, uh, and maybe even lost his mind a little bit. He put a statue of Saint Joseph outside their house. That's not that uncommon for Catholics. Around here, people do it all the time. But um What does St. Joseph do? I don't know. He is uh Mary's husband. Yeah. He's got this statue of Saint Joseph, which again, not that big of a deal, right? Uh around here we get lots of people who have statues outside. But he even told people that he had a hotline to Saint Joseph, like he could directly speak to Saint Joseph. And according to neighbors, he would sometimes run out of the house in the middle of the night or even during the day in his boxer shorts and pray to the saint. He told a family friend even at dinner that he knew what side Jesus was stabbed on because he was personally at the crucifixion. So that kind of gives you an indication of where his mind was at the time. So Don's friend described Ronnie Jr. as being a drug user, a drunk, and basically a deadbeat. He didn't seem to work but lived off of his parents and his grandfather. Now, eventually, and I'm not sure how long after the murders it was, Ronnie Jr. did become a suspect. In part because his story kept changing. So in interviews with police, he displayed a lot of angry feelings towards his parents and towards his family in general. Now, in a jailhouse interview years later, Ronnie, and I'm not sure if these interviews were specifically for this documentary or if they were from earlier and they were just put in. I'm not sure. But Ronnie Jr. said that he was doing a lot of heroin at the time and would experience blackouts. He said he had gone upstairs and found everyone dead, so he ran out, drove to his friend's house, and brought them back. The friends went inside while Ronnie stayed outside. But then in talking to police, he said that he could see his brother's leg twitching, which indicated that he had to have been there during the crime. Right. So he told police that he had thrown the gun in the South Bay, and they were able to recover it. It was a 35 caliber Marlin, so remember that. He also admitted to burying some bloody clothing he had been wearing in a street sewer in Queens County, New York City, and they were able to recover that as evidence as well. Eventually, he did admit to murdering the family. But again, in that same jailhouse interview, um Ronnie admits to the killings on camera. Um, wait, I feel like I missed something. Hold on. Oh, I did. Okay. Okay, yeah. Sorry, I did miss something. Let's go back. So eventually he admitted to murdering his family. Dawn's friend says she wasn't surprised that Ronnie did it. But Ronnie's friend Tommy was he he claims that he thinks either Ronnie was scared, that the cops beat it out of him, which is what Ronnie claimed later, or that he was threatened by the mafia is what he was getting at. We'll get to that in a second.
SPEAKER_01:Just gotta hang up with a mafia, huh?
SPEAKER_00:We'll get to it. So um again, later in that same jailhouse interview, Ronnie admits to the killings on camera. Now, those mafia rumors persisted. His maternal grandfather, Michael Brigante, in fact, was caught on tape by the Brooklyn DA's office who were investigating his ties to Joe Columbo. Joe Columbo was head of the Columbo crime family. Okay, so at least his grandfather was very much in with the mafia. And what was caught on tape was he was wondering what would happen if Ronnie got off, like if the jury found him not guilty, because he knew too much about the business. And I don't think he was talking about the used car business that they had. Yeah. So Braganti hired a private investigator, former detective Herman Race, to try and find a motive because nobody can really figure out why Ronnie did it. There was a$200,000 life insurance policy, but they don't really know if he really believed he would get it or not. Yeah. Okay. So remember I told you that the victims never moved. Yes. Okay. And they were in different rooms on different floors.
SPEAKER_01:Yep.
SPEAKER_00:So that led Race and others to believe that there was no way DeFeo did it on his own, right? Right. So the rifle is loud. This is a rifle. This is not a a pistol. So the gun only holds six bullets, eight were fired, which means he had to reload. And it's a lever trigger, meaning that you have when you after you pull the trigger in order to shoot again, you have to pull the lever down in order to eject the shell, push it back up, and then you can sorry, I'm holding my phone up in the air so that the QB cat won't eat it. So you have to pull the lever down to eject the shell casing, push it back up and in order to pull the trigger again. So it with a pistol, you can just keep pulling the trigger. In other words, this gun is loud. There's seconds at least between sh between the bullets, plus he had to reload.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_00:So if you were anybody, even if you were in the same room, because there were like two to a room, you would have at least heard it. Yeah. There's no way you would have slept through it, and you would have at least moved. Okay. But again, not one person moved. They didn't move, they were in the sleeping position. So they were killed and then moved there to the beds? Hold on. So there was no indication that any of them even so much as sat up. And in fact, every single one of the victims were in their own beds on their stomachs. Now, I immediately thought that maybe they had been drugged, but apparently they did a tox and they weren't. They were not moved because in the crime scene photos you can clearly see that they were shot in the bed.
SPEAKER_01:Could they have been drugged with something that was not detectable by like standard tox screen?
SPEAKER_00:It's possible. I mean, I would assume so, but it's also weird that they're all on their stomachs. Yeah. Like, I mean, I know people who are related tend to sleep similarly, but all six of them on their stomachs.
SPEAKER_01:That is weird.
SPEAKER_00:So there was talk of this whole thing at the trial, as well as testimony from an optometrist that said that Ronnie didn't have the eyesight to shoot them as expertly as they did. They were expertly shot. Now, if you know anything at all about Amityville, um, and I don't know what you call it legend or whatever, you know that a lot of people believe that Ronnie was possessed at the time of the murders. Okay, guys, I apologize if you can hear that background noise. I don't know if I'm gonna be able to clean it up.
SPEAKER_01:Katie has a scone bag.
SPEAKER_00:She is. She's my girl. Okay. Um, so he claimed in his interrogation that he had heard voices, and two psychiatrists examined him before the trial. Both agreed that he killed his entire family. However, they differed on their opinion of how aware he was of what he was doing.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:The psychiatrist for the prosecution, Dr. Harold Solon, said that Ronnie had antisocial personality disorder. He also believed that he was in his right mind enough that he could toss the gun in the bay and throw the buddy bloody clothes in the sewer in New York. The defenses psychiatrist, though, Dr. Daniel Schwartz, said that Ronnie had a classic case of paranoid psychosis and that the murder was triggered by a movie called Castle Keep, which is a movie set during World War II.
SPEAKER_01:Why do they always try and blame her on movies?
SPEAKER_00:And that Ronnie had been watching them. I don't know. And Castle Keep has nothing to do with shooting family members. It's a pro-war, anti-war at the same time type of movie. Yeah. Like, I mean, I guess it's bloody, but I don't know why that would trigger you to go and kill your family instead of just killing random people. If any if it's gonna trigger you, it would be random people.
SPEAKER_01:Like if you watch like Save Me Private Ryan or something, then you're like, let's murder my family. Yeah, it does.
SPEAKER_00:It makes zero sense. Makes zero sense. Okay. So Schwartz believed that he had never learned to control his emotions, and that Ronnie truly believed he was going to be killed. And so because of that, he had to kill first. Now, Ronnie also had been going for an insanity defense, and allegedly he demanded that the guards in prison write down every instance that he had an insane moment, which kind of shows that he probably did not have a bout of insanity. Right. The jury didn't buy it, and in fact, they took 15 minutes to deliberate and came back with six guilty verdicts. He was sentenced to six consecutive terms of 25 years to life in prison. Now, Ronnie tried for a new trial, claiming that his lawyer coerced him into the insanity defense in order to capitalize on potential movie and book deals. He also claimed that he and Don, his sister, plotted to kill their parents together, and it was she who killed the younger siblings, and then he killed her in self-defense while wrestling for the rifle. Which is bullshit. She was that's not how she was shot. Yeah. He also claimed that she killed at uh late at another time. He also claimed that she killed everyone, and when he discovered the bodies, he was then in a fit of rage and killed her.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:That way.
SPEAKER_01:That's very convenient.
SPEAKER_00:She's dead. Yeah, and she's sleeping in her bed. And she's Yeah, it's ridiculous. Okay. So he died in prison in 2021. I have more stuff to say, but I wanted to go back to the they were all in their beds laying down. Um, I don't remember if I bring it up again. But uh the private investigator's son thinks that someone else was there with Ronnie, that Ronnie did do some of the killings, but maybe not all. That somebody was there and like maybe they shot the parents first.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_00:And then told the kids, like, everything's fine, just go back to bed, lie on your stomachs, I don't want to see your face.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And like tried to pacify them and then they killed them that way. Yeah. Um I mean, there has to be a logical explanation unless you buy the possession. I, as I said before, I'm not gonna talk about the Lutzes or really the books or the movies, but I do want to say that the crime kind of happens at the right moment for all of that stuff with the Lutzes and the Warrens and the books and the movies.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_00:Because while interest in the paranormal hauntings, mediumship possessions go way, way, way, way, way back. Even in the middle uh middle ages, they had hauntings and shit, right? As does investigation into it. In the 1970s, there seemed to have been a huge uptick in interest with the general public. Like it wasn't just some people, it was seemed to be everybody or most everyone in the paranormal and the occult. And at the same time, there was a lot of new technology that people were using to investigate the paranormal. So there were like new camera techniques, new recording techniques, things like that. Again, I'm not going to talk about the more famous stuff, but I did want to talk about Dr. Hans Holzer. Uh, I don't know if he was a real doctor. I somehow doubt that very much. You're right. He was, though, a famed paranormal investigator. Although I don't think unless you're really into paranormal investigation, that you would really know who he was anymore. But at the time he was like the thing.
SPEAKER_01:No wonder, like, white men are so mad they're like, remember the good old days when I could just rock up and claim that I was a doctor or something.
SPEAKER_00:So um I think nowadays he gets overshadowed by the Warrens. Yeah. Uh, but he was at the time a truly big deal in the paranormal investigative world. I think he wrote like over a hundred books or something. And he also investigated the Amityville House and the murders. And in fact, he wrote a couple of books on the subject. Now, when he went to investigate the house, uh, he didn't claim to have any special powers himself, so he would use like mediums and folks like that. And so he used a famed medium, Ethel Myers, uh, as well as photographs they took that included the uh pictures of bullet holes in the wall and it had halos around them, which they felt indicated it was haunted or whatever. So in his first book, though, he claims that the house was built on ancient indigenous burial ground. God. And that Ronnie had been possessed by an angry spirit, specifically the chief of that particular tribe. That's not surprising because in the 1970s there was a huge uptick in interest in indigenous peoples and culture because they were rebelling a lot, like they overtook Alcatraz and all of that. So, um, that was Holzer's belief. And part of why he gets that is because, well, not just the medium, but many decades earlier, there were apparently some very old skeletons that were believed to be from the local indigenous peoples that were found very close to where all of this had happened, and they had been exposed after a rainstorm. And according to accounts, a young boy broke off the head of one of these skeletons and began to kick it around like it was a ball. And Holzer then, in an interview, very, you know, gravely says, and that's when this all happened. Holzer actually talked to Ronnie in person twice and he recorded those interviews. And in these conversations, Ronnie told Holtzer that he and other members of the family had heard what sounded like people walking around and nobody was actually walking around. Occasionally they would hear screaming, but no one was screaming. And Ronnie claimed that his mother believed that the devil was in the house. So one of the things that Holzer's daughter finds interesting about all of this, and I assume then that he did too, I haven't read the books, is that no one heard the gunshots. That's the other thing. They heard dogs barking, but nobody heard any gunshots.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And this the house isn't like out in the woods somewhere. Like people live like on top of each other. Right. You know, like you'd think you would hear it. So according to Holtzer's daughter, he believed that in cases of possession, the sound of gunshots won't be heard outside the house. So that's his explanation.
SPEAKER_01:Very convenient.
SPEAKER_00:Yes. Uh and the running one, since that's the only explanation anybody will give, because everybody else is like, oh no. Yeah. Um, so anyway, it didn't end very well. That's all I got. Um, I'm out of practice in doing this since we haven't recorded anything since July. And you did that one night. I think I haven't done anything since at least May, probably. Horse one. Yeah, horpses. Um, so yeah, that is the DeFeo murder. I felt like it was Halloween adjacent since Amityville is usually shown around Halloween.
SPEAKER_01:Definitely.
SPEAKER_00:So and this should be coming out around Halloween.
SPEAKER_01:What do you think? Do you think Ronnie was possessed?
SPEAKER_00:No, I don't think he was possessed. I think he was a fucktard who killed his family.
SPEAKER_02:No doubt.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, like at the time, I don't know, maybe it didn't happen as often, but nowadays, like, I I belong to People Magazine True Crime Email.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:It comes every day. And it's like at least every other day there is a family annihilation. Like this is not unique, right? I don't know. Maybe it was unique in 1974.
SPEAKER_01:Right. But how do they know that the dog barking occurred around the same time that the murders occurred?
SPEAKER_00:The kids said that and they gave the time. But it's only the kids that say that. I don't know if the police said that or if anybody else said that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:It was just that journalist in quote marks saying that the kids said that.
SPEAKER_01:Because that seems like sure, I'm sure there are more dogs barking, but like maybe those gunshots occurred at a completely different time.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Um, I think they know what time it was, but I don't remember how they know what time it is.
SPEAKER_01:Don't they usually just have like an estimated time of death?
SPEAKER_00:They usually do, but um, they keep saying 3 15 a.m., which is pretty specific. So I wonder if like a watch stopped or something.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um. Or maybe Ronnie said it because he does admit that he killed them. Yeah. So, um, let's Google that now. Um, documentary says 3 15 very explicitly. The neighbor kid apparently said that he heard his family's sheepdog barking at 3 a.m. The police say that Ronnie uh committed said to them that he committed the murders around 3 30 a.m. So maybe they're just decided to pick the the middle ground. Yeah. Or maybe it's in one of the books. So sometime between 3 and 3.30 a.m. You're so distracted with the kitty. I am. No, I think he was just a fucked hard. What about you? I know you don't think he was possessed, but No.
SPEAKER_01:Sounds like he was a fucked hard.
SPEAKER_00:Do you think he did it alone though?
SPEAKER_01:Maybe not. Yeah. Yeah. Cause like subduing all of those people like by yourself.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, again, unless he puts something in there that is undetected, but I don't know how he would get a hold of something like that. Yeah, I don't know. Great question. Or how he would even know. I mean, I'm sure it would be possible for him since he was a drug user. Hey, Charlie, come on, be nice. Okay. So I guess there's not really anything to talk about since both of us are non believers. Right.
SPEAKER_01:Who do you think it would have been his? Accomplice his friend, no.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Or I mean it I mean maybe he knew somebody in the mob. I mean he would have had to have known his grandpa was in the mob. Like everybody knew that they were in the mob.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:You know? So maybe he got someone that way. Promised them something. I mean, if the motive was$200,000, plus the house, I imagine he would get the house as well, which was not cheap. That's a big house, even by today's standards. I don't know. Yeah. Somebody had to have helped him.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think so.
SPEAKER_00:Unless he drugged him. Yeah, and I don't think Ronnie gave any explanation either.
SPEAKER_01:Watch the FBI is probably going to be monitoring, they're going to be like, what is this search? Because I'm searching what sedatives are untraceable by the Well, and remember, more were untraceable in the 70s, probably. Yeah, that says there were a lot of limitations to toxicology screening. Early drug tests often relied on basic techniques like color spot tests, thin layer, chromatography, and early immune assay screens. They were not highly specific and often targeted only the parent drug, not its metabolites, meaning drugs that were quickly metabolized and excreted were frequently missed. No uh mass spectrometry for routine use. While the first commercial uh gas chromatography mass spectrometry GCMS instruments were introduced in the 1970s, the technology was prohibitively expensive and not used for routine toxicology testing. GCMS is the modern gold standard for drug confirmation due to its accuracy, but its absence in standard labs at the time created a huge blind spot. The primary focus of drug testing in the 70s was a limited number of drugs such as morphine, cocaine, PCP, and some barbiturates. Barbiturates. Many substances, including new types of sedatives and a range of other drugs, were not even including standard testing panels. And the detection time for many drugs in the 1970s was far shorter than today, largely because testing technology was not sensitive enough to find low concentrations or metabolites. Yeah. So it's definitely possible that they were drugged. That would be my guess.
SPEAKER_00:And I bet probably mom had some of that. That was quite common to prescribe back then. And even if it wasn't, I mean, if he can get heroin and whatever else, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I'm sure he could get some. Other stuff. Yep. Yeah. And he's got some kind of yeah, drug dealer. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Shall we talk about what we've seen since then? We haven't really seen anything this month.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, I went to CrimeCon.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Nice. Should I talk about that? Like, yes, let's hear about that.
SPEAKER_00:So I know by the time this comes out, it's been almost two months since CrimeCon. Yeah. But um, like we've had a it's been a month.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Um and it feels like it's been no time at all because as soon as you got back, the thing happened.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah. I went to CrimeCon. It was in Denver this year. Um, I paid an exorbitant amount of money um for the privilege of having them the big VIP badge um called the diamond. I think they need to improve a little on it, but some of the best things are that, well, one, just like with the platinum, you get a five-minute meet and greet, private meet and greet with somebody. I got Matt Murphy again. He was very nice. And you're also guaranteed to have at least a relatively well-known true crime person sit at your table for the Clue Awards. Yeah. And we got I got to sit next to Paul Holes, who's also very nice.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um, John Walsh was there again this year. I did not speak to him or meet him again, but I did see him around.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And I got to see my friends. Hi, Shablis. Hi, Sean. Hi. Good to see you guys. And um, we hung out quite a bit.
SPEAKER_01:Sending hellos and nice words in my direction. Yes. Thank you for that. Yeah, they are uh they're good people. Sorry, I'm not very funny this week.
unknown:It's okay.
SPEAKER_00:Uh yeah, maybe we have some new listeners. At least they listen to uh some of our older ones.
SPEAKER_01:They listen until they realize that we're not putting out in podcasts.
SPEAKER_00:Well, if you are still listening, it was nice meeting you all, and thank you. And what else happened? It was it was a good crime con. It was fun. Um there were some really interesting panels. Matt Murphy did his um uh uh he did also a special one for VIPs only with his friend, which was also really fun. It was about um uh witness identification, and I learned that contrary to my own personal belief, I would be a terrible witness. Yeah. I couldn't pick out a single person. I wasn't even remotely close.
SPEAKER_01:Um we're probably all similar and like out here thinking, oh, we would remember Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I I think that was kind of the point of the thing is that very few people are actually good at it. Particularly if it's something that's not happening, right? If it's like there are different things happening. So the situation was that something happened to Matt, right? Like his microphone stopped working, and so you're focused on the stage hand trying to get his microphone to work, and you're not really noticing that another stage hand has come out and grabbed his um oh god, I'm losing the name of it. Uh Briefkicks? No, it's kind of like a hole punch, but it's not a hole punch. A hole punch. Um, um like it's kind of like a stapler?
unknown:No.
SPEAKER_00:I know. It's for yeah, it's it's for books. Or like um sometimes governments ha buildings have it. Oh, like a notary? A notary type thing. Yeah. Yeah. Notary stamp. Um but for it's for his books. I got one on uh on the book that I bought of his. And um it's gonna kill me because I it has a specific word, but whatever. Anyway, it has one of those things. That was he was had been holding it up beforehand and that had got taken, right? And so in a situation like that, if you're fixated on the initial problem, right, then you're not noticing all the the actual crime. Yeah. So yeah, it was kind of an eye-opener, and it made me realize that I'm probably uh don't remember things accurately. I mean, I always knew I kind of didn't. I most people, I don't think, remember things accurately all the time. But you know, you can be so sure somebody's wearing like a red shirt and it turns out they're wearing like a blue shirt or something. Yeah. Like I absolutely 100% thought the dude had facial hair.
SPEAKER_01:Right, and he didn't.
SPEAKER_00:He had no facial hair.
SPEAKER_01:There's an episode of The Office where they're like, they're like, oh, some somebody makes a comment about Stanley's mustache, and then they're like, wait, does Stanley have a mustache? And and they're trying to remember, they're like voting on whether or not Stanley has a mustache, and then Pam like does two drawings of Stanley, like one with a mustache and one without one. She holds him, she's like, Quick, which one? Which one? And they're trying to guess, and then like Stanley walks in, they like cover his face, and then they like reveal it, and he does have a mustache. But like during that second, when they're like, Does he have a mustache? You're like, wait, does he? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:You think you know, and he may or may not, yeah. Yeah, so oh, ice tea was at crime con. He he did the clue awards because I'm gonna go to the house. I saw him at a commercial yesterday. Yeah, we did. I was like, hey, is that iced tea? You thought I was talking about the drink.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, because she had brought me iced tea, and I was like, Yeah, it was iced tea.
SPEAKER_00:Um yeah, I didn't get to meet him. I saw him in the elevator, but he had the like don't talk to me face, so I didn't talk to him. I think that's just his face, Katie. It might just be his face, but I still I it can't be it can't be fun.
SPEAKER_01:You yeah, and you're not sure, so it's like err on this side of caution.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I'd much rather have a nice memory than a like.
SPEAKER_01:I'm sure I see his like resting cranky face.
SPEAKER_00:I'm sure he does. I'm sure he does. Um he seems like a nice guy. Yeah. But yeah, so anyway, uh lots of interesting panel uh not panels, but well yeah, panels and speakers, and it gets better and better every year. There are a lot of really fun things. Oh, and since it was in Denver, they had some local retired officers, uh I think they retired at level of detective or sergeant or something. Um, but they had been at the Aurora um theater shooting, and so they did a whole thing on that talking about like response times and like how hard it was to coordinate everything and figure everything out and get help for everybody and all of that stuff. It was really interesting. You have I I came away with it with a little more like it has to be confusing. It has to be confusing. No matter how good you are at it, no matter how much you train, I don't think the real thing is ever gonna, you know, right live up to the to the training. So um yeah, and like and it's it was also nice to have an inside account of like what was going through everybody's minds and how people were thinking, and you know, and there were there were facts that I that they brought in that I didn't know about the shooter himself and and things like that. So it was a really interesting uh talk. Those are the ones I remember. I have slept since then.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So I don't really remember a few times, a few times, but it was it was a nice weekend, it was a good weekend. I had a good time. Okay.
SPEAKER_01:I'm not gonna drink. How'd that work out?
SPEAKER_00:I did, I did drink a little bit. I I didn't drink much, yeah. We're a mile in the air, so it didn't take much to get me going. But thankfully I was giggly.
SPEAKER_01:So when you say a mile in the air, it reminds me of like a Skyrim glitch where you're like in the dungeon and then suddenly you're like falling through the sky. Oh yeah. You like fall and you like land in the dungeon and fall again. Oh no. Or sometimes you can see it from like, you know, like 3D, like like you're outside when you can see inside, but it's like 3D in the sky. Skyrim players know what I'm talking about. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I highly recommend if you go. I mean, I'm not giving you great details on it, but it was a it was a good time. Yeah, it's a really good time. So, okay, so what did we watch since then? We really only went to one movie, right?
SPEAKER_01:Um, well, we went to we went to a couple of the roses. Oh yeah. Yeah. When we w saw a Fantastic Four. Fantastic Four, the new I Know What You Did Last Summer. Yeah. But yeah, the past few months we haven't seen anything. Yeah, we haven't seen anything since August doing other things. Yeah. So a lot of good movies have come out, but Katie won't see like the really good horror movies with me. She's like, that looks scary. That looks scary. Like in I Know What You Did Last Summer, the trailers, everyone. She was like, I'm not seeing that, I'm not seeing that, I'm not seeing that.
SPEAKER_00:No, no, no. But you gotta give me props. I saw two horror movies this year with you.
SPEAKER_01:They're kind of horror movies. I mean, there are horror movies, but like, you know, they're easy mode horror movies.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I'm easy mode. I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_01:She's gonna see weapons. She wants to see Bring Her Back. She wants to see Together. What else? You don't want to see Black Phone 2.
SPEAKER_00:No. I mean, come on, even Death of a Unicorn, even though I loved that movie, I was still watching most of it with my eyes closed.
SPEAKER_01:You know, my hands over my eyes. You gotta watch more so you can build up your torrents. How can you go and you can like see whatever probably like crime scene photos in horror? None of it's real. It's all fake.
SPEAKER_00:I think because uh when it's a movie like that, like they're they're either making it silent or they're making they have the music, and then you know about what could potentially happen. And I think that makes me very uncomfortable.
SPEAKER_01:This is all like the suspense makes you uncomfortable. Yeah. That's what makes it good.
SPEAKER_00:No, I I don't like that feeling. But I I mean, again, I was light, but I went and saw the new I Know What You Did Last Summer, which was really fun. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. You liked it a lot too. I did. I did. It was fun. It had a lot of nostalgia, yeah. But not too too much, I thought. I thought the people who are fans of the first movies, I think that it had a lot of nods to us, old millennials. Yeah. And but I think that if you have not seen them, that you could go into this one blind and still have a good time.
SPEAKER_00:And I love that it played with the old trope, like it turned all of that on its head and all the old tropes. And I think it was written and directed uh by women.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think so.
SPEAKER_00:And the majority of the main actors were women.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I think. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So and somebody predicted the killer accurately. She sure did.
SPEAKER_00:I'm glad she didn't tell me about it first. Because I mean, I'll be honest, I wasn't totally surprised, but I was surprised. Yeah. Um, I think because I didn't want that to be the case.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you don't want it to be, but there's I won't I won't say because then it will give it away. Yeah. So you will have to go see it. Yeah, I won't say anymore.
SPEAKER_00:And then yeah, we saw War of the Roses, which is based on a book from the 80s, but also there is a 90s remake. I loved the 90s version with Michael Douglas and Kathleen Turner. That one was definitely like more balls to the walls, like wack-a-doodle, like the things that they did to each other were like truly, truly awful. But this one was good too.
SPEAKER_01:I it was hilarious. Yeah, I thought it was very funny. And I thought it was gonna be boring. Not gonna lie. I was like, this is gonna be a long, boring movie. Yeah, but it was not, I was very entertained.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I laughed a lot.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Olivia Coleman was great, Benedict Cumberbatch was great. Um, Kate McKinnon. Kate McKinnon. She was always always wonderful. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:She like stole all the scenes that she was.
SPEAKER_00:She she sure did. Yeah, it was a good movie. That was a fun time. And we saw Fantastic Four, which I mean, it's got Daddy Pascal in it, so no matter what, it was good.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it had a lot of like kind of nostalgic feel as well. Yeah, yeah. Um for sure.
SPEAKER_00:So yeah, and you can tell the cast actually really like each other.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:In the movie. That's true. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I'm not a Fantastic Four expert, so you either. Um Jay will have some thoughts about it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I mean, I'm not I'm not saying it's the greatest movie of that type ever made, but it I don't regret spending the money. I thought it was better than the old one. Definitely. Definitely better than the old one.
SPEAKER_01:Although sorry, Chris Evans. Although, yeah, I was bummed because Jessica Alba was in the old one. And like the new actress who plays Sue Storm. Yeah, I think so. She's very skinny, which is fine. Yeah. But Jessica Alba is curvy. I thought she was also really skinny. Yeah, she's skinny, but she's got some she's got some curves. She's got some hip. You know, like in cartoon, like the the Incredibles or whatever, and like the the mom is like, she's got these hips, you know. Like all the fucking cartoon moms, like Tammy's mom and fairly odd parents, for some reason all the cartoon moms like have hip and ass. Yeah. And so I was like, where's the, you know? Yeah. Like I mean, that's her body, which is good, you know. But I was like, You were hoping for some more curvy representation. Curvy representation, exactly. Although I feel like we're not in the era of curvy representation. I don't think we've ever. When have we ever been in the era of curvy representation? Kind of a little bit. People were like, let's kind of be a little bit more accepting. Although even even then they weren't like really fully accepting. Because then they're still like, are we whatever encouraging unhealthiness and shit like that? But now we're like fully in the like whatever heroin chic Osempic, even if you were already like a normal, healthy weight.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So well, I I don't think it's still as bad as it was when we were youngers.
SPEAKER_01:She just looks like that. She just looks like she's naturally. Yeah, she's naturally thin. She doesn't look some curvy representation. She doesn't have that like, you know, like wasted ozembic look.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, she's yeah, she's naturally her size, I think. Yeah. Yeah, but I don't think we're as bad as we were when we were in high school and early colleges.
SPEAKER_01:Maybe not, but it's I don't know, because we're our age now, and like I don't know what it's like for well that's true, but I I just mean in terms of like even on TV, like back then you had to have your ribs showing in order to be considered skinny. Yeah, skinny show like somebody like Kate Winslett or whatever, who's perfectly lovely and skinny. Yeah. And they would be like, oh, she's fat, and like try and show like a certain even like I'm like, you cannot get an unflattering angle of this woman. No. Like, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Even uh Jennifer Love Hewitt, she she once said on a talk show, I'll never forget it, she said, uh, it's really hard being a size four and being the largest person in the room. Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah. Yeah. And she yeah, and she came out talk uh Yeah, you're right. The I know what you did last summer um stuff, she was getting shit for her body. Yep, yeah. Yeah. She looks amazing. She looks amazing. And she's also what, like in her fifties? Yeah. And had kids. Like, what do you think?
SPEAKER_01:It's it's so she's not gonna be 20 forever. It's still so shitty, like everything with like being a femme person, because yeah, like no matter what you do or how you are, you can't win. No. Right? Like if you age naturally, people are like, oh, you're gross and old. Yeah. And if you gain weight, people are gonna be like, oh, you're gross and fat. Yeah. If you whatever get plastic surgery, do stuff to like, you know, stay looking younger, and then they're like, ew, you're gross and had all this plastic surgery. Yeah. So yeah. Yeah. Okay. No.
SPEAKER_00:Even in private, it's not easy.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, very true.
SPEAKER_00:Because even if other people aren't hard on you, you're kind of hard on yourself. Yeah, because you anticipate other people being hard on you.
SPEAKER_01:Because everything in society tells you to be.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, so what about books? You've read quite a bit. How about your top your top two or three?
SPEAKER_01:Okay, well, let me peruse really quick and see what books that I have read since then, and then I can give you my top. I'll try and keep it a two or three. That's rough.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, well, while you're looking, I'll say what I've read uh since then. I've read exactly two books. Both in the last week. One is called On Agoraphobia. Um, I forget who the author is. It's nonfiction about a man who has agoraphobia. And that was really uh interesting. Not a lot is written about agoraphobia, and as somebody who has mild agoraphobia, um, it was nice to read. Uh, although his agoraphobia is very, very different than mine. And um I also reread The Blue Castle, which is one of my all-time favorite books. I'm in the middle of rereading The Iliad, and I am also in the middle of reading a book called Uh History of Philosophy.
SPEAKER_01:So I was looking at One List and then I realized I don't know, I think it showed the date that the book was added to Goodreads or something, and not when I actually read it. So I think that I talked about that uh Sasquatch book, right? Shadow Killer. I talked about that one, right? I don't know, maybe. I read it in the middle of July, it looks like. So since then, books that I've read that were really good. Uh Bat Eater and Other Names for Korazang by Kylie Lee Baker. That was a really good book about uh basically um racism against Asian people in during the COVID pandemic, and there is some supernatural stuff going on. That's about all I'm gonna say because I don't want to really spoil it. Um but it also has like you know, the people who clean up like after like dust and stuff like that. What are they called?
unknown:I don't know.
SPEAKER_01:I don't know. But you know, you know what I'm talking about. I know what you're like sunshine cleaning, like that. So if if that interests you and the other stuff interests you, then yeah, I would recommend that. It was a really good book. Um Art Violet and the Infinite Eye. I really enjoyed. You have to read uh August Kitko first by Alex White, Star Metal Symphony. Um, I think it's gonna be a trilogy. Yeah. So yeah, I really recommend that. And I don't see a lot of attention being paid to it at all. No, yeah, we talked about that one. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um you hadn't read it yet, we were gonna read it together.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I have read it. Did you finish it? I haven't finished it yet. Um I read the second Dungeon Crawler Carl. That was excellent. Yes, those are great books. Uh, what else that was really notable? Um, yeah, I enjoy this Voyage of the Dam by Francis White. That was kind of a fun fantasy mystery, mysticy kind of story. And it was kind of like fun, quirky, like millennial humor, yeah. Um fat representation. So that's a good one. Uh disability representation. Um The Butcher's Daughter, that the book uh caused me all kinds of trouble. That one was a really good one, though. I gave that five stars. So if you are a fan of like Sweeney Todd, it's like the story of Mrs. Lovett, and it's called told in the like epistolary what is yeah style, which I really enjoy. Um and then the last two. I am skipping some. It doesn't sound like I'm skipping it, but I am. She reads a lot, y'all. Blood Slaves by Marcus Redmond. So that was very much trigger warning. So if you're if you're I saw some some reviews and they were like, there were a lot of like violence and stuff in this. Y'all, it is a horror book about the protagonists are slaves. So if that doesn't already tell you there's gonna be every trick, every trigger warning under the sun, yeah, there is every trigger warning under the sun. Yeah. So it's a dark read, but I think it's important, you know, to go into these things, eyes opened.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Like it's not supposed to make you feel comfy, cozy. Right. Um, and yeah, at the end, revenge. So love a good revenge. You gotta enjoy that. Um, and Witchcraft for Wayward Girls by Grady Hendrix. I really enjoyed that one. I feel like he's kind of hit or miss for me. Yeah, but I liked this one.
SPEAKER_00:So he's a miss for me every time.
SPEAKER_01:He could have gone a little harder on something, yeah. Um, but yeah, it was good and some part like it could have been edited down a little bit. Yeah. Other than that, really good. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. That's good. And we are, ooh, that made a loud noise. Uh we are together going to read Frankenstein for Halloween. Yep. So maybe next time when we record, we'll tell you how it went.
SPEAKER_01:I'm now reading three books simultaneously. What are the ones you're reading? I'm reading Bury Our Bones in the Midnight Soil by V.E. Schwab. Yep. The Buffalo Hunter Hunter by Stephen Graham Jones. And now I just started Dark Harvest by Norman Partridge. That one's a novello, so.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, yeah, we gotta read that. We were gonna read it together.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. It's on hoopla. Yeah. So I gotta find my copy. I don't know why I'm telling y'all, maybe it's not a hoopla in your library. Um Okay.
SPEAKER_00:So I guess that's it. We're gonna go get try and get you some bison since you're reading Buffalo Hunter Hunter.
SPEAKER_01:I'm gonna make a Blackfeet stew. So, and I wanted to get bison and it had been available for delivery for like the past year. I see it all the time. And now that I actually wanted to buy some, it's gone. Of course. That's our year, y'all. Yep. That's our year. So we're gonna go to the store like a sucker and pick out the bison in person.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So okay.
SPEAKER_00:We'll stop complaining about our crappy year. I mean, good things happen.
SPEAKER_01:We went to LA. I feel like we haven't talked that much compared to a lot of people. Yeah. And compared to what has happened, I feel like more complaining would could be warranted. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:No, I just mean we just keep saying 25 sucks. But I mean, we're also and it does, right? There's been, I mean, my grandma died, my cat died, Oli had died. We didn't talk about that either. Yeah. We but good things have happened. Went to CrimeCon, Rachel and I went to LA.
SPEAKER_01:We got tattoos. And we got tattoos. And we got tattoos, yep. Yeah. We got tattoos and kittens. And kittens. Not in LA. We got the kittens. We got the kittens, like, and a few days later we went to LA. Yeah. And then we came back and we still had kittens.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Um we went to LA for a specific reason. I'm not comfortable talking about it yet. We'll talk about it maybe closer towards the end of the year. Um that way the universe doesn't like kick me in the face again.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Um she was like, I don't know about this. Yeah. It was good. It was all good. It was good. Yeah. I was like, hey, let's try this kind of food.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. We went to a really bougie, richy place in Manhattan Beach.
SPEAKER_01:They made us sit outside. They didn't make us sit outside jerks.
SPEAKER_00:We weren't dressed for well for the kids. I mean, we were terrible.
SPEAKER_01:It was good, but I feel like we had better food at some of the Other places that weren't so bougie.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Well, you wanted to try your steak tartare. That's one of the main reasons we went there. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, our waiter was really great though.
SPEAKER_01:It was good. The steak tartare was really good, but it was like an appetizer, so I had like three bites and then it was done. Yeah. I was like, well, that was delicious. And now I'm still hungry.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that was that was like a$300 dinner. Yeah. And um, it was not filling. Yeah. We we stopped for like a huge ice cream cone on the way there. We did. To fill us up. Yeah. Um, but we got I I got to eat my Hawaiian food again. There's a wonderful King's Hawaiian, which is like real Hawaiian. That was a really good one. Um, and I'd had Portuguese sausage, which I haven't had in like 15 years. Um that was good. It was so good. Kalua pork, which I haven't had in 15 years. I had spam moosubi. Spam moosubi. We did we order like all the things? I think we ordered all the things. Well, I think I I ordered a plate that had most of the things.
SPEAKER_01:The spam mousubi was like an appetizer. Yeah. And I forget what I got. Oh, I it was like Poco Loco, but it had it was like, it was not the regular, it had something else. It had pork pork belly. That was it. Oh, pork belly is so good.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And then we got guava cake.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:We saw a lot of guava flavored things. So we decided to get ourselves a guava cake. Amazing guava turnovers from Chinatown. Oh, those were delicious. Those were so delicious. So yeah, we went to Chinatown. We got we uh got pictures in front of Bruce Lee. If you want to see mine, it's on my Instagram.
SPEAKER_01:Now they're gonna be like, y'all had a really good. Yeah. That was that was one week.
SPEAKER_00:That was one week.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it was one and it was it was good. But yeah, a lot of other things happened that weren't bad that unfortunately did not work. That bookended the good things. Yes, very much so.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, I mean, that was like that was like a really good thing, and it was good through August and into like the first week of September, and then things kind of sucked again. That's true. Okay, anyway, maybe we'll talk about everything someday if anybody's interested. Um, but maybe not.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Uh, but we will talk about why we the real reason we were in LA. It was not just to have um expensive food and tattoos.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, we could have gotten tattoos anywhere, but like my nose ring fell out, and uh like I need a new nose ring. And so we were we were calling around looking for a place that I could get, you know, like a new nose ring. And they also did tattoos and we were like, hey, let's get tattoos.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, because I'd been thinking about it for a while. We had been thinking and talking about it for a while. Yeah, and I was like, if I don't do it now, I probably won't do it. And then I came back and I got two more. Yep.
SPEAKER_01:Now she's addicted. Pretty soon she's gonna look like a pinup girl, y'all. Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_00:Uh but yeah, no, I am I'm getting, I think, two more. Yeah. Yeah. And then I think I'll be done for a while.
SPEAKER_01:Very close. You just need like a polka da bikini and some red lipstick. Put your hair in curlers. Yeah.
unknown:There you go.
SPEAKER_01:And then you can get a tattoo of yourself as a pinup girl. There you go. Very meta.
SPEAKER_00:All right. Um, so uh yes, that's everything. We're gonna try our best to get back on track.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um, forgive us if we don't. If we don't, it's because something really not great happened that that has prevented us. It's not that we don't want to.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, not that we're we're hoping or anticipating that more of bad things are happening, but we didn't hope or anticipate for the bad things that have already happened to happen, and they did anyway. Yes. So, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So, um, so thank you all for sticking with us. Uh, sorry for the big gap again. We'll get back to our regularly scheduled content, as they say. And um, if you could please email us. We would like to hear from you. What do you want us to talk about? Uh do you have any cases you want us to talk about or anything else you just want to tell us? Whatever. Yeah. Um, follow us on Instagram. Both the show has the the the podcast has the Instagram and the Facebook. Rachel and I also have our private Instagrams, which you can also follow us on. Yes. And um, I think download, subscribe, um review, review, comment, comment. All of that stuff really helps and we would appreciate it. And we will talk to you next time. Bye.
